TrueBlue4ever

One man's take: Doug Brown is the easy top choice here. All-time CFL great, and as pointed out arguably the greatest defensive tackle in CFL history. I think we banned Nasty Nate as much for saying Brown was nothing more than a slow moving, bull rushing gap-filler than for any of his other indiscretions. As for who lines up beside him, well...... My also-rans: Joe Critchlow - sorry, Speedflex, know you have an affinity for the 1970's players, but he does not measure up to the others when considering all-time best. Limited numbers and league recognition for all-star noms and awards. Bryant Turner Jr. - same analysis as Critchlow, just advance 40 years. Not a big enough body of work or notable numbers or awards to merit "all-time" consideration. Joe Fleming - the best of a bad bunch in the late '90's, but the pinnacle of his career came in Calgary between his 2 Bomber stints, and limited games with the Blue and Gold, so not a top 2 candidate, despite a ridiculous 15 sack performance as an interior defensive lineman in 1998. Denny Fortney - might be neat to see the other "twin tower" who played next to Brown get the all-timer spot beside him, but there are better candidates on this list. put him in with Critchlow and Turner for comparables The incomplete selection: Steve Patrick - Big longevity, played in the golden era of Bomber football history, and the rings. Lack of available tackle and sack stats hurt his comparison to the others. Unfortunately, his Hall of Fame bio for the Blue Bombers focuses as much on his political career as his playing days and does not give any huge accolades, so he falls short of the grade for me. Anyone with more knowledge of him, please fill in the gaps. The "should be picked, but not here" category: Buddy Tinsley - an all-time Bomber great, made the 75th anniversary team, and a brilliant 2 way player. Very good as a d-lineman as his 2 all-star noms suggest, but he really was more renowned as an offensive lineman, so I will place him in that category and more carefully scrutinize him later. My 3 candidates - hard to pick from this list, each has merit to be selected, and knocks against them. I will list pros and cons rather than rank them. The "Gretzky in LA" template: John Helton - He is Brown's competition for greatest all-time defensive tackle in CFL history, but he is known as a Stampeder great first. His unreal career there makes his Bomber achievements seem like an afterthought. If this was about his whole body of work and the fact he was a Blue Bomber, for part of it, he is a no-brainer for this list. But this team is about Blue Bomber achievements only devoid of success elsewhere (the Geroy Simon corollary), so it is a much tougher call. Still, despite limited time with the team and only partial stats that hurt his comparibles, his first few years with the team were fantastic and helped rebuild the defence to the powerhouse it would become in the 1980's. The career man: Stan Mikawos - the most tenured member of this group, #4 all-time in Bomber games played behind only Walby, Westwood and Cameron. Limited league recognition, more team success than individual glory (with the huge exception of that fumble recovery touchdown in the 1984 Grey Cup, which was in fact the winning score in that game, and a fine time to score your only career CFL touchdown). Not as flashy as the others, played the nose tackle position like Nasty Nate defined it - a gap plugger who tied up 2 o-linemen and let others get the path to the QB. Because of that style, he is easily overlooked and under appreciated by anyone who isn't a teammate. But you don't knock heads for a decade and a half at that position without some serious talent. The two-way threat: D-i-c-k Huffman - I think his CFL Hall of Fame bio sums it up best: "Sports reports suggested that enemy quarterbacks simply ran their plays away from D-i-c-k Huffman" so any player who individually forces an offence to change their schemes is an all-timer. He also has the distinction of being the rare player who was a CFL all-star on offence and defence in the same year. Again, lack of stats from that era make a one-on-one numbers comparison tough. More all-star noms than the other 2, but that includes his offensive noms. In the end, your choice probably comes down to what you place the greatest value in. Mikawos was a rock and helped others excel, but not flashy or "the man". Helton was the veteran presence who starred in the twilight of his Hall of fame career, but was not the supernova he was earlier on another team, when he was just a man against boys. And Huffman was a star, but at multiple positions and in a different era when the game was fundamentally different and players were not as athletically gifted as the freak specimens they are today. I lean towards Helton personally, as at his best he was still a superstar, but I say that having never seen Huffman play. Coin flip here.

Choose 2. Here are the bios: Doug Brown – 188 games in 11 seasons (2001-11), 11 fumble recoveries, 24 yards, 1 TD, 426 tackles, 52 sacks, 8 time divisional all-star (2001, 02, 06-11), 7 time CFL all-star (2001, 02, 06-10), 6 time CFLPA all-star (2006-10), 8 time team nominee for Most Outstanding Canadian (2001, 02, 04, 06-10), 2 time Eastern Division Most Outstanding Canadian (2001, 07), 2001 CFL Most Outstanding Canadian, 3 time team nominee for Most Outstanding Defensive Player (2004, 08, 09), 2008 East Division Most Outstanding Defensive Player, 2008 team nominee for Most Outstanding Player, 3 Grey Cup appearances (2001, 07, 11), CFL Hall of Fame Joe Critchlow – 80 games in 5 seasons (1969-73), 1 Int., 2 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 0 yards, no tackle or sack stats available, 1972 divisional all-star Joe Fleming – 49 games in 4 seasons (1998, 99, 2004, 05), 1 fumble recovery, 0 yards, 101 tackles, 24 sacks, 2 time divisional and CFLPA all-star (1998, 2004* - season split with Calgary), 1998 CFL all-star, 1998 team nominee Most Outstanding Defensive Player (15 sacks that year) Denny Fortney – 56 games in 4 seasons (2001-04), 1 Int., 3 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 4 yards, 90 tackles, 8 sacks, 2002 divisional and CFL all-star, 2002 team nominee Most Outstanding Defensive Player, Grey Cup appearance in 2001 John Helton – 61 games in 4 seasons (1979-82), 6 fumble recoveries, 5 yards, no tackle stats available, 16 sacks from 1981-82 (no other yearly stats available), 3 time divisional all-star (1979, 81, 82), 2 time CFL all-star (1979, 82), team nominee for Most Outstanding Player 1979, 2 time team nominee for Most Outstanding Defensive Player (1979, 80), 1979 West Division Most Outstanding Defensive Player, 1979 Tom Pate Memorial Award (community service), CFL Hall of Fame D-i-c-k Huffman – 58 games in 5 seasons (1951-55), 4 fumble recoveries, 0 yards, no tackle or sack stats available, 3 time defensive divisional all-star (1953-55), also divisional all-star on offence (1952 and 1954) and 2nd team all-star in 1951, 1954 team nominee for outstanding player, 1953 Grey Cup appearance, CFL Hall of Fame Stan Mikawos – 220 games (#4 all-time on the club) in 15 seasons (1982-96), 2 Int., 28 yards, 14 fumble recoveries, 5 yards, 226 tackles from 1987-96, 32.5 sacks, 1993 divisional all-star, 3 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 88, 90), 5 Grey Cup appearances (1984, 88, 90, 92, 93) Steve Patrick – 172 games in 13 seasons (1952-64), 13 fumble recoveries, 41 yards, no tackle or sack stats available, 2 time divisional all-star (1958, 59), 1958 team nominee Most Outstanding Lineman, 1959 team nominee Most Outstanding Canadian, 4 time Grey Cup champion (1958, 59, 61, 62), 6 Grey Cup appearances (1953, 57-59, 61, 62) Robert “Buddy” Tinsley – 171 games in 11 seasons (1950-60), 2 Int., 21 yards, 5 fumble recoveries, 4 yards, no tackle or sack stats available, 2 time defensive divisional all-star (1957, 58), also 5 time all-star as offensive lineman, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1958, 59), 5 Grey Cup appearances (1950, 53, 57-59), CFL Hall of Fame Bryant Turner Jr. – 71 games in 5 seasons (2011-15), 2 fumble recoveries, 5 yards, 89 tackles, 26 sacks, 2012 CFL all-star, 2 time divisional all-star (2012, 13) 2 time CFLPA all-star (2013, 14), 2011 Grey Cup appearance

Killjoy.

So the defensive end voting is done and Tony Norman edges out Michael Gray to join Herb Gray as an all-timer. Gavin Walls also had a strong showing in the most competitive category to date. I will have the bios for defensive tackle up later today and open the polls, but before we dive into the special teams players, we will focus on the head coaches this week for nominations. Obviously Bud Grant and Cal Murphy are on the list, would add Mike Riley and possibly Dave Ritchie, and without looking not sure who coached in the 1930’s and ‘40’s.

Oh, I don’t need to ask. That information comes free of charge. Seriously, though, she is absolutely lovely (OK, she’s not looking over my shoulder now). We have a great relationship. She walks on the ground I worship.

I welcome all input and bio additions, especially those who cite their sources. For everyone’s information, I am gleaning my stats from cfldb.ca and justsportsstats.com (or their sister site Stats Crew) as well as bluebombers.com and cfl.ca. My sources did not have the tackle stats attributed to the Houston Gamblers website, and the sack totals there do not jibe with my sources, but we are limited to what the internet will tell us absent actual game sheets, which I don’t have access to. I strive for accuracy, but recognize my limitations.

That will be the plan. Probably shorten the voting to just the weekend.

Just under 12 hours left to get your votes in, and a real barn burner for the second spot here. For the first time in any of the position polls, every nominee in the category has at least one vote.

No doubt, but don't give him any ammo for his base by letting him say "I want to work this out, the Dems are now ignoring me - their fault, they own the shutdown" Trump is so quick to anger there is really no danger to accepting the meeting. He will walk out first. The Dems can't just sit back and be quiet. In today's world noise and spin control a lot of what the public believes to be true. Keep pointing out the fact that he had 2 years with a Republican controlled House and still couldn't get the votes then. People who are out of work want to see at least one side trying to negotiate .Trump says so much garbage you forget what he said last week, so get him to repeat some of his rants for a fresh week of attack.

You know, going back to the video of the day Trump invited Pelosi and Schumer to the Oval office, you can just see the smug glee on Schumer's face the moment Trump says "I will own the shutdown, be proud to shut down the government, and won't blame you for it". They knew his ego would not allow him to lose an argument in front of the cameras for fear of looking weak, and totally baited him with the shutdown option. Trump, rather than getting into a debate about what type of security was needed, jumped right to the options of "keep the government open while we negotiate and you'll never give it to me, so I look weak and not the dealmaker I claim to be", or "I say I don't want a shutdown and (a) show that I am agreeing with Dems, which I can't do ,and (b) then stonewall, and I'm a liar", so he went for the nuclear option of "I will be a leader and shut down until I get what I want, because I am the Commander in Chief and I am in control, and you can't show me to be weak by agreeing that I'm afraid to shut it down" not thinking the Dems would call his bluff. Schumer almost seemed surprised that it was so easy to trap him this way. No wonder Trump's handlers were deathly afraid of him testifying in person to Mueller and demanded written questions that Trump could take his time with to consider his answers, imagine how quickly Trump would have folded under THAT questioning. I think the Dems should accept the invite to the White House. Let Trump meet them, say they have a spending Bill in the House to re-open the government that has already passed, and want McConnell to do his job and put it before the Senate for a vote. Trump will parrot his same line of "if I open Government will you give me my wall", they say no we want a proper vote on our bill first and he storms out again. Same effect as not going, but it looks like you at least are prepared to meet and re-open discussions and Trump is just doing the same blocking. At this point, everyone knows there is no negotiating to be had, it's all about who is working to open Government and who is working to keep it closed. Trump is trying to change the narrative with his "I am in the White House waiting and they don't want to negotiate" tweets, so cut that argument off at the knees by agreeing to meet - you know he will storm out angrily within 2 minutes, then re-tweet his message with the follow-up "WE did try again, but who walked out again with no discussion? We are not the problem" It's not overkill, public has short attention span, and the media wants a new story, so re-play the old one to keep it fresh. JMO.

Wow.

And this guy too for G.M.

On what basis do you say the FBI has no authority to investigate a President, only Congress? The FBI is a police agency, and last I checked, police open criminal investigations all the time. So far, your only justification for your position is "that's not the way I see it". Cite me a passage from the Constitution, the U.S, Criminal Code, a binding case from the Supreme Court, or the FBI field manual, please. Not trying (too much) to be argumentative, seriously want to know what prevents the FBI from doing this if you know, because I don't. An FBI investigation into a person (any person) acting as an agent for a foreign power would fall under the criminal offence of treason, would it not?

Saw a little twitter war between Trump and Pelosi this morning: Trump tweet: "Nancy and Cryin' Chuck can end the Shutdown in 15 minutes. At this point it has become their, and the Democrats, fault!" Pelosi, tweeting in response: "The truth? Republicans started the #TrumpShutdown - and the Democrats are working to end it. @realDonaldTrump, it's time for you to stop standing in the way of re-opening the government. Let the Senate vote! #EndTheShutdown" (complete with the video of Trump telling Schumer that HE will shut down the Government if he doesn't get his way). Politics in the 21st century. Robert's Rules of Order and Parliamentary procedure be damned. One interesting tweet from a random citizen as a possible solution that showed up in this thread. The gist of it was: Democrats put up a spending bill to re-open the Government that includes the $5.7 billion for the wall, but also includes full protections for DACA once and for all, and also full protection for the Mueller investigation from any interference, allows it complete control to finish the investigation without the threat of closure or firings, and forces it to be made fully public to the American people with no editing or redactions. Would Trump sign that bill? Would the Dems write such a bill? Should they add the rider that Trump must produce his tax returns in full immediately, or submit to questioning in person from the Mueller investigation? (Too much?)

"More clearly and forcefully" = "at all"

I hope that the mid-term results show that Americans are not fatigued by the Trump circus and would not be willing to just brush it off as "meh" news. Dems best hope long term is to wrest control of both houses and the Presidency and then pass bills eliminating the electoral college system. Most polls (at least the ones I've seen, and yes I know polls can be skewed, so I'm happy to be pointed to other sources) show a liberal bent in the U.S. with respect to same sex marriage. abortion rights, gender pay equality, and gun control. Democrats have won 6 of the last 7 popular votes for President.

This bio from bluebombers.com and the Hall of Fame section regarding Jeff Nicklin. A true hero whom we can thank for our freedom today. "Nicklin was sent overseas to Europe as part of the Royal Winnipeg Rifles and was then named the Commanding Officer of the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion. He was one of the first Canadians to jump on D-Day in 1944, led his division in the Battle of the Bulge and was among the first to jump into Germany as part of Operation Varsity in March of 1945. Alas, his chute got tangled up in a tree and he was shot and killed as he tried to wrestle free. As a tribute to Nicklin, the 1st Canadian Parachute Battalion donated the Jeff Nicklin Memorial Trophy to the Western Interprovincial Football Union in 1946, and it is awarded annually to the top player in the Canadian Football League’s West Division."

Yes, you. I’ll add him in.

I must cop to an error on my part. Rigney did play defensive tackle, but his awards WERE for his work as an o-lineman. I confused his bio with D-I-c-k Huffman, who also played both ways, and in fact HE won an all-star nod as both an offensive and defensive player in the same year. Rigney will be pulled from the defensive tackle list. Thanks for auditting me.

Good call, John Helton could also be in the running for top 2. Even though he did more damage as a Stampeder early in his career, his Bomber legacy is still quite impressive (kind of like Gretzky’s LA Kings legacy - nowhere near his Oiler glory but on its own still remarkable). And I think some experts put Helton above Brown for greatest in CFL history. 9 time CFL all-star, 12 time divisional all-star, 2 time CFL defensive player/lineman of the year.

So here is a preliminary list of defensive tackles to consider. The first 4 are older players who played both ways and could easily fall into the “offensive tackle” position, so if you think they are misplaced here, speak up. D-I-c-k Huffman, Buddy Tinsley (may be more well known as an o-lineman), Steve Patrick, Frank Rigney (definitely an o-lineman but also was an all-star multiple times as a defensive tackle). Also John Helton, Stan Mikawos, Joe Fleming, Doug Brown, Denny Fortney, and Bryant Turner Jr. List compiled based on all-star nominations. Anyone missed, or anyone who shouldn’t be here?

One man's take: Herb Gray, as I said, is a runaway winner here, or certainly should be. I pray he does not suffer from recency bias, because like Rod Hill at cornerback, Greg Battle at middle linebacker and Ty Jones at outside linebacker, he is head and shoulders above the competition. 6 straight all-star nods and 7 overall is unparalleled on this or almost any club at this position. Bomber defensive player of the half century, 'nuff said. And all the team success to boot. One of the greatest players on the greatest Bomber era of all. Vote him in, people. As for #2, there is no clear favourite. I will put them in groups, but not necessarily worst to first. The older guard: Nicklin and Marquandt both played in the 30's and 40's when the role of a defensive lineman was different, and two-way players were the standard. Impossible to compare eras in this way, and the important tackle and sack stats did not exist, so I cannot properly judge. What I can say in Nicklin's case is that he's the only Bomber with a league trophy named after him, and my everlasting respect and gratitude for his military service. God bless. Whisler in the 60's and Heighton in the 70's both had strong achievements in all-star nom and league award areas, and again the lack of tackle or sack stats make it hard to grade them against the others. A lack of team success for most of both of their careers lowers their profile. I would encourage any who saw them play to give them a fair shout out, as I cannot. So I am not dismissing their merits, I simply cannot judge them fairly and don't have a league success or "Legend" context to categorize them in like Herb Gray, so I will not personally consider them as my second choice. Of the remaining 7 players I have seen, here is how I view them: Pete Catan - with Tony Norman on the other side, gave the early '80's Bombers a great outside push on the line (both players had multiple 10+sack seasons playing together). He gets bonus points for being a model rocket enthusiast who attached rockets to his helmet at practice and fired them off into the stands on occasion. But he played for fewer years and had smaller stats that his teammate Tony, so he will not make the top 2. Odell Willis and Jamaal Westerman - both were very impressive in short spurts, and their sack totals look impressive for the limited number of career games they played, but each loses out to me because they just weren't here long enough and 40-some games is not the stuff of an all-timer for me. Willis may gain or lose points depending on your perspective of the whole "Mayor of Swaggerville" phenomenon (if you like or dislike trash talk and boasting with your play). Tom Canada - People loved his motor, but I wonder if he would be a fan favourite if his name was "Tom Germany" or some other country's moniker? Still, he put up some good numbers but just below the stats and all-star noms of the remaining 3, so I put him just behind them. That leaves me with 3 co-favourites for one spot, and any of these 3 would be a fine choice. Starting with: The Dark Horse: Gavin Walls - does not have the name recognition of the other 2, and pure reputation carries a lot of weight when voting on all-time best. But I look at his numbers and they speak well to his talent, overall skill set and athleticism. Bigger tackle numbers per games played than the others, and big fumble return yards and TDs speak of his speed off the edge and nose for the ball, and he had more sacks in fewer games (1.5 season's worth) than Mike Gray. Playing in a dead era of Bomber football, devoid of team success, probably sinks his chances to be considered, but he was consistently strong from start to almost finish of his time here. Maybe deserves a better fate than #4 in my ranking, but that is where I put him. The Immaculate: Mike Gray will forever be known for one play. He could live to be 200 years old, and in his obituary the first line will read "The Immaculate Interception". This cuts 2 ways, as it raises his street cred and his profile more than all other players and gives him a voting boost (winning an MVP award in a Grey Cup should count for more when measuring achievements, though), but may hurt him for those who believe he isn't more than that one play. Well, #1 in tackles, #2 in fumble recoveries and Grey Cup appearances, #3 in games played, sacks, and Grey Cups won, and #4 in seasons played put him near the top of most categories when compared to his competition on this list. Never a team nominee for defensive player of the year, but when your competition is Battle, West, Jones, Hill and Payton, just being a known name with that group speaks volumes. Again, only one divisional all-star nod hurts his cause. Depending on my mood, could slot below Walls or ahead of Norman, so split the difference and put him at #3 all-time. The foundation for greatness: Tony Norman - as Speedflex will agree, we are drawn to those we grow up watching first when we look at our perceived "best ever", so like his justifiable promotion of 70's players not to be overlooked, I was weaned on the early '80's stars and have a bias for them. Tony Norman straddled those two eras, and brought the Bomber defence back to prominence as the team returned to glory in 1984. He defined what a rush end should be in that era, and was to the d-line what Jones and Brown were to the linebacking corps at that time. Most sacks by far of any player on this list whose stats were recorded, and shouldn't that be the biggest criteria to consider for a rush end? Had the longevity and sustained success (3 straight all-star nods) to warrant consideration for all-timer. Never "the" superstar, but more than a solid contributor his whole time here. But for all the talent around him, would have had a higher profile as "the leader" on most defences, IMO. And bonus points for officially ending the Eskimo dynasty (his 4th quarter sack, forced fumble, and fumble recovery all on one play against Warren Moon while being double-teamed was one of the most athletic plays I have ever witnessed live, and sealed the 1983 semi-final win against Edmonton and ended their 5 year reign as Grey Cup champions). The early voting seems to favour Norman, and I won't disagree with that sentiment, but if Gray and Gray ended up together, or Gavin Walls snuck in, I'd have no problem with that either. But again, Herb Gray, make it happen. Anything less than #1 in votes is an injustice to him.

Thanks

Is he a defensive tackle or end?

I'll give my full "one man's take" later, but if Herb Gray is not the runaway winner here, I don't know what to say to you people, or why I bothered with this poll in the first place. And he retired before I was born, so I never saw him play. But he is a legendary Bomber figure, so despite the position evolving and the inherent increase in physical skill and size of today's players, it is a crime if he is not on this team. With almost 90 years of history and glory years in the 1960's, we can't just have representation from the 1980's onward on this club. The second player may be a bit of a toss-up, with maybe 2 or 3 co-favorites but possibly 7 in contention jockeying for position. Stay tuned for my analysis.