Nicholls's Potential Bonus

[Mark H.]

Just now, iso_55 said:

Nicholls may have but he still played better for the most part than Willy did behind that same OL. He also played some stinkers too.

Fair enough. I remember the final home game as being particularly brutal in terms of protection. We had really good seats & I was able to watch the OL closely. 

[Mr Dee]

I believe that since Walters has been here he has been trying to alter the National ratio so that dependence on National O-Linemen didn't hamper the running of a fairly good team. He has clearly tried to beef up other areas so as to easily meet the 7 National player minimum and has steered the scouting towards better import O- line guys. He has kept his eyes open for veteran Nats, such as Keeping and other veteran CFL imports such as Hardrick to bolster the line while drafting judiciously (Goosen, Chungh, Couture) to keep that line going. But, he's not to relying completely on the draft. They found strength another way ie. using a 3 import line.

Neufeld? Well he's Canadian and useful to plug and play. Here's hoping that that is his role going forward. 

I remember at the beginning of the year when a lot of fans were downright distressed with how thin the Nat. depth was on the O-line and I recall the reply from the staff was that they were not concerned. The reasons were Bond and Hardrick and Foketi etc. 

Apparently, they knew what they were talking about.

Edited August 24, 2016 by Mr Dee

[Jpan85]

Looking at the situation I am sure if Walters went to Miller, "we may be slightly over the cap just this due to the QB situation, Wade is there a problem with that." The answer would be it alright we got a winning thing going on right now and we will take the hit this year and address it in the offseason. I would think the added revenue from a winning team would out weigh the cost.

[iso_55]

Considering the varying level of talent & actual game readiness OL drafts from the CIS have I always thought trying to go with 4 or 5 Canadians on the line wasn't feasible. It takes luck & years of drafting to build an OL as we have painfully found out. Not only that but teams were so committed to an All Canadian OL that they overlooked talent at other positions when they did. In the years before All Canadian OLs, teams generally played 3 Intls as starters. If teams had a glut of Natl talent maybe they'd only play 2 Americans as starters. But never 4 or 5.

Then in the 90's the Esks were able to build the first All Canadian OL in the CFL freeing up Intl talent elsewhere. Naturally other teams tried to do the same & for the most part were successful until the past few years when (I believe) the talent of American DL coming up here really improved drastically & the Canadian OL couldn't compete. I'm glad we're going the way we are. OL dominated all the picks in recent years & other deserving players were kept down at lower draft positions. Now more skilled positions will get their due in the first round as well. This is a good thing.

Edited August 24, 2016 by iso_55

[JCon]

Given how much a NI O-linemen gets paid, I don't think a team could afford 5 of them.

[Fatty Liver]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

It doesn't even have to be go elsewhere, maybe he just needs some time on the bench to recover, because that's what Nichols got in Edmonton too, he did win 5 games with that team last year before we got him. 

But some people here, you included have decided that nope Willy is done, never going to be able to get his head right again, it's ludicrous. People said Glenn would never get his head right again after he was here too and look how that turned out. People are just entirely too quick to write people off. 

The difference is Nichols was probably making  around $150,000 as a backup in Edm. and never hit the contract bonanza.  If Nichols stays healthy this year Willy is unlikely to see the field again and will have to be dealt with in the off-season.  If he agrees to a 50% pay cut fine, he can try to win the starting job back again next season.

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, iso_55 said:

Nicholls may have but he still played better for the most part than Willy did behind that same OL. He also played some stinkers too.

not the same ol, and has had a crazy amount of turn overs from the D with amazing field position. No comparison. And as long as the team continues to win the chances we get to see willy behind this set up is slim. 

[iso_55]

40 minutes ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

The difference is Nichols was probably making  around $150,000 as a backup in Edm. and never hit the contract bonanza.  If Nichols stays healthy this year Willy is unlikely to see the field again and will have to be dealt with in the off-season.  If he agrees to a 50% pay cut fine, he can try to win the starting job back again next season.

The way the qb position is set up now, they're maxxed out because of Willy's contract. They really are hamstrung in that they can't go out & sign a promising player or make a trade. Backups don't make $410,000 in the CFL & make a lot less. So I agree, this will have to be dealt with in the off season. Either Willy agrees to a substantial & serious paycut or he won't be here anymore. The other thing is that Willy or anyone else should never be given a starting position. Whoever comes out on top thru competition should be the starter by earning it. Not an announcement at a media conference by O'Shea. So, if Willy agrees to a paycut & has to work for the starting spot then he can be brought back. If not, probably time to move on.

[johnzo]

1 hour ago, iso_55 said:

Then in the 90's the Esks were able to build the first All Canadian OL in the CFL freeing up Intl talent elsewhere. 

The Bombers glory years OL was all-Canadian. Bastaja, Bonk, Moors, Nemeth, Walby, Bauer were all non-imports.

(Bastaja was born in London, but went to school at Simon Fraser)

[iso_55]

1 minute ago, johnzo said:

The Bombers glory years OL was all-Canadian. Bastaja, Bonk, Moors, Nemeth, Walby, Bauer were all non-imports.

(Bastaja was born in London, but went to school at Simon Fraser)

I think the Esks beat them to it.

[Mark H.]

38 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

not the same ol, and has had a crazy amount of turn overs from the D with amazing field position. No comparison. And as long as the team continues to win the chances we get to see willy behind this set up is slim. 

He's referring to last season 

[Eternal optimist]

4 hours ago, LimJahey said:

He had more tools than Nichols did at his disposure.... (Weston, Smith, Adams, starting o-line..)

 

4 hours ago, Mark H. said:

Starting OL? That's a laugh and a half! 

Well, technically he is correct, every game the Bombers do start somebody on the offensive line. Whether it's a group of security guards in need of some $$$ or actual y'know... professional football players is entirely up for debate.

[wbbfan]

6 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

He's referring to last season 

in that case i can only recall the one major change on the OL and thats goossen coming in. who hasnt been quick to pick things up at C so far. Over all last years ol under performed pretty heavily, and it carried into early this year. But big changes on the line especailly take time to gel. 

As for an all NI ol, the league is such a pass heavy league, i would take the best OL available. Make the ratio work else where if you have to. Ni LB, dl, a wr or two a rb etc. The amount teams run the ball these days having a grinder at rb who blocks and churns out a couple yards vs having the average imp rb doesnt seem like a huge dip. There may not be enough talent at RB league wide for every one to start one and have a back up, but there are enough athletic guys who get moved from qb, or to fb etc To dig up a hand full of guys to plug in. 

 There is such a finite amount of NIs at OL, and its soo important to protect your qb in the cfl I dont totally understand the clinging to an all ni ol. Weve seen more and more ratio breakers start and pop up each year. Id rather go 2 NI DTs or even 3 in a 3-4 front. With how much teams run, with how few running qbs are in the league you could plug in a failed OL ni, or a pure dt ni whose not at the talent level of an imp ol and in theory should be a gain in talent in important areas. 

[Jacquie]

2 hours ago, tracker said:

I believe it is a valid speculation. The team has been completely different under Nichols and Willy's absence as a starter is the only conclusion.

I disagree. None of us knows what the players are thinking. There are a number of factors involved, not just a change in QB. Saying it's the "only conclusion" is over-simplifying the situation.

As has already been said, the changes to the o-line have made a big difference as have some other changes. Nichols has played well but we have no way of knowing whether he would have had the same success playing with the same o-line that started the season.

There were also a number of reports before the Edmonton game about the team rallying around Mike O'Shea with all the firing talk that were being said. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Jacquie

[iso_55]

11 minutes ago, Jacquie said:

No it isn't. As has already been said, the changes to the o-line have made a big difference as have some other changes. Nichols has played well but we have no way of knowing whether he would have had the same success playing with the same o-line that started the season.

 

I go back to last season as they both played behind that putrid OL that was a disgrace. Nicholls played as well or better than Willy did before his injury in 2015. He made quicker reads, better decisions & released the football faster than Willy did.

Edited August 24, 2016 by iso_55

[Eternal optimist]

2 hours ago, tracker said:

I believe it is a valid speculation. The team has been completely different under Nichols and Willy's absence as a starter is the only conclusion.

Although a starting QB can obviously be a leader and rally the troops through adversity, that doesn't necessarily mean Nichols has turned around the entire team by himself. What goes on in the Bombers locker room is unknown to anyone on MBB. You're right that it could be Nichols' that's lit the fire, it could also be O'Shea's speeches, the D playing fantastic, something in the water, or any combination of these or other factors. Nobody really knows why they've suddenly come to life the past few games, but I hope it continues.

What is for certain though, is that unfortunately QBs do get injured in this league. The thought of Dominique Davis as our backup if they were to release Willy and get caught with their pants down again (if Nichols were to get injured) is terrifying. If it were me and cash flow really is becoming an issue I'd look at other places to cut before releasing Willy, there are much easier areas to "trim the fat" than at QB where the Bombers have been starved for so long.

[iso_55]

Okay, you tell us where they can trim the fat? What, sit or cut Wild & play Hurl? Cut Randle & keep Roberts? Get rid of Dressler & Smith?

Edited August 24, 2016 by iso_55

[Jacquie]

15 minutes ago, iso_55 said:

I go back to last season as they both played behind that putrid OL that was a disgrace. Nicholls played as well or better than Willy did before his injury in 2015. He made quicker reads, better decisions & released the football faster than Willy did.

None of which translated into more wins.

[iso_55]

Just now, Jacquie said:

None of which translated into more wins.

Well, first of all  I never said Nicholls won any games single handedly last year or this. However, we did win with him at qb last season. And he did play better behind that line than Willy did. And Nicholls survived last season because he made quicker decisions. Got rid of the football faster. Based on all that I think Nicholls played better everytime he got in since he got here from the Eskimos. Is Nicholls the long term answer? I have no idea but he gives us a better chance to win when he's playing, IMO. So, he needs to stay in there.

[Eternal optimist]

48 minutes ago, iso_55 said:

Okay, you tell us where they can trim the fat? What, sit or cut Wild & play Hurl? Cut Randle & keep Roberts? Get rid of Dressler & Smith?

You got me iso, I have no idea.

[iso_55]

2 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

You got me iso, I have no idea.

Not easy, I know. Our depth is razor thin. on the roster & with the salary cap.

[Blueandgold]

1 hour ago, iso_55 said:

Well, first of all  I never said Nicholls won any games single handedly last year or this. However, we did win with him at qb last season. And he did play better behind that line than Willy did. And Nicholls survived last season because he made quicker decisions. Got rid of the football faster. Based on all that I think Nicholls played better everytime he got in since he got here from the Eskimos. Is Nicholls the long term answer? I have no idea but he gives us a better chance to win when he's playing, IMO. So, he needs to stay in there.

I'm not a Willy defender, but he was A LOT better than Nichols last season.

[bb1]

1 hour ago, iso_55 said:

Okay, you tell us where they can trim the fat? What, sit or cut Wild & play Hurl? Cut Randle & keep Roberts? Get rid of Dressler & Smith?

Smith or Randle if we absolutely have to, those 2 areas are strengths.Not having a adequate backup Qb is spelling disaster  in this league. You just have to look at how many teams have already had to use their backups this year to realize this is a no brainer. In the CFL it's all about the QB. ..

[Blueandgold]

4 minutes ago, bb1 said:

Smith or Randle if we absolutely have to, those 2 areas are strengths.Not having a adequate backup Qb is spelling disaster  in this league. You just have to look at how many teams have already had to use their backups this year to realize this is a no brainer. In the CFL it's all about the QB. ..

Those guys are going no where.

Funny that Hurl was mentioned though, he is on a decent six figure contract...

[comedygeek]

2 hours ago, iso_55 said:

Okay, you tell us where they can trim the fat? What, sit or cut Wild & play Hurl? Cut Randle & keep Roberts? Get rid of Dressler & Smith?

Remember, we're not talking about $400,000 here. We're talking about there (potentially) being an issue from the $100,000 of bonuses Nichols is due to receive. (Also, I would imagine, given Willy's injury history, the Bombers probably also assumed Nichols would hit some of these bonuses anyway and factored that into their SMS management.)

But assuming we do absolutely need to cut that $100,000 off the books by flat-out replacing a higher-priced vet with a rookie, I'd much rather have an upstart like Roberts or Mayo in the line-up with Willy as the insurance for an injured Nichols, than Davis as our QB with one of the higher-end players sticking around.

(Of course, I honestly don't think they have to worry about cutting anyone for salary reasons.)

1 hour ago, iso_55 said:

Well, first of all  I never said Nicholls won any games single handedly last year or this. However, we did win with him at qb last season. And he did play better behind that line than Willy did. And Nicholls survived last season because he made quicker decisions. Got rid of the football faster. Based on all that I think Nicholls played better everytime he got in since he got here from the Eskimos. Is Nicholls the long term answer? I have no idea but he gives us a better chance to win when he's playing, IMO. So, he needs to stay in there.

Willy was 3-3 in games he started last season (3-1 in games he both started and finished). Nichols was 2-6.

So we definitely won more with Willy last season, and with less games (and half as many completed games).

I'm happy as hell Nichols and the Bombers are playing well now, and want them to continue -- with him in as QB -- but that doesn't change the facts of last season or re-write history.

Edited August 24, 2016 by comedygeek