Mike

Well for starters, the feel good story about a homeless man turned professional athlete ...

That's a fairer statement, but let's be honest ... it's not just Crowton's system that Buck has struggled with. He struggled with the LaPolice offense. He struggled with the Crowpolice offense. He struggled with the Crowton offense. I just don't see a comeback being successful. I wish it could be.

Meh, I never claimed he was polite to anyone within his organization or the media. I just said he was polite to me when I spoke to him.

You can get more than one first down on a drive. Technically, I suppose the most you could get on one drive would be 10.

Kind of a shocker But I'd get him here ASAP unless he got cut from BC because he's not interested in playing football anymore or something.

Mack was honestly a really nice guy to deal with if you weren't a media guy. I've spoken to him multiple times in the past and he's always been polite and made you feel like he's willing to spend time talking to you.

A snapshot in time? Now I've heard it all. So what you're telling me is that in your opinion, even though Buck has sucked for two years, my point being made is contingent on his next performance? Okay then.

I find this difficult to grasp. I've seen Goltz throw some terrible balls but Pierce's performance in week 2 is burnt in my memory as being just as poor as any game Goltz has had.

"thousands of dollars" lol come on Al.

You mentioned it for me.

Speaking of statistics ... From the game notes for this week. That's unbelievable.

Anything Goltz did at the end of a drive led by Buck, I attributed to Buck.

I won't say it was cherry picking, the stats are what they are and I didn't handpick statistics that I thought would favor Goltz. But of course it was to prove a conclusion I had already jumped to. I'm very obviously biased in favor of Goltz but really, how can I not be? If there are any stats anyone would actually like me to look into in addition to those ones, I'll be happy to do it. I can't help that every statistic I looked into favors one guy over the other.

Alright. Fair enough if those are the statistics you choose to use.

I'm hoping you'll reconsider that being your last comment, because I have a few questions. a) What stats favor Buck? If you thought Buck being #2 over Goltz was enough proof that he is better, how come you didn't think Goltz was better than Buck when he was #1?

Didn't take too long.

8 second half possessions that game for Buck. 5 of them resulted in NEGATIVE yardage. Seriously, the drive totals for the second half read like this: -2, -7, 5, -4, 28, -12, 92, -10. It's pretty sad when you can literally say that 102% of your total offense in an entire half came on one drive against a prevent defense.

I don't know if I agree with that. General consensus is that a "long drive" is 70+ yards. Buck had 4 of those all year. One of them was a 1 play, 75 yard touchdown run. A second one was a 65 yard catch combined with an 8 yard follow up. One of them was primarily against a prevent defense. His 105 yard drive was phenomenal though. He can hit the big play every now and then, but he's not marching up and down the field regularly.

You can point to garbage time with Goltz against the Argos (or Stamps) but you can also point to the same thing with Pierce against Hamilton. I'd say statistically, the worst half by a Bomber QB all season would be Pierce's second half against Montreal in week 1. Despite scoring 33 points in that game, Pierce's second half reads like this: 3 first downs, 6 two and outs. Sure, he scored a touchdown after a huge Jade Etienne catch-and-run, but other than that and a field goal to start the third quarter, he peeled off drives of 4 yards, 0 yards, 8 yards, 4 yards, 8 yards and 2 yards. Six straight two and outs to end the game. Totally unacceptable.

More statistics to throw at you ... Buck Pierce has been sacked 16 times on 122 dropbacks this year. That means he is getting sacked once every 7.62 dropbacks. Justin Goltz has been sacked 5 times on 83 dropbacks this year. That means he is getting sacked once every 16.6 dropbacks. Another one ... Buck Pierce running the offense has resulted in 53 first downs on 60 possessions this year. That is an average of .88 first downs per possession. Justin Goltz running the offense has resulted in 46 first downs on 36 possessions this year. That is an average of 1.27 first downs per possession. Please, tell me more about how Buck is better than Goltz.

100% agreed. They're both atrocious, but what stood out to me that doesn't really show up in those numbers is that Goltz seems to just pepper his two and out possessions in all over the place whereas Pierce will commonly go 5 or 6 possessions in a row without a single first down.

Oh and here is Hamilton's http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/ham/downloads/downloads/2013/08/ticatsdepth-aug162013083311.pdf

http://cfl.uploads.mrx.ca/wpg/pdf/depth/2013/DEPTH084406.pdf ON: Washington, DeAngelis OFF: Frazier, Palardy

Figured I'd make this thread since I always point out that "advanced" statistics do NOT favor Buck Pierce when comparing him against other quarterbacks. I'll try and update this weekly just to keep it current especially with Hall playing this week to add another comparison. What I looked at mostly was % of two and outs, average offense per drive, points per possession, etc. For the sake of continuity, when I tally this stuff up, I counted a turnover prior to a first down being gained as a two and out but a turnover after a first down had been gained was not. Here's what I came up with: Week 1 Buck Pierce - 19 possessions, 12 two and outs (63%), 3 turnovers, 2 touchdowns Average points per possession - 0.94 Average yardage per possession - 16.26 yards (longest 73 yards) Week 2 Buck Pierce - 18 possessions, 8 two and outs (44%), 3 turnovers, 2 touchdowns Average points per possession - 1 Average yardage per possession - 20.1 yards (longest 105 yards) Justin Goltz - 1 possession, 1 two and out, 1 turnover Average points per possession - 0 Average yardage per possession - 4 (longest 4 yards) Week 3 Buck Pierce - 15 possessions, 6 two and outs (40%), 3 touchdowns Average points per possession - 1.2 Average yardage per possession - 22.6 (longest 92 yards) One thing I will point out, although the stats are what they are ... All 6 of the two and outs in this game were in the second half, where we had 8 possessions. That's horrible second half efficiency. In fact, aside from a 92 yard drive while Hamilton was playing prevent, our net offense in the second half of this game was -7 yards. Week 4 Buck Pierce - 8 possessions, 5 two and outs (62%), 1 turnover Average points per possession - 0.75 Average yardage per possession - 20.62 (longest 65 yards) Justin Goltz - 7 possessions, 2 two and outs (28%), 1 turnover Average points per possession - 1.28 Average yardage per possession - 29 (longest 64 yards) Week 5 Justin Goltz - 13 possessions, 6 two and outs (46%), 1 turnover, 3 touchdowns Average points per possession - 1.61 Average yardage per possession - 25.23 (longest 80 yards) Week 6 Justin Goltz - 15 possessions, 5 two and outs (33%), 1 turnover, 2 touchdowns Average points per possession - 1.2 Average yardage per possession - 17.2 (longest 41 yards) Week 8 Max Hall - 14 possessions, 6 two and outs (42%), 3 turnovers, 1 touchdown Average points per possession - 0.64 Average yardage per possession - 23.92 (longest 103 yards) Buck Pierce - 1 possession, 1 two and out (100%) Average points per possession - 0 Average yardage per possession - 9 (longest 9 yards) 2013 totals to date Buck Pierce - 61 possessions, 32 two and outs (52.4%), 7 turnovers (11.4%), 7 touchdowns (11.4%) Average points per possession - 0.98 Average yardage per possession - 19.58 yards Justin Goltz - 36 possessions, 14 two and outs (38.8%), 4 turnovers, (11.1%), 5 touchdowns (13.8%) Average points per possession - 1.14 Average yardage per possession - 21.91 yards Max Hall - 14 possessions, 6 two and outs (42%), 3 turnovers (21%), 1 touchdown (7%) Average points per possession - 0.64 Average yardage per possession - 23.92

Prediction. Hall throws for 8 touchdowns and Winnipeg wins 72-8 Hamilton realizes they got beat by Winnipeg's 3rd stringer, Bob Young spends the night getting hammered at the St. Norbert Hotel and after an ill-advised phone call to Jeff Hunt, agrees to trade his entire 87-man roster to Ottawa in exchange for their expansion draft rights.