TrueBlue4ever

That insult was completely unnecessary and how threads get derailed around here. Maybe a PM if you have a personal issue with someone? Just my two cents, I apologize if I’m overstepping my bounds.

Well I wanted to put West down as an inside linebacker since he was at that spot for a pair of dominant years, but I was swayed by others. Will make the voting for inside linebacker more interesting though (who will join Greg Battle?)

We haven't lit up the world with all-star linebackers in the last couple of decades, really. (Kelly in '99, before that Payton in '93, and aside from Greg Battle in the early 90's and Adam Bighill last year, we've been pretty lean at middle linebacker too, from a league recognition standpoint). We were a factory form 1983 to 1993 for sure. QB will come later, but aside from all-stars Glenn and K. Jones in the 2000's and our lean last decade, I can think of Dunigan, Clements (and Hufnagel as a solid back-up), Brock, Jonas, Ploen, and Jacobs.

One man's take: OK, with the move of James West to outside linebacker, this is really more a question of who would be third or fourth here. West and Ty Jones are locks here. Although Elfrid Payton's staggering sack totals are hard to overlook, he found more success later in his career as a defensive rush end, and his relatively low tackle totals show him to be a one-trick pony (albeit a pretty fantastic trick with 157 career sacks). Even at that, West's all-around game (INTs and fumble recoveries, huge tackle totals, shifting easily from inside to outside and dominating at both spots, and being a defensive captain to boot) puts him well ahead. Unlike Payton, his motor never stopped, and he never quit on a play. I suppose Mo Kelly would slot in 4th, but his totals are as a safety and linebacker combined.

Here are the bios: NOTE: Tackles were not recorded before 1987, so any tackle numbers will not be complete for players who played before that year. Ike Charlton – 60 games in 6 seasons (2005-10), 1 Int., 29 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 62 yards, 1 TD, 25 tackles, 4 sacks Charlie Clemons – 39 games in 3 seasons (1994-96), 68 tackles, 9 sacks Delbert Fowler – 53 games in 4 seasons (1984, 86-88), 1 Int., 0 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 0 yards, 33 tackles in 1987, 24 sacks, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 88) Kyries Hebert – 32 games in 2 seasons (2006-07), 3 Int., 60 yards, 3 fumble recoveries, 6 yards, 87 tackles, 7 sacks Tyrone Jones – 118 games in 8 seasons (1983-87, 89-91), 13 Int., 88 yards, 1 TD, 8 fumble recoveries, 97 yards, 1 TD, 134 tackles from 1987-91, 98 sacks (club record), 5 time divisional all-star (1984-87, 90), 4 time CFL all-star (1984-87), 1985 CFL Defensive MOP, 1984 Grey Cup defensive MVP, Grey Cup record 4 sacks in 1984 game, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1984, 90), CFL Hall of Fame Maurice Kelly – 71 games in 4 seasons (1998-99, 2003-04), 9 Int., 148 yards, 1 TD, 12 fumble recoveries, 65 yards, 1 TD, 284 tackles, 7 sacks, CFLPA all-star in 1998, divisional and CFL all-star in 1999, led CFL with 7 fumble recoveries in 1999, team nominee for MOP and MODP in 1999 Rob McLaren – 80 games in 5 seasons (1969-73), 3 Int., 3 yards, 6 fumble recoveries, 4 yards, 1971 divisional all-star Elfrid Payton – 71 games in 5 seasons (1991-93, 2000*, 2004*), (*was a defensive end in 2000 and 2004), 2 Int., 68 yards, 1 TD, 8 fumble recoveries, 48 yards, 1 TD, 160 tackles, 47 sacks, club record 22 sacks in 1993, divisional and CFL all-star in 1993, team nominee for most outstanding rookie in 1991, Eastern division most outstanding defensive player in 1993, 2 Grey Cup appearances (1992, 93), CFL Hall of Fame James West – 110 games in 8 seasons (1985-92), 15 Int., 204 yards, 1TD, 12 fumble recoveries, 21 yards, 1 TD, 378 tackles from 1987-92, 37 sacks, 3 time divisional all-star (1987-89), 2 time CFL all-star (1987, 1989), Eastern division most outstanding defensive player in 1987, 2 time Grey Cup champion (1988, 90). CFL Hall of Fame

RESULTS Coach: Bud Grant GM: Cal Murphy QB: Ken Ploen RB: Leo Lewis RB: Charles Roberts C: John Bonk G: Nick Bastaja G: David Black T: Stanley Bryant T: Chris Walby SB: Milt Stegall SB: Joe Poplawski WR: James Murphy WR: Jeff Boyd TE: Ernie Pitts REC: Terrence Edwards DT: Doug Brown DT: Stan Mikawos DE: Herb Gray DE: Tony Norman ILB: Greg Battle ILB: Barrin Simpson OLB: Tyrone Jones OLB: James West CB: Rod Hill CB: Less Browne HB: Juran Bolden HB: Jonathan Hefney S: Paul Bennett PK: Justin Medlock P: Bob Cameron PR: Keith Stokes KR: Albert Johnson III ST: Wade Miller

I finally opted for Bennett, who seems well on his way to winning the vote. This feels right. Not the biggest hitter, not the explosive numbers, but he was definitely a field general from his position and a sure tackler. His role was so much more than just the big hit or the last line of defence, really a defensive captain like a middle linebacker would be, and he was a known force throughout his career at the position.

I found video of the 2001 Grey Cup (ouch) that listed Armstrong as a middle linebacker, will place him there. Thanks very much for the assistance.

Still need to determine positions (inside or outside) for the bolded players. Assistance required.

So I need assistance placing some linebackers as inside or outside, so please fill in the blanks for me. Right now, I have the following lists - Outside (this week's poll) Elfrid Payton, Ty Jones, Rob McLaren, Delbert Fowler, James West Inside (next week) Phil Minnick, Greg Battle, Barrin Simpson, Aaron Brown, Harry Walters, Mike Doyle, Dave Burkholder, Henoc Muamba, Paul Randolph Unknown (help me place them) Antonio Armstrong, Kyries Hebert, Charlie Clemons, Greg Clark, Maurice Kelly, KD Williams, Ike Charlton

You cannot compare CFL and NFL schedules. In the NFL you don't play veery team. In the CFL with an odd number of teams, one must be off every week. The third bye was added to avoid the week where 5 games are played and one team has to play twice in 5 days. The current system is actually very good. Having said that, although one team will always get week 1 as a bye and one team will get week 21 as a bye, it would be nicer if the byes were equitable. Having the Bombers get week 2 off, then week 21, is poor planning.

Merry Christmas everyone, and all the best for 2019!

And 2 time winner as Most Outstanding Canadian in the league (second one was with Hamilton). Safety has pretty much always been a position where a Canadian player has been utilized. Aside from Thompson, without researching and confirming it, I think everyone else on the list is Canadian.

Payton was a CFL all star as a linebacker in 1993.

West also spent time as an inside (middle) linebacker and was a CFL all-star there in 1987, and was also the Eastern division defensive player of the year. The following year he again was a divisional all-star as a middle linebacker. In 1989 he moved outside to accommodate Greg Battle moving into the middle linebacker spot, and West was a CFL all-star from the outside (Battle himself was a CFL all-star as an outside backer in 1990, but otherwise was a middle linebacker for the rest of his career, so he will be placed on the inside linebacker category). I am inclined to place West inside for the nominations, but let me know if this will meet with resistance.

Re: Elfrid Payton position. He started his career as a linebacker, and in his first stint with the Blue Bombers was the team's rookie of the year in 1991 and in 1993 set a club record with 22 sacks (league leader as well) and was named a CFL all-star and east division defensive player of the year at the linebacker position. His second go-round with the club was in 2000, and this time he was a defensive lineman. Although he had much success elsewhere in his career as a d-lineman after switching to that new position (Montreal starting in 1996, Toronto in 2001 and Edmonton in 2002), his greatest contribution to the Bombers came as a linebacker, so I believe he is warranted at being placed in this position, since his achievements for other terms are not to be considered.

My initial gut reaction says Ty Jones and Elfrid Payton outside, James West and Greg Battle inside, and there really is likely very little debate about that (no disrespect to others on the list - Aaron Brown was a stud in the middle and freed up Jones to pile up his gaudy numbers). Battle and Jones are locks, West pretty much too, despite some big names out there (West's personality elevates him above all others). Payton has obscenely great sack totals, but was that frustrating player who would get 3 sacks in a game but seemingly take most other plays off (by his own admission), so he might be one on the bubble. Surprisingly few all-stars from the linebackers as compared to d-linemen in Blue Bomber history. Adam Bighill's one great season here could arguably vault him into contention.

Was he hooked up with Anna Kournikova at the time, and did she ever pop in? Not sure if he stole her from Federov, or vice versa? She seemed to flip-flop between the two of them.

Put it on a loop, like "A Christmas Story" on TBS. Early estimates of the cost of the wall (2 years ago) pegged it at $25 billion, not $5 billion. Couldn't hurt to throw that nugget out there either for the voters. "He's lied to you about not having to pay, and it will cost even more than he's now conceding it will cost you"

Next up are the linebackers, starting with the outside linebackers. I am going to throw out a bunch of names, and will ask for help in positioning as inside or outside (or correcting any inaccuracies in my listings), as well as those I have missed (also help if anyone can position those players who were with the club pre-1950's when there was no formal "linebacker" position, but who deserve a nomination). Linebackers to consider include Antonio Armstrong(?), Maurice Kelly(?), KD Williams(?), Elfrid Payton (outside), James West (all-star at both inside and outside, but I believe he should go in as an inside backer, please confirm or refute), Ty Jones (outside), Rob McLaren (outside), Phil Minnick (outside), Henoc Muamba (inside), Greg Battle (inside, although he too was an all-star one year at outside backer), Barren Simpson (inside), Aaron Brown (inside), Harry Walters (inside), Mike Doyle (inside), Dave Burkholder (inside), Ike Charlton(?), Delbert Fowler(?). We already had Gordie Rowland and Mo Leggett, both who were outside (cover) backers, listed in the defensive halfback position given the hybrid nature of the new SAM position, so I am disinclined to repeat them here, but I am willing to be convinced if people want a re-vote on them in this category. Also, Zeke Moreno was an all-star at middle linebacker one year, which is my default staring point when compiling these nominee lists, but since he was traded midway through the year and earned that award as much with the Tiger Cats, I will leave him off. I'm pretty sure I'll get no objections. Lots of names, so don't be afraid to tell me who I have missed, or who does not belong in here for consideration in the first place.

One man's take: Safety is an unusual position on this all-time list. Stats are often secondary when judging a safety, most people want the big hitter who makes opponents fear going to the tough areas, so their best attribute is NOT being thrown to, even though as a rover type of player, they could be in on any given pass play and therefore could inflate their stats. I sense that personal name recognition and club success during their tenure will sway the vote heavily here. I see no clear-cut favorite, but here is my assessment. Brule, Cavness, Logan, Ulmer - all played in the dead zone eras of the club in the mid-60's to mid 70's, and mid-2000's in Logan's case, when the team was awful, so that hurts their name recognition for younger MBB members. Each had one notable season during their tenure where they got league recognition (Ulmer has bigger numbers due to longer tenure) but none strike me as serious contenders for votes. Europe - profile heightened by being on a powerhouse team, but he wasn't really an all-timer at safety, numbers or impact-wise. Also, played here at the end of a career that spanned a few teams, so take his non-Bomber achievements out of the equation. So 6 to ponder: Bennett - when I first thought of safeties, he jumped right out at me, but I may be biased because I was indoctrinated as a youngster on the Bombers when he first arrived. Still, was an impact player when he was here. Also carried his talents over to Hamilton where he continued his dominance at the league level (won some major awards during his tenure there), but this poll is supposed to ignore his contributions to other clubs, and his talents at other positions too (this really hurts him, because he was so effective as a punt returner here, but that is not to be factored in). I am waffling on him a bit now, as I examined the other nominees' bios. Played less games here too, so maybe I am looking too hard at strikes against him. Herosian - a bit before my time so I can't make a fully fair judgement on him, but I do know the name. Personal tragedies score him sympathy votes, but he seems to have had a pretty dominant 3 year run with the club in any event, even if it was at a low point in the club's history success-wise. It is quite something when a safety can be nominated twice as the club's outstanding defender, much less even once, so big points there for him. Loffler - let's face it, he will not win this or even come close. Sadly, that may be as much a result of the schizophrenia that has overtaken so much of this board due to the club's struggles and the need to find scapegoats (don't believe me? Quick, without looking it up, can anyone NOT tell me how long since the last Grey Cup win, and hey did you see the posts immediately after, I don't know, EVERY SINGLE Bomber loss this year - this place is nuts). Actually, his newness hurts, and he may be more appreciated a few years down the road, but no other player on this list has been a 3-time CFL all-star, much less been one every year they have played, so is undisputed as the best in the business right now, for what it's worth. And his peers in the CFLPA back up that sentiment. Give him 3 more years at his current pace of success and I think he may well win the vote if we do this again in 2025. Thompson - I will again remind people not to consider anything other than the Bomber careers of the nominees, so no brownie points given for the fact that he clearly was (like Bolden at halfback) too good for the CFL, and had a long career of achievement in the NFL after he left. And when you break it down, he was only a safety for one year, so I personally don't think he warrants recognition over other longer standing players. Having said that, WOW, what a year for the ages he had in 1988 (82 tackles! And who ever had 7 sacks from the safety spot???). But one great year should not outweigh all else, in my mind (but hey, I used that logic for Bolden and voted for Casey and Hailey over him, and look where that got me, so I suspect I am shouting at the trees here). Bonus points for a cool nickname (calling a safety "hit man" and having it become his personal moniker is like calling a goalie "brick wall" and having it stick, you've basically anointed them as the best ever right there). Rauhaus - this is where different eras make these polls tricky. Safety was a different role in the 1960's (see Stats Junkie's brilliant post on the evolution of the game and the positions for a primer), but the cold numbers say his 34 interceptions are second-best in club history, and 17 fumble recoveries is an eye-popping number. Played in the golden era, and his 4 rings are quadruple anyone else on the list. Flagel - I wonder how many who never saw the mid-1980's Bomber team even heard of him, but he checks all the boxes for all-time great. Tenure (how many safeties grind out 6 years as an unchallenged starter these days), check. Stats (25 total turnovers is #3 on this list), check. League recognition (only Loffler compares to his 6 all-star and player award wins), check. Cup ring, check. I fear he will be the Ken Hailey of this poll, a brilliant player who is fully deserving of all-time great recognition, but will be overlooked due to being "consistently great" rather than "one season all-world" and not known by the younger MBB board members. In the end, from 6 to 1 I would rank them right now as Herosian, Thompson (ouch, but only one season just can't be graded higher) , Loffler (yah, he could be #6 too), Bennett, Rauhaus, and Flagel at the top. Now ask me again tomorrow, when I completely flip this order. I've surprised myself that I didn't still have Bennett as a lock once I dug into this analysis.

Vote for only one. Here is a list of bios: Paul Bennett – 61 games in 4 seasons (1980-83), 18 Int., 437 yards, 4.5 sacks, divisional all-star in 1982 and 83, CFL all-star in 1983, CFL Most Outstanding Canadian player in 1983, 1982 team nominee Most Outstanding Defensive player, CFL Hall of Fame Paul Brule – 63 games in 4 seasons (1968-71), 14 Int., 238 yards, 1 fumble recovery, 0 yards, 1970 divisional all-star, team nominee Most Outstanding Canadian player in 1970, Canadian Football Hall of Fame Grady Cavness – 28 games in 2 seasons (1972-73), 11 Int., 203 yards, 4 fumble recoveries, divisional and CFL all-star in 1972 Tom Europe – 79 games in 5 seasons (1999-2003), 8 Int., 168 yards, 2 fumble recoveries, 46 yards, 1 TD, 167 tackles, 2 sacks, divisional all-star in 2002, Grey Cup appearance in 2001 Scott Flagel – 91 games in 6 seasons (1982-87), 16 Int., 291 yards, 2 TDs, 9 fumble recoveries, 50 yards, 41 tackles in 1987, 2 sacks, 3 time divisional all-star (1985-87), CFL all-star 1986 and 1987, 1987 CFL Most Outstanding Canadian player, 1984 Grey Cup Cahmpion Brian Herosian – 65 games in 5 seasons (1975-79), 17 Int., 183 yards, 5 fumble recoveries, 7 yards, divisional all-star in 1975 and 76, CFL all-star in 1976, team nominee for outstanding defensive player in 1975 and 1977 Taylor Loffler – 50 games in 3 seasons (2016-18), 8 Int., 166 yards, 7 forced fumbles, 2 fumble recoveries, 10 yards, 185 tackles, 1 sack, 3 time divisional all-star (2016-18), 3 time CFL all-star (2016-18), CFLPA all-star in 2017 and 2018, team nominee for Outstanding Rookie player 2016 Ian Logan – 99 games in 7 seasons (2006-12), 12 Int. 76 yards, 1 fumble recovery, 0 yards, 224 tackles, 4 sacks, divisional, CFL and CFLPA all-star in 2011, Grey Cup appearance in 2011 Norm Rauhaus – 185 games in 12 seasons (1956-67), 34 Int., 322 yards, 1 TD, 17 fumble recoveries, 130 yards, 3 TDs, divisional all-star in 1961, team nominee for Outstanding Canadian player in 1961, 4 time Grey Cup champion (1958, 59, 61, 62), 6 Grey Cup appearances (1957-59, 61, 62, 65) Bennie Thompson – 35 games in 3 seasons* (1986-88), 7 Int., 107 yards, 4 fumble recoveries, 10 yards, 119 tackles, 9 sacks, 1988 divisional and CFL all-star, *1988 stat line (his one season as a safety) – 4 Int., 58 yards, 2 fumble recoveries, 2 yards, 82 tackles, 7 sacks in 18 games, 1986 team nominee for Outstanding Rookie player, 1988 team nominee for Outstanding Defensive player, 1988 Grey Cup champion Ed Ulmer – 99 games in 7 seasons (1965-71), 25 Int., 340 yards, 1 TD, 7 fumble recoveries, 0 yards, 1966 divisional and CFL all-star, 1965 Grey Cup appearance

Ok, the safety list is ready and will be posted shortly. I have included just about every name mentioned on this list, with a few notable exceptions. Maurice Kelly and Terry Ray I have down at linebacker, even if they did spot duty at safety, so they are out. As is Wes Lysack. Basically one season as a Bomber and no notable stats. Noeller's plea to have him included for his other talents has fallen on my deaf ears - that can be a part of another poll (horniest player?) if he wants.

If I'm the Democrats, I just answer any complaints about a shutdown that is their fault with "but the President promised the American people the wall would cost them nothing - Mexico was going to pay for it all". At the end of the day, when people vote for politicians, they want to say "I am better off than I was" and the way they typically measure that is more money in their pockets. Trump can lie, cheat, philander, break the law, and be an out-and-out racist and the sad truth is the morality police have nothing on him that can't be forgiven by his voters if they can say they have more money in their pockets at the end of the day. So all of his promises really play to that: MAGA/build the wall/America first - keep out the immigrants stealing our American jobs, and we don't have to pay a dime for it Biggest tax cut in history - forget that it is aimed at the top 1%, the average citizen sees that they get $30 more per paycheque in their wallets (at least in the first year) and thinks it is great Look at the economy - as measured in simple terms by the Dow Jones at record highs (no one really understands the nuance of the numbers or the volatility, just keep pointing out the historic highs - "never been over 26,000 in history before Trump" - because few average folks appreciate that it always trends up long term), so if the country is rich, I must be rich too So hit him where his promise really hurts - Mexico would pay for it. Play the party line of "we cannot condone what amounts to a $5 billion tax hike to the American public for a wall that will have no real effect. Trump lied to you when he said you wouldn't have to pay for it.