Nicholls's Potential Bonus

[Mark H.]

29 minutes ago, LimJahey said:

Oh i definitely agree they are better now... i still believe that Willy had more than ample opportunity with what he had.

Some of the main reasons i think we had problems don't even stem from the Oline in the beginning. Willy was having a hell of a time throwing the ball, which allowed defences to stack the box and completely shut down our rushing attack. In the game against Calgary Harris averaged .5 yards rushing in the first half...  almost every time we were caught in a 2nd and long situation and Willy is obviously incapable of throwing long so there you go... 3 n out.

This was definitely an issue. Hard to say if it was physical or mental. It was clearly in the playbook, because Nicholls stretched the field immediately 

[MyDogHasScheifeles]

52 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

You know what opened up the run game? Bond being more of a man than anyone on the esks defense and moving them out of the way so that Harris didn't have to start making guys miss in the backfield. 

While I agree with you that Bond is great  and the running game has ignited since his emergance. The fact is Harris does not run every play behind Bond. Infact maybe a third of the plays are through the A and B gap that he inhabits. If it was all Bond and only Bond why are we getting huge runs off tackle and on Chungh's side of the line. It is more of a Nichols factor then a Bond factor. Case in point the the Toronto game. The run game did nothing in the first half even though Bond was on the field for every snap. The run game only woke up after Nichols woke up and made plays. The run game is more dependant on a competent qb that pushes the ball downfield then a great guard. Bond is an important part of the running game put Nichols play on the field is a larger factor.

 

[17to85]

7 minutes ago, MyDogHasScheifeles said:

While I agree with you that Bond is great  and the running game has ignited since his emergance. The fact is Harris does not run every play behind Bond. Infact maybe a third of the plays are through the A and B gap that he inhabits. If it was all Bond and only Bond why are we getting huge runs off tackle and on Chungh's side of the line. It is more of a Nichols factor then a Bond factor. Case in point the the Toronto game. The run game did nothing in the first half even though Bond was on the field for every snap. The run game only woke up after Nichols woke up and made plays. The run game is more dependant on a competent qb that pushes the ball downfield then a great guard. Bond is an important part of the running game put Nichols play on the field is a larger factor.

 

How about because Putting Bond in at guard also means that Neufeld who is a terrible player is out for a much better American and that makes the entire line stronger across the board. Hardrick or Foketi is so much better at RT than Neufeld and Bond is better at guard than Hardrick was there as well. It strengths two positions on the OL and we know that Bryant is a good one and we know that Chungh is capable of being a good one so all of a sudden we got some strength in the position and everything opens up. Nichols provided a spark by not having been beaten down by years of **** kickings behind poor offensive lines but he didn't make those guys play better, changing the ratio made those guys play better and it's making the offense better moreso than a simple change at qb did. 

[Noeller]

I'll add that it makes Bryant and others play better because they're not having to cover up for other people's mistakes and can concentrate on their own job. That was absolutely a problem in the past...

[MyDogHasScheifeles]

7 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

How about because Putting Bond in at guard also means that Neufeld who is a terrible player is out for a much better American and that makes the entire line stronger across the board. Hardrick or Foketi is so much better at RT than Neufeld and Bond is better at guard than Hardrick was there as well. It strengths two positions on the OL and we know that Bryant is a good one and we know that Chungh is capable of being a good one so all of a sudden we got some strength in the position and everything opens up. Nichols provided a spark by not having been beaten down by years of **** kickings behind poor offensive lines but he didn't make those guys play better, changing the ratio made those guys play better and it's making the offense better moreso than a simple change at qb did. 

This is very true and I can get behind that. This offensive unit is a better unit without Neufeld. Nichols pushing the ball down field is still a huge factor because defences can't stack the line of scrimmage and just focus on defending the run.

[blitzmore]

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

The point I was trying to make is that none of those 7 players can come back early, even if they are ready, because their entire salaries would then count towards the SMS. 

As I've said before, I know that Willy won't be cut. The question's never been 'What will the Bombers do?', it's been 'What should the Bombers do?'. It's not 'How can we afford it?', it's 'Is paying Willy that much money to warm the bench the best use of the money?'.

Sure, we set aside a certain amount for the QB spot and Nichols bonus will put us $100K over that number. Assuming we can find it without taking from Willy's salary we'd have an extra $150-200K to extend players we want to keep like Chungh or to sign a couple of $150-200K players (It's half the season). I think that's better than paying Willy. You don't. It's as simple as that.

Your arguments fit the perfect definition of tunnel vision.

Edited August 25, 2016 by blitzmore

[Fatty Liver]

2 hours ago, Noeller said:

I'll add that it makes Bryant and others play better because they're not having to cover up for other people's mistakes and can concentrate on their own job. That was absolutely a problem in the past...

Goosen is playing so much better then he did through the first 4 games, it's a remarkable transition.

[Guest J5V]

17 hours ago, 17to85 said:

But those tweaks to the OL allowed them to actually establish the run which gives a qb more options because the defense has to account for that. There's a reason that they always say it starts in the trenches, because it does. Don't diminish the enormous change Bond brought to the OL, and I'm not talking about his size. 

This, more than anything else, has allowed Nichols to flourish where Willy has faltered. I'd love to see Willy behind this Oline. I think he might surprise.

[Valderan_CA]

Just now, J5V said:

This, more than anything else, has allowed Nichols to flourish where Willy has faltered. I'd love to see Willy behind this Oline. I think he might surprise.

The thing is - Willy had some of the same opportunities to push the ball downfield that Nichols has taken... he just consistently missed open targets when he had the deep ball opportunities.

If a team doesn't feel like the opposing QB is going to burn them downfield (which Willy showed he was increasingly gun shy in trying to do) they just tee up on the short stuff.

 

[Mike]

2 minutes ago, Valderan_CA said:

The thing is - Willy had some of the same opportunities to push the ball downfield that Nichols has taken... he just consistently missed open targets when he had the deep ball opportunities.

If a team doesn't feel like the opposing QB is going to burn them downfield (which Willy showed he was increasingly gun shy in trying to do) they just tee up on the short stuff.

 

I'm hopeful that when Willy gets another opportunity, he'll show that the time he had riding pine was to his benefit. The guy used to have a pretty good deep ball.

[Guest J5V]

On 23/08/2016 at 7:22 PM, 17to85 said:

"won the jobs" more like Neufeld was handed a job he didn't deserve because of the ratio. If they were really trying to put the best OL on the field from day 1 they would have made 3 americans the starters there from day 1. It's night and day the difference it's made to the run game which helps the quarterback and the entire offense. Willy had the duck and cover routine down pat cause he never trusted anyone to block for him, Nichols has a lot less to worry about behind centre than Willy ever did. 

 

8 hours ago, LimJahey said:

Oh so now you're saying its O'shea/ Lapo fault for not fielding the best team? Please keep defending Willy because you're not getting anywhere

Actually, I agree with him. The difference with that Oline is night and day, as he said. The fixation with all the nats on the Oline these last few years has been disastrous. That's not on Lapo as much as it is on Walters and O'Shea.

[wbbfan]

12 minutes ago, Valderan_CA said:

The thing is - Willy had some of the same opportunities to push the ball downfield that Nichols has taken... he just consistently missed open targets when he had the deep ball opportunities.

If a team doesn't feel like the opposing QB is going to burn them downfield (which Willy showed he was increasingly gun shy in trying to do) they just tee up on the short stuff.

 

The two certainly have not had similar opportunities. The ol play, the health of wrs, the play calling has clearly opened up etc. Its hard to compare all things considered. 

As a team we havent done well with deep shots this year. Despite the amount of runs, and short passes we havent yet used that to set up longer routes. Maybe some thing thats coming in the 2nd half. 

12 minutes ago, Mike said:

I'm hopeful that when Willy gets another opportunity, he'll show that the time he had riding pine was to his benefit. The guy used to have a pretty good deep ball.

Idk how i feel about willy coming off the bench. On one hand, i cant see it happening short of more great struggles from the offense. Or a losing streak. Or an injury to nichols. None of which i really want to see. I would like to see what willy has left and if the benching has lite a denmark esq fire under his butt or if hes mentally checked out. The thought of him going to another team and danny macing us in the future is awful. he certainly has the most potential between he and nichols. 

He really had nice touch on his passes. Some times qbs fall into a tendency of trying to throw a 40 yard pass on a 20 yard out. Forcing the ball, not relaxing in their mechanics and really trying to whip it at max velocity. And that leads to a lot of misses in the general area of the target. The disappearing act of his touch especially on greater then short passes could be due to that. Trying to over arm toss a ball can also cause it to leave the hand late, which brings on passes at the knees and lower. All of which could be fixed with a hard reset of benching. 

Its really all gonna boil down to, if he gets the chance, and if he has re found confidence. Relaxing and getting back to what he knows is what would bring him to his best level of play.

[Tracker]

11 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

The two certainly have not had similar opportunities. The ol play, the health of wrs, the play calling has clearly opened up etc. Its hard to compare all things considered. 

As a team we havent done well with deep shots this year. Despite the amount of runs, and short passes we havent yet used that to set up longer routes. Maybe some thing thats coming in the 2nd half. 

Idk how i feel about willy coming off the bench. On one hand, i cant see it happening short of more great struggles from the offense. Or a losing streak. Or an injury to nichols. None of which i really want to see. I would like to see what willy has left and if the benching has lite a denmark esq fire under his butt or if hes mentally checked out. The thought of him going to another team and danny macing us in the future is awful. he certainly has the most potential between he and nichols. 

He really had nice touch on his passes. Some times qbs fall into a tendency of trying to throw a 40 yard pass on a 20 yard out. Forcing the ball, not relaxing in their mechanics and really trying to whip it at max velocity. And that leads to a lot of misses in the general area of the target. The disappearing act of his touch especially on greater then short passes could be due to that. Trying to over arm toss a ball can also cause it to leave the hand late, which brings on passes at the knees and lower. All of which could be fixed with a hard reset of benching. 

Its really all gonna boil down to, if he gets the chance, and if he has re found confidence. Relaxing and getting back to what he knows is what would bring him to his best level of play.

Depending on his ego strength, having to come off the bench in a do-or-die situation could be the worst thing to happen to him. I used to golf with a guy who was way better than me, but as soon as money was on the game, he folded like a cheap tent. Some people just overthink and screw themselves up.

[wbbfan]

2 minutes ago, tracker said:

Depending on his ego strength, having to come off the bench in a do-or-die situation could be the worst thing to happen to him. I used to golf with a guy who was way better than me, but as soon as money was on the game, he folded like a cheap tent. Some people just overthink and screw themselves up.

could be. Could be good for him. Cant say really. IIRC ricky ray was a strong starter and jason maas had to close games. Or it was the other way around. 

Usually, coming off the bench is easier as you dont have any of the pressure on you. But we wont know how he is till/if it happens.

[JohnnyOnTheSpot]

The o-line IS better but not that much better that it explains the results.

Coaching quotes:

Pierce says Nichols' greatest strength is his ability to see things and process them quickly.

Watch the film, Wylie says, and you'll find running backs, receivers, even quarterbacks screwing up, too.  “I can tell you the first year (2014) we gave up 71 (as a team). The line gave up 27."

I subscribe to the theory that everyone looks better because Nichols has been decisive and smart with the football.

 

[iso_55]

6 hours ago, Atomic said:

Really?  Is it "the same people" saying all these things?  You must have a remarkable memory for who said what, and when.

Yeah, I do actually. Thank you.

[TBURGESS]

Darrin Bauming - ‏@DarrinBauming `@FarhanLaljiTSN just told us he's hearing a conversation will be had between Drew Willy and the #Bombers to renegotiate his contract.

Best of both worlds. Keep Willy for those who think he's still got something to give and reduce the SMS hit for those who think he's being grossly overpaid.

[iso_55]

If they can renegotiate Willy's contract down that'll be a great thing financially for the team.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I'm hopeful that when Willy gets another opportunity, he'll show that the time he had riding pine was to his benefit. The guy used to have a pretty good deep ball.

Is it really a stretch to think that Willy might have been rushing his deep throws given all the hits he's taken? I mean **** you don't set up properly your throw is going to be tougher to make automatically. 

[sweep the leg]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

Darrin Bauming - ‏@DarrinBauming `@FarhanLaljiTSN just told us he's hearing a conversation will be had between Drew Willy and the #Bombers to renegotiate his contract.

Best of both worlds. Keep Willy for those who think he's still got something to give and reduce the SMS hit for those who think he's being grossly overpaid.

Great if he's agreeable to it. 

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

Darrin Bauming - ‏@DarrinBauming `@FarhanLaljiTSN just told us he's hearing a conversation will be had between Drew Willy and the #Bombers to renegotiate his contract.

Best of both worlds. Keep Willy for those who think he's still got something to give and reduce the SMS hit for those who think he's being grossly overpaid.

It should also allow the Bombers (and fans) to give Willy more slack and maybe even take some pressure off him,

[wbbfan]

2 hours ago, iso_55 said:

If they can renegotiate Willy's contract down that'll be a great thing financially for the team.

not just financially finding a back up thats willy or better isnt easy. This would be an awesome move if we can swing it. 

[iso_55]

I certainly would have a ton of respect for Willy if he did.

[Tracker]

15 hours ago, iso_55 said:

I certainly would have a ton of respect for Willy if he did.

I'm pretty sure that Willy did not come forward and ask to restructure his contract, but reality has to intrude somewhere. Either he signs the new deal or he rolls the dice that someone else will pick him up for a fat contract, and Willy's resume does not inspire confidence.

[Atomic]

37 minutes ago, tracker said:

I'm pretty sure that Willy did not come forward and ask to restructure his contract, but reality has to intrude somewhere. Either he signs the new deal or he rolls the dice that someone else will pick him up for a fat contract, and Willy's resume does not inspire confidence.

Why does it have to be a fat contract elsewhere?  I doubt the Bombers would re-negotiate Willy into a fat contract.... I imagine they would be looking to drop him down to backup QB salary, which he could easily get elsewhere.