Rich

I think you do with Edmonton what you accuse Jets fans doing with the Jets.

I was done with this thread, but noticed you mis-quoting what I said.Your way of thinking is keeping Pavelec out of fear that there's nothing better available. I guarantee there's better out there. How can we do worse than the worst starting goalie over the last few years? Can't do any worse. Think about that...can't do any worse than the worst. Bad decisions are made out of fear and that's what lead to Chevy's decision to sign Pavelec to that crippling extension. Read some of the articles in the links I posted earlier. There are always league average goalies available either through trade or free agency. Chevy has done an excellent job with the Jets, but Pavelec was a major mistake. Think about it another way. What's the cost/benefit of keeping Pavelec vs buying him out? Buyout costs about $6 million over two years, and minimal cap impact because we're not a cap team. How many home playoff games in revenue is TNSE losing out on (or lost already) by keeping Pavelec? That's extremely difficult to project, but you could argue that buying out Pavelec would pay for itself, and possibly even result in a profit. Saying signing another journeyman / UFA goalie will get the Jets into the playoffs so it makes sense to buy Pavelec out is a huge stretch. Look at Dallas and Colorado. Playoff teams last year and out of the playoffs this year. The margin of error and difference between the bottom 4 teams that make the playoffs and the top 4 teams that miss the playoffs in each conference is so small that simply replacing a goalie will not guarantee you make it. So many other things go into it during the course of a season. (Yes I know this will be your argument for getting a different goalie). Your darn right my reasons for keeping Pavelec is fear that there is nothing better. You keep saying how easy it is to go out and get another goalie, and this is one of the biggest issues I have with your arguments. Free agency is unpredictable. Are there goalies available? Yes. Does it mean the Jets are going to automatically going to get one? No. If you haven't noticed, Winnipeg isn't one of the choice off season destinations. Small market team ... cold climate ... live in a fish bowl .... team has a history of not making the playoffs ... I'm sure we are on top of the short list of all free agents. So the other option is trade for one. Getting rid of Pavelec BEFORE you go out and make that trade is foolish, because all the other GMs will know you are hooped and will bend you over to trade you a goalie that they don't want (assuming they have 2 starting calibre goalies ... if they only have 1 why the hell would they trade it). If we can upgrade Pavelec, great. But you don't put yourself in a position of weakness. You upgrade first.

Apparently Toby is only a semi competent backup

I thought you were done with this thread? When there are only 30 starting goaltenders in the league, League average is pretty much upper end. Funny how when someone can't win an argument they need to pull the "moderator" card like it is an abuse of powers to have an open debate on these forums. Maybe because we run the site we shouldn't post on it. Replace my post of "legit upper end starting goalie" with "average starting goalie" and it comes out to the same thing. But you still ignore all the other arguments I've made. Why do you think no one even drafts goalies in the first round anymore. They are so hit and miss with different systems, grooming, getting their shot at the right time, etc, that it is the one position that is near impossible to predict, unless you are getting one of the upper echelon proven goalies. Buying out Pavelec until there is a viable replacement that is a clear upgrade is not an option. Teams with proven goalies aren't going to trade them because then they will be in the exact same position the Jets are in now. But you don't want to hear that. You want to just get rid of Pavelec and assume there *must* be a deal to get a better goalie out there.

Yes I am aware of non-compliance buyouts and I told you why it would be a poor decision to use one over sending Pavelec down to the farm (if we were to decide you didn't want him anymore). And again you are living in your fantasy world of signing guys who were available in the past, not who is available in the now. Or throwing out statements like "I'm sure there is someone we can trade for". People here aren't overly happy with Pavelec, they just understand the realities of finding a legit upper end starting goalie in the NHL. You seem to miss that point.

Some of these suggestions here are ridiculous. In a previous post I suggested that TNSE buyout Pavelec, then sign or trade for a "league average" gosltender for the next couple years until Hellebuyck is ready. Price and Rinne are elite goaltenders. All I'm asking for is league average. Why would we buyout Pavelec? You do know the compliance buyouts from the lockout are over? And while you can technically still buy a player out, you don't get the benefits of no cap hit. Teams just never buy players out, and there is a reason for that. If the Jets decide they don't want Pavelec anymore, he will be sent to the minors in the hopes that A) Someone would pick him up off waivers or Want to trade for him down the road when injuries hit. He only has two years left so it would be the more prudent thing to do. As for signing or trading for a better then "average" goalie, you do realize that by definition half the goalies out there are below average. So who is going to trade us an "above average" goalie, and what are you prepared to give up to get him? Especially when you've said yourself you just want a stop gap for a couple of years. As for free agents, here are a few of the higher profile goalie free agents this year, which do you want that you would consider "better then average" Antti Niemi (whose stats this year are close to but a little worse then Pavelec), Viktor Fasth, Josh Harding, Karri Ramo, Devan Dubnyk (Be shocked if Minnesota doesn't sign him before UFA starts), Niemi is probably the most interesting of those names (Dubnyk aside), but the Jets aren't going to be looking to spend a whole lot of money after either buying Pavelec out or paying for his salary in the minors, and they would also be competing with other teams on salary out there. And I wouldn't say Niemi is a slam dunk of a goalie either, Goalies are such a strange bunch. Dubnyk was a journeyman goalie after being mired in Edmonton before going to Nashville and Arizona. He was so highly thought of (definitely would have been considered below "league average" ) that his current contract is for 800k with Arizona before being traded to Minnesota where he had his magical resurgence in front of that Minny D. It is so easy to sit there and say Pavelec is below average and we should trade or sign better. In practice it is much harder, with goalies more so then any other position. Proven consistent goalies just aren't traded (unless you are dysfunctional like Vancouver, but they traded away their goalies already). UFA goalies are going to be hit and miss, you are likely going to be taking a chance on a below average goalie hoping he becomes something better under your team. Minnesota lucked out with that scenario because of injuries and being forced to having to trade for Dubnyk. Pavelec isn't going anywhere until the Jets know for sure they have something better then him. Otherwise you are just the Bombers who traded away Kevin Glenn because everyone hated him and were stuck with Lefors at QB. In reality, where NHL GMs have to do their jobs, it isn't as easy as a snap of the fingers to trade for or sign a proven "better then average goalie" - there is only about 15 of those and most teams aren't trading them, especially when you've admitted yourself you just want one as a stop gap until the younger kids come up. We aren't going to be giving up a whole lot of assets in that scenario.

So you think $4 million per season for a backup goalie is reasonable? If Pavelec were a league average goalie I'd have no problem with his contract. But Pavs is below league average. Over his career he lets in one additional goal every 3rd game, compared to a league average goalie. That's crippling. League average salary (not cap hit) for starting goalies is $5.16M Pavelecs salary is $3.75M He ranks 21st in terms of salary for starting goalies. He is pretty much where he belongs. You can't look at things in a fishbowl and complain how much we pay him, but it was a very reasonable salary they signed him to when he was still a younger goalie with potential. His salary doesn't handcuff the team. If we were paying him $6.7M this year and $6.8M next year like Cam Ward makes, you'd have more reason to complain at his salary. Fine then, forget about his salary. Point is we're paying him as a starter and he plain sucks. He's terrible and his stats prove it. I'm shocked how many Jets fans on here are supportive of having a terrible goaltender. Not really a Pavelec supporter. He is too inconsistent. He has bad instincts on what he does when the puck is behind the net. Don't think he will be here past the end of this contract.

So you think $4 million per season for a backup goalie is reasonable? If Pavelec were a league average goalie I'd have no problem with his contract. But Pavs is below league average. Over his career he lets in one additional goal every 3rd game, compared to a league average goalie. That's crippling. League average salary (not cap hit) for starting goalies is $5.16M Pavelecs salary is $3.75M He ranks 21st in terms of salary for starting goalies. He is pretty much where he belongs. You can't look at things in a fishbowl and complain how much we pay him, but it was a very reasonable salary they signed him to when he was still a younger goalie with potential. His salary doesn't handcuff the team. If we were paying him $6.7M this year and $6.8M next year like Cam Ward makes, you'd have more reason to complain at his salary.

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My guess is Clitsome is done. Long term IR. The back problems he has had aren't good.

I'm cheering for a clean win .... need a 2 point game here, not 3.

I know its easy to say that the NHL money will be there eventually, even if he waits. But you are offering a 20 year old kid almost a million dollars a year to come up to the big leagues (less if he is sent down to the AHL next year, but it will still be pretty damn good money). That in itself makes it hard to say no to.

For anyone wanting to keep score on this trade

I'd be shocked if he played. I think they do this to give him a taste of the big leagues. See what it is like, get oriented and put a little cash in his pocket. I could be wrong, but I don't think a year is burned unless he actually plays games.

I think the point is it doesn't matter if you lose by one two or three goals. At this point in the season you pull out all the stops to get points no matter how low the percentage that it works is.

Yeah I heard that too, and more power to him if Walters can do it, but I would be mad if my team traded a 1st round pick for 15 + something else unless that something else was a proven starting National.

Parros Moustache was a good one, especially with his tweet afterwards: Follow George ParrosVerified account‏@GeorgeParros I guess if I'm going to break the 1,000 PIM barrier it may as well be to a sold out crowd yelling at my moustache

I'm not saying we are guaranteed to get Harris or Coombs when they become free agents, but Harris is different as he played junior football in BC and was a territorial exemption pickup for BC. He wasn't a local kid that grew up here and played their football here. Harris was born in Winnipeg and played high school football here before going to BC to play junior football. He is also here in the off-season iirc. How is that not a local kid? I didn't say he wasn't a local kid, I said that he didn't grow up here AND play his football here. The original post insinuated that Harris being born here didn't work out for him coming back to Winnipeg, comparing that to Coombs and Demski. I said it wasn't a valid comparison because Harris played his junior football in BC and had four years playing there to put down roots, make friends, and get accustomed to the place, regardless of whether or not he comes back here to visit family. That was a really badly worded sentence then because that is exactly what you wrote even if it wasn't what you meant. Yep, it happens sometimes when you try to rattle off a post before heading to a meeting.

I'm not saying we are guaranteed to get Harris or Coombs when they become free agents, but Harris is different as he played junior football in BC and was a territorial exemption pickup for BC. He wasn't a local kid that grew up here and played their football here. Harris was born in Winnipeg and played high school football here before going to BC to play junior football. He is also here in the off-season iirc. How is that not a local kid? I didn't say he wasn't a local kid, I said that he didn't grow up here AND play his football here. The original post insinuated that Harris being born here didn't work out for him coming back to Winnipeg, comparing that to Coombs and Demski. I said it wasn't a valid comparison because Harris played his junior football in BC and had four years playing there to put down roots, make friends, and get accustomed to the place, regardless of whether or not he comes back here to visit family. And I see now in my original post we are not guaranteed to get Harris or Coombs, meant to say Demski or Coombs.

I'm not saying we are guaranteed to get Harris or Coombs when they become free agents, but Harris is different as he played junior football in BC and was a territorial exemption pickup for BC. He wasn't a local kid that grew up here and played their football here. Harris was born in Winnipeg and played high school football here before going to BC to play junior football. He is also here in the off-season iirc. How is that not a local kid? I didn't say he wasn't a local kid, I said that he didn't grow up here AND play his football here. The original post insinuated that Harris being born here didn't work out for him coming back to Winnipeg, comparing that to Coombs and Demski. I said it wasn't a valid comparison because Harris played his junior football in BC and had four years playing there to put down roots, make friends, and get accustomed to the place, regardless of whether or not he comes back here to visit family.

I'm not saying we are guaranteed to get Harris or Coombs when they become free agents, but Harris is different as he played junior football in BC and was a territorial exemption pickup for BC. He wasn't a local kid that grew up here and played their football here.

I'm not at all a LOTR fan boy but enjoyed the movies. When comparing the story and action to GoT, you have to remember the time difference and when LOTR was written. It pretty much defined and spawned the fantasy genre. I tried reading LOTR books and couldn't get through them.

I remember patrols getting Jets tickets as well once or twice a year.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc4lB9WT2C4 Anyone think Kucherov will get any extra discipline for the hit on Enstrom ... I mean Engstrom ... Watched it a bunch and while Toby turns to see him coming, Kucherov is taking a bee line for his back the whole time, knocks him into the board from at least 3 feet out and leaves his feet as he pushes him into the boards. Dangerous hit ... should get 3 - 5 games IMO

Jets win. Absolutely needed that tonight. Scary hit on Engstrom, glad to see him come back out to finish the game.