Doublezero

Same for BLM and Reilly. The Eskimos move the pocket a lot and have a lot of designed QB run plays, but Reilly isn't doing a lot of improvising. Really I think this is backwards. With the amount of stuff that QB's have to run through pre-snap now, if you can't throw from the pocket you just won't last. People complain about guys locking into their first read, but 95% of the reading of the defense is done by the time the QB has the ball. There are guys who scramble, but they can throw from the pocket too, although a guy like Collaros really struggles when teams keep him in there all night, the Montreal game is a good example. His arm isn't in the same league as Willy, Reilly, Harris, BLM. I also think that all QB's can run now. There isn't a QB in the CFL that is a pure pocket passer, even Glenn and Ray will take off and run for a first down a couple times a game to keep a defense honest. 20 years ago QB's were more scrambler or pocket passer. Of course you can move the launch point. That's one of the things I noticed Gene Dahlquist assessing and correcting all through training camp: how do the Bombers QBs set up, do they have the correct angles and footwork before winding up and spinning the ball while on the run? Lulay, Reilly, Collaros, Bo-Levi are especially adept at throwing accurately from a roll-out on the run. Based on seeing very limited reps Cato and Marve seems to have that ability too. Or you can tuck it in and run. You're a dual threat. And its fun to watch. But we have designed our offence specifically for our #1 and #2 QBs who are cut from the same cloth. Doug Brown described the kind of QB the Bombers have designed their offence around. In his Free Press column yesterday he said, referring to the pass blocking being afforded to Drew Willy: "When you have a relatively immobile passer at the helm of the ship, who only plays at an elite level when given sufficient time in the pocket, you can’t afford to roll the dice on your protection."

I guess if wanting to see the Bombers finally start to win is an agenda, then I have an agenda. It's pretty obvious you have an agenda. You're not quite at the point of making stuff up, but whenever Brohm is brought up, you make excuses for his lackluster play and whenever Willy is brought up, not only do you downplay his abilities, you go as far as padding your valid points with a bunch of nonsense just to try and get extra jabs in at the guy. I literally saw you downplay Willy's numbers in the pouring rain and criticize him for not being productive and then when someone pointed out that he was playing in a torrential downpour, you ignored it entirely. Then the next day, when talking about Brohm's performance in the same game, you let him off the hook because of the weather even though it wasn't even raining when he played. If that's not having an agenda, I don't know what is. On top of that - I keep seeing you mention "exciting" ... is Ricky Ray not exciting? Because that's the mold Drew Willy fits into. Is he Ricky Ray? No, but he's getting there and that's the style of pro QB he is. I feel like you don't like Willy because he doesn't dance around and get you out of your seat. The most exciting thing to me is winning, I don't care how the guy gets there to do it and the truth is, Drew Willy can and will be a winning QB in this league when they give him the best possible chance to succeed (which will basically be when our OC stops making dogshit play calls) I'd like to see Drew Willy succeed. But right now I believe he's over-rated, and probably not as good as you think. And so I disagree with you, partly because I think he has already been given every opportunity to succeed. Like I said, it'll be interesting to watch Winnipeg vs BC and Willy vs Lulay on Thursday. Tedford, an exQB, had them practicing a high-tempo offence right thru training camp. So far this season that is much more fun to watch than anything Bombers have come up with, designed, as I said, around the 3-step drop pocket style passer.

I guess if wanting to see the Bombers finally start to win is an agenda, then I have an agenda.

Well I grew up watching a scrambler like Ronnie Lancaster vs a pocket passer in Peter Liske. I loved Pete Liske for his pure throwing ability but have a soft spot for guys like Dunigan, Flutie et al, who've had success as scramblers on our 65-yard wide CFL field. Calvillo was prolific in the pocket because a) he almost always had good protection, he made quick reads and c) he got rid of the ball in a heartbeat. But with the new rules and given the way the CFL has evolved, a dual threat QB is likely to have more success and is more fun to watch.

It'll be interesting to compare Winnipeg vs BC offenses this Thursday. It's no coincidence that the most dynamic offences in the CFL are run by scambler style QBs: Collaros, Mitchell, Lulay, Harris. Guys who can make plays with their feet as well as via the toss. It's exciting to watch. These teams: Calgary, Ham, BC and Argos also all are coached by ex-QBs. Meanwhile in Winnipeg, (where our coaching and management braintrust comes from the D side of the ball) we are plodding along with an offence designed around a pair of 3-step drop pocket passers in Willy and Brohm. Fans are calling for a more dynamic QB such as Robert Marve because our offensive structure, built around a limited style of QB, has basically failed. Now is the time to re-design the offence to accommodate more of a Bo-Levi or Collaros-Lulay type of QB so Marve can play a bit and give the fans some excitement. I say go for it now even if it means abandoning an offensive structure that's better suited for our #1 and #2 QBs. After all, this is the wide-open CFL. Why should we have to wait til next year and the inevitable changes that will come from another losing season, because Bomber brass were too stubborn to switch away from an old-school offence that's designed around a style of QB that's essentially ill-suited for the CFL?

Folks blaming Brohm for that loss vs Edmonton are mistaken, plain and simple. It is easy to want to settle on a scapegoat but that is all it is. Consider this: It was raining like hell in that game and it should have been a battle of the running backs. But our RBs ran for less than 100 yards on a total of 13 combined attempts. Not enough run attempts or run efficiency given the conditions. Why? And how's that on Brohm? Did Brohm take 18 penalties for 170 yards? Not on my TV. How about ST and field position? Kendial Lawrence ran back 9 punts for 137 yards. Stoudermire was a measly 5 KR for 16 yards. How is that on Brohm? Brohm wasn't even on the field for almost 2/3 of the game when it was Nichols vs Willy. But Nichols was 17/25 for 196 vs Willy's 7/17 for 71. Is that on Brohm? I guess if you're a Brohm hater it is. Really, if you're looking for a Winnipeg QB to be your scapegoat then take your pick. It was 4-3 Esks at halftime. LH got one FG and missed the other. How's that on Brohm? Willy didn't score a TD did he? In fact Drew Willy hasn't manufactured a single TD vs Edmonton in his three starts against them. Even if you take out the first half of the game and only look at the second half you see that Brohm wasn't covering Kenny Stafford for that 15 yard TD strike from Franklin. Nor was Brohm covering Bowman on another Esks short field TD. And if you want to look at QB numbers for the heroic Franklin vs the evil Brohm they aren't that different: Franklin 5/8 for 81 and Brohm 9/19 for 71. Franklin on a short field Brohm almost always backed up to his own goal post. Yup, Brohm gave up 2 picks and one of them was a pop up from Richards, which eventually led to a TD against us. Look, maybe Willy gives us the best chance to win, but if you look at it objectively Brohm seems to be able to read blitz better than Willy and makes his progressions faster than Willy and also brings a bit more tempo to the O. Seeing that, as long was we are employing an offence designed around a fairly immobile 3-step pocket QB I'd be willing to give Brohm more game reps because I also like his throwing mechanics and believe his accuracy problems are correctable. I know I'm in the minority but so be it. Now if Winnipeg wants to join the elite offences in the league like Ham Tor Cgy and BC (all coached by exQBs) then you need a different style of QB than either Willy or Brohm. But that's a different thread altogether.

He's only cost us two possible wins because of time count violations, that's true. I know some of that is waiting for Marcel to communicate the play. But even so DW takes the entire post-whistle 20 secs every play. That saps all momentum. Winnipeg employed a high-tempo hurry offence vs Sask for a few series and haven't gone back to it since. It appears they were focused on trying to address the sluggish tempo but that is down the tubes now. Willy does have a decent completion rate so far this season but the problem is they are the momentum sapping 6-7 yard outs coupled with the very occasional explosion. That does not amount to a sustained drive. But you play the card you are dealt. The more explosive teams in the CFL are coached by offensive minds - Huf, Tedford, Milanovich, and Austin - all ex QBs and those teams have quicker scramblers at the QB position in some ways better suited to the Canadian game. And please don't tell me what I have a clue about or don't as that's just ad hominem and contributes nothing to the conversation. Like best in the entire league going into the Edmonton game. If the "best" completion rate doesn't translate into WINS then that's not a terribly meaningful stat, is it? Sask leads the league right now in total offence per game (YPG) and in both passing and rushing categories. But look: they are 0-5. Willy's completion rate could be through the roof but that doesn't mean he's going to get better as a pro QB in the CFL - and he needs to get a lot better before the Bombers become any kind of meaningful offensive threat.

He's only cost us two possible wins because of time count violations, that's true. I know some of that is waiting for Marcel to communicate the play. But even so DW takes the entire post-whistle 20 secs every play. That saps all momentum. Winnipeg employed a high-tempo hurry offence vs Sask for a few series and haven't gone back to it since. It appears they were focused on trying to address the sluggish tempo but that is down the tubes now. Willy does have a decent completion rate so far this season but the problem is they are the momentum sapping 6-7 yard outs coupled with the very occasional explosion. That does not amount to a sustained drive. But you play the card you are dealt. The more explosive teams in the CFL are coached by offensive minds - Huf, Tedford, Milanovich, and Austin - all ex QBs and those teams have quicker scramblers at the QB position in some ways better suited to the Canadian game. And please don't tell me what I have a clue about or don't as that's just ad hominem and contributes nothing to the conversation.

And that is the problem exactly. There should be a debate. Because so far Drew Willy is not getting it done. He may be the best we've had in awhile but that does not place him above criticism and serious questioning - which has yet to occur. And if we don't debate it we'll stick with him and keep losing. I could go on about his shortcomings - taking too long to get the ball away, taking too long between snaps, not establishing any rhythm, NO ability to sustain a drive, not having that critical QB peripheral 6th sense, not having the killer foot-on-their-throat instinct etc ... You don't agree? Watch Tedford and Lulay will demonstrate how a pro style offense is run on Thursday. lol I like how you start talking about Willy, like it's all on him. But you tell us to look at an established starter AND his coach. Willy can only go as far as his OC. And MB has proven time and time again to have all the qualities your putting on Willy. Lots of us have been saying it since last year. This teams Offence will continue to struggle as long as MB is calling the plays. It is that simple. Willy has the talent to get the job done, MB does not. Willy has won inspite of his OC and lost/been injured because of him. Doug Brown agrees that Drew Willy takes too long to put the ball in play. Talking about the need for better pass protex for the big $$$ bombers are paying, Brown describes Willy as "a relatively immobile passer ... who only plays at an elite level when given sufficient time in the pocket" and I've said for ages that Willy is the kind of QB who, if you give him more time, will, unfortunately, take it. But I agree that loss vs Esks was not on Willy or Brohm - despite what others are trying to make it out to be. You could say the battle was Bombers O vs Esks vaunted D and for sure the O as a group flunked. Our D and ST also gave up 32 points.

So the loss is on Brohm? Get real. Willy has yet to score a TD vs Esks in three starts. You're not wrong about what Willy has done against Edmonton, but what do two previous games have to do with Saturday? You sure have a strange desire to go out of your way to hate on Drew Willy. I don't get why folks are blaming Brohm for the loss. That makes no sense. Willy's numbers were hardly any better through 2/3 of the game. Willy was like 7 for 17 and 81 yards. Every time Willy loses it seems like he can do no wrong. He's always aabove criticism. I don't hate Drew Willy. I'd like to see him do well. But we've given him every opportunity through more than 20 games ... and maybe it's time to admit he's just not the second coming everyone thinks he is. who is calling him the second coming? If you can't see he's the best qb the bombers have had in a while, you might need to take a CFL 101 course or something. When not being hit like a rag doll he's putting his team in a position to win almost every game. Does he make mistakes? Of course, he's a 2nd year starter playing with a fairly weak team and a horrible OC. Drew willy is by far the bombers best chance to win right now. There is no debate on that. And that is the problem exactly. There should be a debate. Because so far Drew Willy is not getting it done. He may be the best we've had in awhile but that does not place him above criticism and serious questioning - which has yet to occur. And if we don't debate it we'll stick with him and keep losing. I could go on about his shortcomings - taking too long to get the ball away, taking too long between snaps, not establishing any rhythm, NO ability to sustain a drive, not having that critical QB peripheral 6th sense, not having the killer foot-on-their-throat instinct etc ... You don't agree? Watch Tedford and Lulay will demonstrate how a pro style offense is run on Thursday.

So the loss is on Brohm? Get real. Willy has yet to score a TD vs Esks in three starts. You're not wrong about what Willy has done against Edmonton, but what do two previous games have to do with Saturday? You sure have a strange desire to go out of your way to hate on Drew Willy. I don't get why folks are blaming Brohm for the loss. That makes no sense. Willy's numbers were hardly any better through 2/3 of the game. Willy was like 7 for 17 and 81 yards. Every time Willy loses it seems like he can do no wrong. He's always aabove criticism. I don't hate Drew Willy. I'd like to see him do well. But we've given him every opportunity through more than 20 games ... and maybe it's time to admit he's just not the second coming everyone thinks he is.

So the loss is on Brohm? Get real. Willy has yet to score a TD vs Esks in three starts.

When the Bombers make a successful play it seems to be the exception, whereas when other teams do it - it's expected. Bombers are running around out there but there is an obvious lack of focus. Snakebit by this sickness the past few years and its not clear MOS recognizes it or knows what to do .... Willy not looking like much of a winner either.

Willy was probably embarrassed by his lack of performance against Esks. He's had 3 starts for us in Edmonton and hasn't manufactured a TD. Not sure he gives us the best chance to win.

So are you saying Brohm cost us the game?

Because he got hurt on a low hit to his knee? Talk about overreaction. If anything tonight shows how valuable Willy is. We've been very patient with Drew Willy. I'd like to see him succeed. I just don't think he's very good. He managed to throw for 80 yards before he got hurt in the 3rd quarter. Bombers have not scored a TD in 3 games against Esks with Willy starting.

I don't think O'Shea has a feel for how unproductive and dysfunctional the offence is. Oshea, Walters, and even Wade Miller don't really have a feel for the offensive side of the ball. Their football experience is all on the defence. So if Willy isn't very good - would they actually know? Maybe time for Danny Mac to say something.

Time to re-assess Drew Willy. Just imagine. He's going to be making $400k next year. How do you spell ... not worth it?

Cornish

It is obvious that Winnipeg should be going for two points every time a TD is scored. MOS said the decision to go for 2 is situational. But MOS is wrong. Going for the 2-pointer every time, even at 50% success rate, is a better risk than kicking from the 32 with an unreliable kicker. When the CFL changed the rule to allow for the 2-pointer from the 3 yard line, it was expected the 2-pointer would be successful 50% of the time. If you get 2 points 50% of the time that equals getting one point 100% of the time - which is much better risk-reward ratio than we are currently getting with LH missing kicks and losing games for us. http://www.cfl.ca/article/statsgeek-changing-the-rules

Odds of success are probably less than 50% I would think. Why do you think that?

Actually, no, you are wrong. As I said, defence and ST helped Bombers achieve an early 5-1 record. Here's one of those five wins that the D and LH's leg actually won for us http://cfl.ca/article/hajrullahu-bombers-leg-out-a-win-over-lionsBefore that vs Argos and Ottawa the D (Washington, Randle) scored TDs off fumbles, picks or ST scored TDs on returns - contributing points and also getting turnovers and giving the offence field position. The offence mostly relied on short field and big play. Lots of 2-outs and inability to produce long drives was pretty much the hallmark in those early wins. And then the offence just got worse, as, perfect storm, opponents countered Etch's D too.

Lots of blame all around for this blown opportunity for a W, agreed. But a poster pointed out that Willy hasn't been a clutch QB and that is true. While we still have hope he may improve, he is consistently slow getting the ball in play between snaps. And the offence is relying too much on the big play, as well as on the D and special teams for scoring points. When Winnipeg won a few games early last year it was with big help and points from the D and special teams. Then it went downhill and nothing's changed. Willy can't consistently drive the ball downfield or lead the offence to scores in the red zone. And a lot of that has to do with tempo, rhythm and urgency.

You are underestimating the Esks. Given Stampeders injuries, I can see Edmonton finishing first in the West and even with Nichols as QB, Winnipeg will have their hands full. In fact, I'll be surprised if Winnipeg betters the Esks, which makes the blown opportunity against Calgary even more regrettable.

Could be. We may have a better idea by the end of the season. The last minute of the game felt Lapo-like. Could be. We may have a better idea by the end of the season. The last minute of the game felt Lapo-like.We've had too many LaPolice/Rheinbold/Burke moments of late and the scary thing is that Willy sure as spit looks like he is regressing.How does he look like he's regressing? Lmfao. Calgary has one of the best pass defences in the league.. He did rather well did he not?The things people chose to try and claim around here at times..When Willy's game deserted him last year, his biggest failing was his inability to handle blitzes and folding in crunch time. That's pretty much what happened tonight.Uh. I saw him handle the blitz really well up til the last play of the game with the int. not sure what game you were watching.He either tossed it away or dumped it off for small gains.. He also made some great throws in the face of it too. Great retort. Willy was fine until he threw a game killing interception... or didnt call time out on a drive killing penalty. You either have it in the clutch or you dont. Right now, Willy is not a clutch guy. When the pressure is on he gets worse. That's just fact. Will it improve, God I hope so. It's his 2nd year as a starter but hes' going to be 29 in November. He's actually past his prime in football years. Or entering the final stages of it. Wow it's these kind of comments that make me wonder. Early last year that is all he was. Clutch. He won some games where it looked like a certain loss. This game he drove the field and got us within a field goal of winning. The loss of down was stupid but something that shouldn't happen again. Regardless he got close enough for the field goal and it was missed. Willy cost the Bombers a win against Hamilton last year when he took a time count violation in the dying seconds of the game. Generally, like last year, Winnipeg telegraphs it's run game and runs it in ploddingly slow motion. Bigger problem though is this QB takes way too long to put the ball in play between snaps. There's no tempo or urgency to Winnipeg's attack and therefore no rhythm. Defenders have too much time to rest. Other than once series in Regina where Bombers ran a hurry-up that first game, the O has looked pretty weak, inconsistent and unreliable. It comes down to the QB and coord. Take a look at what Lulay and Tedford do in BC for guidance. They know how to run a high tempo CFL offence. Hate to say it, but it really seems that Bellefueille, Willy and Buck Pearce don't get it. Not sure MOS Walters and Miller coming from the other side of the ball can even recognize the problem let alone correct it.