Nicholls's Potential Bonus

[iso_55]

38 minutes ago, Blueandgold said:

I'm not a Willy defender, but he was A LOT better than Nichols last season.

Disagree. Willy was continually getting killed. Every game he was taking hard shots. We all knew it was just a matter of time before he got injured & he did. When Nicholls cane in the football left his hand much faster. I wouldn't say Nicholls record was any indication of an improvement as the team had a lot of holes to fill but even with Bellefeuille's offense it looked better with Nicholls running it.

[iso_55]

14 minutes ago, comedygeek said:

Remember, we're not talking about $400,000 here. We're talking about there (potentially) being an issue from the $100,000 of bonuses Nichols is due to receive. (Also, I would imagine, given Willy's injury history, the Bombers probably also assumed Nichols would hit some of these bonuses anyway and factored that into their SMS management.)

But assuming we do absolutely need to cut that $100,000 off the books by flat-out replacing a higher-priced vet with a rookie, I'd much rather have an upstart like Roberts or Mayo in the line-up with Willy as the insurance for an injured Nichols, than Davis as our QB with one of the higher-end players sticking around.

(Of course, I honestly don't think they have to worry about cutting anyone for salary reasons.)

Willy was 3-3 in games he started last season (3-1 in games he both started and finished). Nichols was 2-6.

So we definitely won more with Willy last season, and with less games (and half as many completed games).

I'm happy as hell Nichols and the Bombers are playing well now, and want them to continue -- with him in as QB -- but that doesn't change the facts of last season or re-write history.

When Nicholls took over the season had already started to unravel. We started both Brohm & Marve after Willy got hurt & they were abysmal. Especially Marve vs the Stamps It all went downhill from there. There were a couple of winnable games we should have won, like the Eskimo game that particularly stands out.. So, instead of 2-6 he might've been 4-4 so Nicholls record as a starter might've been much different. Not rewriting history but your version isn't quite right either.

[WinnipegGordo]

3 hours ago, johnzo said:

The Bombers glory years OL was all-Canadian. Bastaja, Bonk, Moors, Nemeth, Walby, Bauer were all non-imports.

(Bastaja was born in London, but went to school at Simon Fraser)

But back then the rosters were smaller and teams had to start more NIs. Now teams have a lot more flexibility with their roster management.

I say teams should strive to start 3 NIs on the Oline but if you find 3 quality Americans instead then so be it. 

Like it's been mentioned already it seems like the talent and schemes on the defence has out-passed the Oline NI players that are being brought in.

 

[TBURGESS]

It's not just about Nichol's $100K bonus, although I'm sure that it's not in the SMS budget as the Bombers would have expected that money would only be paid out if Willy was on the 6 game. It's also about paying Willy $150-$200K to hopefully sit on the bench for the rest of the season. That money could be better used elsewhere.

I get the 'we need a good vet backup QB' argument, but I don't see Willy as a good vet backup QB. Personally, I'd rather go with Davis and the extra money.

We've got about a week to make decisions on cutting vet players if we need to reduce the salaries to stay withing the SMS limit (And I think we're close). No one player is going to give us $150-200K of SMS space for half a season because no other player is getting paid 300-400K. That means dropping 2 vets to make it up. Macho Harris doesn't have much use now that Loffler's taken his spot. Hurl's being paid $120K to be a special teams player, but cutting him would hurt our NI depth. Neuf is expensive, can't stay healthy, but is on the IR so his salary is 'hidden', so not much advantage to getting rid of him. Any other suggestions?

[The Unknown Poster]

Ive said before, my main concern with Willy is if he has suffered some brain damage as a result of concussions, damage that would not be generally noticeable or impact his life but might result in split second delays or errors that impact his game.  Especially coupled with confidence issues.

But if I had to bet, I'd say Willy will come off the bench eventually, reclaim his spot and prove the doubters wrong.

[Noeller]

Anyone who thinks Willy was crap last year should go back and watch the first game of the year vs Sask. Also the game in Calgary before Stoudermire out the ball on the ground and everything unravelled. He was really good last year and then got hurt again. Not sure his confidence will ever recover and I'm glad Nichols is doing what he's doing, but Willy can be a very good QB in this league when his head's on right... 

[Mr Dee]

Some same old drums being beaten here about Willy and saving money. But what about the possibility that Walters has already factored in the worst case scenario involving his QB. Of course I don't know that, but going by his past spending record, he does seem to build in a contigency factor, and it isn't used up, he extends a few players. Is it enough? We don't know that either.

On one of the recent interviews with O'Shea, he mentioned factoring the budget for every game, or words along those lines. I took that to mean the implications of taking a player off the 6 game IR or not. But maybe he also meant the roster payroll for each game. If they included those figures, then it stands to reason they already know where they stand money-wise going forward for each game.

The Bombers have had a lot of players on the 6 game IR for a lot of the year. That's money off the books. Currently they have 11 players biding their time there, with, I would say 7 of them, earning a healthy salary. Even if you factor in their replacement costs, that money saving has built up. When, and if they come off the list, their replacements may be gone gone too.

I really don't think, if you include the long range salary management plans of the team, that we couldn't manage the Cap situation going forward without cutting Drew Willy.

These are the 11 players currently on the IR
        Adams, Darvin    
        Castillo, Sergio    
        Dressler, Weston    
        Gauthier, Shayne    
        Harris, Macho    
        Keeping, Jeff
        Neufeld, Patrick    
        Posey, Julian        
        Randle, Chris    
        Sherman, Teague    
        Smith, Ryan    

[TBURGESS]

For every player you have on the IR, you have another player who is being paid. The difference between the IR'd players salary and the playing players salary minus their bonuses (Signing, Games Played, Etc) is what we are saving on the SMS. Once the player comes off of the IR, you have to cut the guy who was playing or account for both salaries, IR the other player, or offer them a PR spot and bump on of the PR players if they take it.

Denmark's entire salary and Nichols $100K bonus wouldn't have been on the books when they set up this years SMS. Those two moves alone eat up a ton of the contingency space.

It's very possible that we could account for Willy's salary plus Nichols bonus, plus Denmark, plus the rest of the backups who are getting starting time and stay under our SMS limit. The real question should be... should we? The answer is yes if you think that Willy is a good vet QB who is worth top 6 in the league salary. It gets less obvious if you don't believe either that he's a good vet QB or he's worth his salary and I don't believe either are true.

[Mr Dee]

Let's just take the 7 players whose salaries are 'premium'. Adams, Keeping, Neufeld, Harris, Randle, Smith and Dressler. Even if you only  factor a minimum of $50k difference in salaries paid between these players, and their replacements, for a period of only  6 games, (why if I had a calculator, I'd tell you the savings,) then you have your money+ right there, wouldn't you?

[Brandon]

I LOL at people on here who are paranoid about or salary and use the most ridiculous mathematics to think that if we add one guy it will kill our salary cap and that we will be having to cut all stars left and right. 

I wonder what every other team does and how they survive with sometimes 5 qbs on the pay roll and who bring in guys left and right with out having to cut all the guys on the team.

[JCon]

8 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I LOL at people on here who are paranoid about or salary and use the most ridiculous mathematics to think that if we add one guy it will kill our salary cap and that we will be having to cut all stars left and right. 

I wonder what every other team does and how they survive with sometimes 5 qbs on the pay roll and who bring in guys left and right with out having to cut all the guys on the team.

Well, I bet those QBs are not making big $$$.

It will be a budgeting issue, for sure. Can't just 'find' $100,000 when you're spending up to the cap. Even if you cut a guy making $100,000 and replace him for 9 games with a guy making $80,000, that's only $10,000 in savings. Etc, etc, etc.

That being said, Walters has been looking at this and all the scenarios since last fall when he started putting his budget together.

[wbbfan]

8 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I LOL at people on here who are paranoid about or salary and use the most ridiculous mathematics to think that if we add one guy it will kill our salary cap and that we will be having to cut all stars left and right. 

I wonder what every other team does and how they survive with sometimes 5 qbs on the pay roll and who bring in guys left and right with out having to cut all the guys on the team.

Yeah and considering we only have vague ideas of whats reported 3rd party about players contracts with no idea what the cap space is its pretty futile. 

 Im sure our team as several others do, have a good pool saved for nfl cut down time when the PR expands. We arent in bad shape cap/roster wise like mtl and sask. So im not worried. weve got depth at imp and ni which alone means we have the ability to create the cap flexibility if we need. I trust walters, hes done a good job re building NI and over all depth. Bringing in vets, and rookies. 

[Harbaugh]

It looks like Willy's raise is the worst thing that both Walters and Willy have done in their CFL careers if in fact Willy has priced himself out of a job during the "prime" of his career. The off-season will be interesting to see what happens regarding his contract.

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, Detroit Guy said:

It looks like Willy's raise is the worst thing that both Walters and Willy have done in their CFL careers if in fact Willy has priced himself out of a job during the "prime" of his career. The off-season will be interesting to see what happens regarding his contract.

I don't see how it hurts Willy at all.  He's obviously not going to remain under a 400k+ contract if he doesn't regain his starting job this season.  However he will easily get a new contract somewhere (maybe here?) as a backup.

[TBURGESS]

29 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

Let's just take the 7 players whose salaries are 'premium'. Adams, Keeping, Neufeld, Harris, Randle, Smith and Dressler. Even if you only  factor a minimum of $50k difference in salaries paid between these players, and their replacements, for a period of only  6 games, (why if I had a calculator, I'd tell you the savings,) then you have your money+ right there, wouldn't you?

Yup, you'd have the money right there to pay the additional $100K for Nichols bonus, if you assume that every player who is on the team is making 50K less than every player who is on the IR and that we'd cut or IR all the players who are starting once we bring back the guys on the IR. It answers the question of can we afford to keep Willly, but it doesn't answer the questions of if Willy's worth what he's being paid or if he's a good vet backup QB, which are the reasons you'd want to keep him.

 

Edited August 24, 2016 by TBURGESS
added words

[Atomic]

I can't believe this debate is still ongoing.  No team in their right mind is cutting their only experienced backup QB in the middle of the season, regardless of salary.  That's just pure stupidity.  Won't happen.

[JCon]

Just now, Atomic said:

I can't believe this debate is still ongoing.  No team in their right mind is cutting their only experienced backup QB in the middle of the season, regardless of salary.  That's just pure stupidity.  Won't happen.

I don't know that the discussion is so much around cut him or not... I guess some are still advocating that... but the discussion is around cap management and how you make changes to meet the cap. Who do you cut, if you have to make tough choices.

Or just spend whatever, the Rider way.

[Harbaugh]

6 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I don't see how it hurts Willy at all.  He's obviously not going to remain under a 400k+ contract if he doesn't regain his starting job this season.  However he will easily get a new contract somewhere (maybe here?) as a backup.

Minus the ego, it has a Casey Printers feel to it IMO. If Willy can swallow his pride and take a MAJOR pay cut in the off-season then you're right it won't hurt him at all. Extra emphasis on major unless he gets into some games and plays well this year.

[TBURGESS]

4 minutes ago, Atomic said:

I can't believe this debate is still ongoing.  No team in their right mind is cutting their only experienced backup QB in the middle of the season, regardless of salary.  That's just pure stupidity.  Won't happen.

Funny, I would have said, no team in their right mind would pay a backup QB $410K, especially when he lost the starting gig a month ago. That's just pure stupidity. 

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, Detroit Guy said:

Minus the ego, it has a Casey Printers feel to it IMO. If Willy can swallow his pride and take a MAJOR pay cut in the off-season then you're right it won't hurt him at all. Extra emphasis on major unless he gets into some games and plays well this year.

Yes, but I can't see him staying here with a pay cut. If he feels the coaches have lost faith in him, why would he stay?

[Marshall]

1 minute ago, TBURGESS said:

Funny, I would have said, no team in their right mind would pay a backup QB $410K, especially when he lost the starting gig a month ago. That's just pure stupidity. 

See Ottawa

[Atomic]

Just now, TBURGESS said:

Funny, I would have said, no team in their right mind would pay a backup QB $410K, especially when he lost the starting gig a month ago. That's just pure stupidity. 

You'd be wrong though.  If there was a proven option sitting at home, or at number 3 here, maybe you'd have an argument.  At this point, you either swallow the unfortunately high salary or find a hangnail and put him on the 6-game.

Dom Davis hasn't played enough to make the leap and cut Willy and there are no experienced options out there unless you want to call Max Hall.

[JCon]

6 minutes ago, Atomic said:

You'd be wrong though.  If there was a proven option sitting at home, or at number 3 here, maybe you'd have an argument.  At this point, you either swallow the unfortunately high salary or find a hangnail and put him on the 6-game.

Dom Davis hasn't played enough to make the leap and cut Willy and there are no experienced options out there unless you want to call Max Hall.

Is Max Hall available or incarcerated?

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Anyone who thinks Willy was crap last year should go back and watch the first game of the year vs Sask. Also the game in Calgary before Stoudermire out the ball on the ground and everything unravelled. He was really good last year and then got hurt again. Not sure his confidence will ever recover and I'm glad Nichols is doing what he's doing, but Willy can be a very good QB in this league when his head's on right... 

I am pretty sure he will bounce back and regain his confidence- it's just a question of how patient our team is. 

I just remember Glenn's injury, his return and how scared he played. Once he had a little more time, he was back to form. 

 

I feel that we should show some patience w/ Drew and let him regain his game. It might take another year, he was abused and repeatedly injured behind our Oline these past 2 years. And considering (IIRC) he had never suffered a major injury prior to being a Bomber, it is a tall task to shake that fear off.

 

I still advocate we show him some more patience. Maybe in the off-season, we talk about restructuring his contract to better reflect his role on the team.  100k cap space is not hard to find- I trust our guys can be a bit creative.

Edited August 24, 2016 by wanna-b-fanboy

[TBURGESS]

6 minutes ago, Atomic said:

You'd be wrong though.  If there was a proven option sitting at home, or at number 3 here, maybe you'd have an argument.  At this point, you either swallow the unfortunately high salary or find a hangnail and put him on the 6-game.

Dom Davis hasn't played enough to make the leap and cut Willy and there are no experienced options out there unless you want to call Max Hall.

IR'ing Willy is only an advantage if he stays there longer than 6 weeks. If you 6 game Willy, he can't practice for 4 weeks. Davis takes over the #2 spot on the roster anyway. If Nichols gets hurt in the first 6 weeks, Davis goes into the game, you have no SMS advantage if you bring Willy back and Davis will have taken all the #2 reps.

Keeping Willy means we're paying about $200K for half a season of backup QB insurance that we hope we never need to use. If we do, we hope that he can find the game he had a couple of years back before all the injuries.