Nicholls's Potential Bonus

[TBURGESS]

2 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

That's not true, I have never bad mouthed Taman. He does what he does and I get it and he put better teams on the field for us than many have since so why do you think I flip flopped on my support of him? 

If that's true, then I apologize. I didn't look back, just assumed you were one of the Taman's an idiot crew.

[Jpan85]

14 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

If Nichols goes out for a long time, Willy or not, we're done. Either you don't remember the 1-4 start Willy led us to or are you're ignoring it. 

6 gaming Willy has almost all the perceived disadvantages of cutting him, and we get to pay him too. As for Nichols on the 6 game instead of Willy, his salary is less than half of what Willy makes and unless he goes down in the next 3 games, his bonus has to be paid from the SMS.

Nope, its the depth is bad if you have to vastly overpay for it argument. You're one of the first who would jump all over Taman for paying $400K+ for a backup QB, but because we're doing it, it's not only OK, but nonsense for anyone to have a different opinion.

You think that Walters went into the season saying 'How will we handle the SMS if Willy stinks the joint out so we have to start Nichols'?

If he is doing his job it's one possibility that could happen and you have to take into account. 

[Atomic]

20 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

If Nichols goes out for a long time, Willy or not, we're done. Either you don't remember the 1-4 start Willy led us to or are you're ignoring it. 

Or I'm basing my opinion of Willy on more than a 5 game stretch where the defence and OL were both playing like trash.  You and 90% of this board have given up on Willy -  great, good for you.  I'm not there yet and I don't think the coaches are either.

[TBURGESS]

2 hours ago, Atomic said:

Or I'm basing my opinion of Willy on more than a 5 game stretch where the defence and OL were both playing like trash.  You and 90% of this board have given up on Willy -  great, good for you.  I'm not there yet and I don't think the coaches are either.

I'm basing my opinion on more than 5 games too. He played great for his first 6 or 7 games then his play fell off as he got beat up and other teams realized that all they had to do was blitz him and he'd fold. In 2015 he got beat up again, was in and out of the first 7 games before being injured for the rest of the season. In 2016 he looked bad in most games unless it was garbage time.

I don't think the coaches and GM have given up on him either. They brought him in. Gave him the starters job at the signing presser. Didn't bring in any competition in the first 2 TC's. Gave him elite QB money before finding out if he was even a viable starting QB. Only brought in Nichols when the other 2 QB's proved they couldn't do the job. Blamed lack of wins in '15 on lack of Willy. Gave Willy the starting job back in '16 without competition. Finally gave Nichols a chance in the 5th game of a 1-4 start. Cutting Willy right now would be down right embarrassing and would mean they'd been wrong about him all along.

 

[Tracker]

If Willy wants to prolong his career, he should take a pay cut, sign an incentive-loaded new contract and then work like a dog to show to the coaches that he still has what they thought they saw in him. He has to know that there is no long-term future for an overpaid back-up.

[Guest J5V]

Willy is a very good QB that has suffered some awful injuries in a few short years.

Physically, Willy is not the same and may never be. That knee injury appears to have slowed him down tremendously. He does not move or run the same as he did when he first got here. That may never change. To be successful he is going to have to learn how to play within his physical limitations. This can be done. Lots of QBs have come back from serious injuries. Willy has to figure that out and adapt his game. 

As Yogi Berra famously said "Baseball is 90% mental and the other half is physical". Mentally, Willy appears to have lost some confidence. He needs to get his mojo back and I believe he will. I believe Willy was successful in the past because of his mental makeup, not because of his physical makeup. He was never the fastest running QB nor did he have the strongest arm or the quickest release. I believe he was successful because he believed in himself and his ability to get the job done and to do whatever it took to win. 

There are reasons he may never be the QB he once was physically but there is no reason he can't be the QB he once was mentally. He is one winning performance away from being that self-assured QB that used to will us to victory against all odds. There is no way in hell I give up on a guy like that. No way.

[iso_55]

That's a tall order J5V. Everybody handles things differently. I'm sure Willy will play again this season. Then we'll know if being benched helped or not. He'll have to play well right away the next time he gets his chance.

[Mr Dee]

8 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

if you assume that every player who is on the team is making 50K less than every player who is on the IR and that we'd cut or IR all the players who are starting once we bring back the guys on the IR.

^^^

 

It answers the question of can we afford to keep Willly, but it doesn't answer the questions of if Willy's worth what he's being paid or if he's a good vet backup QB, which are the reasons you'd want to keep him.

 

^^^But that's not what I said.

It's not every player, it's the 7 players I mentioned. The difference in what we pay Dressler, Smith, Adams, Neufeld, Keepin, Harris, and Randle, over their replacements, would surely be over 50K. I was underestimating to make a point. 

Quote

Even if you only  factor a minimum of $50k difference in salaries paid between these players, and their replacements, for a period of only  6 games,

As to the 2nd part of your post...Willy is being paid what he is being paid. Willy will now back up Nichols until such time as something else happens. It's time for you to accept that, put in a drawer, and move on. You probably don't have any hair left by constantly pulling at it with the mere suggestion that Willy WILL NOT BE CUT.

(pretend that we set aside 600K for the starting QB and his backup...no matter who or whom, does it really matter if who starts or if whom begins the game - salary-wise?)

[rebusrankin]

To be fair, with his bonus, Nichols makes what $250,000 and Willy is at 400,000. Anybody else suspect that Burris/Harris make a combined $650,000? Perhaps we're all overreacting.

[Judd]

Just happened to be looking at career numbers of Willy and Nichols. As it stands today they've both thrown 36 touchdowns in their careers. Willy has thrown 28 interceptions to Nichols 26. They both came into the league in 2012 and over that time Willy has accumulated 972 attempts with 650 completions and Nichols has 495 completions on 799 attempts.
Willy averages 8.3 yards per completion to Nichols 8.0, though.

OBVIOUSLY there are so many other factors at play here, but I just thought it was a quick little bit of interesting info. Nichols isn't flashy, but he throws a heck a lot more TD's than Willy. I've been a Willy supporter and have his jersey, and although I don't believe Matt Nichols is the answer, he does seem to be more effective in scoring TD's in his time on the field. 

Also I didn't know where else to put this and didn't feel it needed it's own thread.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Judd

[Tracker]

17 minutes ago, Judd said:

Just happened to be looking at career numbers of Willy and Nichols. As it stands today they've both thrown 36 touchdowns in their careers. Willy has thrown 28 interceptions to Nichols 26. They both came into the league in 2012 and over that time Willy has accumulated 972 attempts with 650 completions and Nichols has 495 completions on 799 attempts.
Willy averages 8.3 yards per completion to Nichols 8.0, though.

OBVIOUSLY there are so many other factors at play here, but I just thought it was a quick little bit of interesting info. Nichols isn't flashy, but he throws a heck a lot more TD's than Willy. I've been a Willy supporter and have his jersey, and although I don't believe Matt Nichols is the answer, he does seem to be more effective in scoring TD's in his time on the field. 

Also I didn't know where else to put this and didn't feel it needed it's own thread.

The way it looks now is that Nichols has progressed and Willy has regressed. It may also be that Nichols is a better fit for LaPolice's offence.

[Dragon37]

While the few tweaks they were forced to make on the line helped I still think Willy was his own worst enemy. Far more than the o-line. The biggest difference between Nichols and Willy is that Nichols has been able to execute the offence the way it was designed Willy wasn't. Willy often held the ball far to long and he just wasn't progressing through his reads fast enough. If you are holding the ball on three the you more often doomed ... Unless you can scramble.

I don't blame Willy for his issues though I blame that on those who refused to see and properly deal with them.

[17to85]

11 minutes ago, Dragon37 said:

While the few tweaks they were forced to make on the line helped I still think Willy was his own worst enemy. Far more than the o-line. The biggest difference between Nichols and Willy is that Nichols has been able to execute the offence the way it was designed Willy wasn't. Willy often held the ball far to long and he just wasn't progressing through his reads fast enough. If you are holding the ball on three the you more often doomed ... Unless you can scramble.

I don't blame Willy for his issues though I blame that on those who refused to see and properly deal with them.

But those tweaks to the OL allowed them to actually establish the run which gives a qb more options because the defense has to account for that. There's a reason that they always say it starts in the trenches, because it does. Don't diminish the enormous change Bond brought to the OL, and I'm not talking about his size. 

[Mark H.]

It seems we've been waiting for years for the kind of import OL we have now. Guards and tackles who dominate in the trenches. 

[iso_55]

The absolute foundation of a championship team is the OL. We build that & we will win a championship.

[LimJahey]

On 8/23/2016 at 6:22 PM, 17to85 said:

"won the jobs" more like Neufeld was handed a job he didn't deserve because of the ratio. If they were really trying to put the best OL on the field from day 1 they would have made 3 americans the starters there from day 1. It's night and day the difference it's made to the run game which helps the quarterback and the entire offense. Willy had the duck and cover routine down pat cause he never trusted anyone to block for him, Nichols has a lot less to worry about behind centre than Willy ever did. 

Oh so now you're saying its O'shea/ Lapo fault for not fielding the best team? Please keep defending Willy because you're not getting anywhere

[MyDogHasScheifeles]

9 hours ago, 17to85 said:

But those tweaks to the OL allowed them to actually establish the run which gives a qb more options because the defense has to account for that. There's a reason that they always say it starts in the trenches, because it does. Don't diminish the enormous change Bond brought to the OL, and I'm not talking about his size. 

Throwing deep on his first two or three passes vs the Esks opened up the run game. You just told the D that they crowd the line (like they did in WPG)we will burn you deep. That opens things for the run game. Yes the oline is better but this came first and had a huge effect in the game and must be acknowledged. Happened vs Hamilton too and didn't happen in the first half vs TO. See a pattern occuring?

[TBURGESS]

15 hours ago, Mr Dee said:

^^^But that's not what I said.

It's not every player, it's the 7 players I mentioned. The difference in what we pay Dressler, Smith, Adams, Neufeld, Keepin, Harris, and Randle, over their replacements, would surely be over 50K. I was underestimating to make a point. 

As to the 2nd part of your post...Willy is being paid what he is being paid. Willy will now back up Nichols until such time as something else happens. It's time for you to accept that, put in a drawer, and move on. You probably don't have any hair left by constantly pulling at it with the mere suggestion that Willy WILL NOT BE CUT.

(pretend that we set aside 600K for the starting QB and his backup...no matter who or whom, does it really matter if who starts or if whom begins the game - salary-wise?)

The point I was trying to make is that none of those 7 players can come back early, even if they are ready, because their entire salaries would then count towards the SMS. 

As I've said before, I know that Willy won't be cut. The question's never been 'What will the Bombers do?', it's been 'What should the Bombers do?'. It's not 'How can we afford it?', it's 'Is paying Willy that much money to warm the bench the best use of the money?'.

Sure, we set aside a certain amount for the QB spot and Nichols bonus will put us $100K over that number. Assuming we can find it without taking from Willy's salary we'd have an extra $150-200K to extend players we want to keep like Chungh or to sign a couple of $150-200K players (It's half the season). I think that's better than paying Willy. You don't. It's as simple as that.

[MyDogHasScheifeles]

Well this is a good problem to have when compaired to our neighbours to the left. They have $145000 wastsed on bonuses paid out to players signed in the off season that are no longer there.

Add the $26000 fine and that is a hot mess.

Edited August 25, 2016 by MyDogHasScheifeles

[iso_55]

3 hours ago, LimJahey said:

Oh so now you're saying its O'shea/ Lapo fault for not fielding the best team? Please keep defending Willy because you're not getting anywhere

A few months ago the same people now defending Willy by saying he had a shitty line blocking for him compared to Nicholls are the same ones who defended the OL a couple of months ago by saying Willy was holding onto the ball too long. So it was his fault for the majority of the sacks we had, they said. Especially after Bob Wylie whined, bitched & snarled at the local media at training camp over the record number of qb sacks the past 2 seasons before this one. Then Willy got benched & Nicholls started winning. Now the same people have conveniently gone back to blaming the OL for Willy's poor play yet seemingly giving no credit to Nicholls for guiding the Bombers to 3 wins.

[Atomic]

1 minute ago, iso_55 said:

A few months ago the same people now defending Willy by saying he had a shitty line blocking for him compared to Nicholls are the same ones who defended the OL a couple of months ago by saying Willy was holding onto the ball too long. So it was his fault for the majority of the sacks we had, they said. Especially after Bob Wylie whined, bitched & snarled at the local media at training camp over the record number of qb sacks the past 2 seasons before this one. Then Willy got benched & Nicholls started winning. Now the same people have conveniently gone back to blaming the OL for Willy's poor play yet seemingly giving no credit to Nicholls for guiding the Bombers to 3 wins.

Really?  Is it "the same people" saying all these things?  You must have a remarkable memory for who said what, and when.

[Noeller]

35 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Really?  Is it "the same people" saying all these things?  You must have a remarkable memory for who said what, and when.

that's where I was going to go.......I defended Willy by saying the OL and general protection schemes ****** him over from Day 1. I don't know where crazy old man Iso is getting his latest theories from...

[17to85]

4 hours ago, LimJahey said:

Oh so now you're saying its O'shea/ Lapo fault for not fielding the best team? Please keep defending Willy because you're not getting anywhere

I'm saying that they were hell bent on having more canadians on the OL than they should have based on the talent. Can you deny that the OL is a hell of a lot better since going 3 americans there? 

[17to85]

4 hours ago, MyDogHasScheifeles said:

Throwing deep on his first two or three passes vs the Esks opened up the run game. You just told the D that they crowd the line (like they did in WPG)we will burn you deep. That opens things for the run game. Yes the oline is better but this came first and had a huge effect in the game and must be acknowledged. Happened vs Hamilton too and didn't happen in the first half vs TO. See a pattern occuring?

You know what opened up the run game? Bond being more of a man than anyone on the esks defense and moving them out of the way so that Harris didn't have to start making guys miss in the backfield. 

[LimJahey]

22 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

I'm saying that they were hell bent on having more canadians on the OL than they should have based on the talent. Can you deny that the OL is a hell of a lot better since going 3 americans there? 

Oh i definitely agree they are better now... i still believe that Willy had more than ample opportunity with what he had.

Some of the main reasons i think we had problems don't even stem from the Oline in the beginning. Willy was having a hell of a time throwing the ball, which allowed defences to stack the box and completely shut down our rushing attack. In the game against Calgary Harris averaged .5 yards rushing in the first half...  almost every time we were caught in a 2nd and long situation and Willy is obviously incapable of throwing long so there you go... 3 n out.