Miller starting contract extension talks with Walters O'Shea

[TBURGESS]

Dickenson as our HC instead of O'Shea?

As an OC and ex QB, I doubt he'd have chosen Willy and anointed him as the starter as the first presser. If he'd got Willy, I doubt he'd have kept him in games he was obviously not producing and getting beaten up. I doubt our O line would have looked as bad under Dickenson's offense. He's managed tons of O line changes in Calgary including using D lineman on the O line and the offense kept producing. We wouldn't have had to put up with 2 years of Bellefeuille, which would likely have resulted in more wins. I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen Etcheverry as the DC, which would have likely resulted in more wins.

[Atomic]

What's going on in this thread?  Dickenson vs O'Shea?  Did we have a shot at hiring Dickenson?  Should we do a Belichick vs O'Shea comparison next?

[Mike]

Some people can just never be happy.

[yogi]

42 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Should we do a Belichick vs O'Shea comparison next?

Only on their sideline fashion choices. (They're both style geniuses)

[Bigblue204]

15 hours ago, J5V said:

He was Kyle Walters' buddy? Other than that, I have no idea. I have always thought it was a strange hiring. STs coordinators rarely if ever get hired as Head Coaches, especially without being mentored for a number of years by a Head Coach. We're into year three with O'Shea and he certainly has a much more talented group of players now than when he started thanks to Walters. But even after three years, he still makes questionable decisions, the team still doesn't play 60 minutes of football, still appears to start slowly, takes too many penalties, etc. Things that he should have corrected by now. I can't help but wonder how good this team would be with, say, a guy like Dave Dickenson, at the controls. I think Walters has shown his worth by the body of work he has produced. He may now be one of the top GMs in the league. I have a tough time believing O'Shea is one of the top Head Coaches in the league. He might be better than he was when he started but that isn't saying much considering how green and raw he was. Walters has already been doing this job in some capacity for 6 years now.

Yeah it's not the stamps have ever took a half of football off during this season.....nope, not once, or even twice, or even ever!!!

You do realize that a coach can only do so much right? You can't actually stop players from taking penalties, or not playing properly for 4qrts. Well I guess you could, but you'd need a much bigger roster.

This thread is hilarious. Dickenson isn't the greatest coach of all time. He was legitimately handed a Champion calibre team. It's not hard to see why he's been so successful.

MOS took a very different path to get to success, it being different doesn't devalue it. The amount of time it took doesn't devalue it. It's just different. 

[WBBFanWest]

49 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Dickenson as our HC instead of O'Shea?

As an OC and ex QB, I doubt he'd have chosen Willy and anointed him as the starter as the first presser. If he'd got Willy, I doubt he'd have kept him in games he was obviously not producing and getting beaten up. I doubt our O line would have looked as bad under Dickenson's offense. He's managed tons of O line changes in Calgary including using D lineman on the O line and the offense kept producing. We wouldn't have had to put up with 2 years of Bellefeuille, which would likely have resulted in more wins. I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen Etcheverry as the DC, which would have likely resulted in more wins.

Dickenson might have if he was told "This is the guy you're getting as your starter QB, unless you want Max hall instead."   As for pulling Willy, yes I agree that it did appear that sometimes it might have been better to let Willy sit, but that might be a bit of the rookie coming out in O'Shea.  That and the fact that if you pulled Willy, you end up putting in Brian Brohm, which would give any sane HC pause.  And it's easy to say "Dickenson would have made our O-line better" but you have absolutely no way of knowing that, and let's face it, you've been wrong before.

As for coordinators, I too was not at all happy with them, but rather than focusing on how bad we were, I'd rather look forward and appreciate that we really seem to have turned a corner.   Also, I'm not going to pretend that I'm so much smarter than the GM and HC just because I can use hindsight and they can't.

[yogi]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

Dickenson as our HC instead of O'Shea?

As an OC and ex QB, I doubt he'd have chosen Willy and anointed him as the starter as the first presser. If he'd got Willy, I doubt he'd have kept him in games he was obviously not producing and getting beaten up. I doubt our O line would have looked as bad under Dickenson's offense. He's managed tons of O line changes in Calgary including using D lineman on the O line and the offense kept producing. We wouldn't have had to put up with 2 years of Bellefeuille, which would likely have resulted in more wins. I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen Etcheverry as the DC, which would have likely resulted in more wins.

You have extraordinary powers of hindsight. You should be a guest on the morning news.

[mbrg]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

Some people can just never be happy.

Only one column in his balance sheet.

[Mr Dee]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

 

You're making a lot of assumptions in your version of this switch over. 

I know it really bothers you that Willy was anointed the starting QB. It's really a burr in your gess. But this was what Dickenson would have been presented with. That roster. He cannot bring the roster depth of Calgary over with him in J5V's scenario. 

The only thing Dicky boy would have had was a better OC. On that we can agree. The rest is pure conjecture...

Edited October 21, 2016 by Mr Dee

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Dickenson as our HC instead of O'Shea?

As an OC and ex QB, I doubt he'd have chosen Willy and anointed him as the starter as the first presser. If he'd got Willy, I doubt he'd have kept him in games he was obviously not producing and getting beaten up. I doubt our O line would have looked as bad under Dickenson's offense. He's managed tons of O line changes in Calgary including using D lineman on the O line and the offense kept producing. We wouldn't have had to put up with 2 years of Bellefeuille, which would likely have resulted in more wins. I'm sure he wouldn't have chosen Etcheverry as the DC, which would have likely resulted in more wins.

except that OC and ex QB Scott Milanovich did that....

[TBURGESS]

13 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

You're making a lot of assumptions in your version of this switch over. 

I know it really bothers you that Willy was anointed the starting QB. It's really a burr in your gess. But this was what Dickenson would have been presented with. That roster. He cannot bring the roster depth of Calgary over with him in J5V's scenario. 

The only thing Dicky boy would have had was a better OC. On that we can agree. The rest is pure conjecture...

Of course it's conjecture. What else could it be? 

The idea that Dickenson would have made any of the same roster decisions that O'Shea did is also conjecture as is the idea that he'd be saddled with Willy. Maybe Tate would have followed his OC to Winnipeg. I'm not suggesting that Dickenson could bring over Calgary's roster depth. I am suggesting that he'd make different decisions which could have given us better results. I'm also suggesting that he wouldn't have made anywhere near as many rookie mistakes, because he'd made very few of the this year.

[TBURGESS]

9 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

except that OC and ex QB Scott Milanovich did that....

So what? Milanovich is making the same error as O'Shea. Doesn't make either of the right.

[Bigblue204]

2 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Of course it's conjecture. What else could it be? 

The idea that Dickenson would have made any of the same roster decisions that O'Shea did is also conjecture as is the idea that he'd be saddled with Willy. Maybe Tate would have followed his OC to Winnipeg. I'm not suggesting that Dickenson could bring over Calgary's roster depth. I am suggesting that he'd make different decisions which could have given us better results. I'm also suggesting that he wouldn't have made anywhere near as many rookie mistakes, because he'd made very few of the this year.

To be fair, he hasn't faced nearly as much adversity as any other rookie HC in a very long time. It's easy to look good, when everything goes your way.

[Mr Dee]

Quote

Maybe Tate would have followed his OC to Winnipeg.

No, no, no, you can't colour outside the lines.

Quote

I am suggesting that he'd make different decisions which could have given us better results.

Well, that's the conjecture part..

Quote

I'm also suggesting that he wouldn't have made anywhere near as many rookie mistakes, because he'd made very few of the this year.

Does the name John Hufnagel mean anything to you? I firmly believe that Hufnagel was there for Dickenson in many decisions made by the football team. 

And as far as on-field decisions, Bigblue204 is right about the difficulties that Dickenson has faced. They're not the same.

[TBURGESS]

9 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

To be fair, he hasn't faced nearly as much adversity as any other rookie HC in a very long time. It's easy to look good, when everything goes your way.

To be fair everything hasn't gone Dickenson's way. 

From BlueInCGY on that other site:

Quote

... Jorden had what, three games in two years prior to this year?  Daniels had none.  Grant and West were six gamed.   Federkeil (6 game), Grozman (6 game), Erdos (6 game), Lavertu (6 game), Richards, Thorn (6 game), and Bergman have all missed significant time.  So effectively, the only constants on offense have been BLM, Messam, and McDaniel.  I don't care who you are, without fantastic coaching you don't set CFL season record and lock up first place overall with 5 games left with only three constants on offense.

Defense - Singleton, Campbell, Davis, and Evans  all had three starts or less prior to 2016.  

 

[TBURGESS]

1 minute ago, Mr Dee said:

No, no, no, you can't colour outside the lines.

So you want the assumption to be that Dickenson would have made all the same decisions as O'Shea did. He'd have the exact same roster. He'd stick with vets who weren't playing well too long. He'd start 8 NI's even tho he didn't have 8 viable NI starters. He'd keep the O line the same. He'd not try 3 INT's, He'd hire horrible coordinators. He wouldn't realize they were bad until way after the common fan did. He'd make excuses for players.  Yup... under the assumption that Dickenson wouldn't have made any different decisions he wouldn't make any difference, but that's not reasonable to assume.

[bb1]

I have been as critical of MOS as anyone on this board but what I missed and what seems to have been MOS biggest mistakes is the assistants that he hired.Now that he has the help of 2 decent OC and DC coordinators it has made a huge difference Imo. Plus the fact players want to play for him and even sign here because of MOS can't be overlooked. Give him another 3 years he definitely deserves it...?

[WBBFanWest]

11 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

To be fair everything hasn't gone Dickenson's way. 

From BlueInCGY on that other site: "People got injured"

 

Ok, let's play the conjecture game.  What do you think would have happened if Dickenson had been the HC for the Bombers in 2014 and had been hit with the same level of injuries to the offence as he's had this year in Calgary?  Given the overall depth level of the 2014 Bombers vs the 2016 Stampeders, I'm conjecting that he wouldn't be looking like some sort of boy genius coach.  I'm betting he'd look a lot like a scrawnyer version of 2014 O'Shea.  Hey this conjecture stuff is easy!

[yogi]

Different people make different decisions that lead to different results!? This is some ground breaking **** boys

[TBURGESS]

7 minutes ago, WBBFanWest said:

Ok, let's play the conjecture game.  What do you think would have happened if Dickenson had been the HC for the Bombers in 2014 and had been hit with the same level of injuries to the offence as he's had this year in Calgary?  Given the overall depth level of the 2014 Bombers vs the 2016 Stampeders, I'm conjecting that he wouldn't be looking like some sort of boy genius coach.  I'm betting he'd look a lot like a scrawnyer version of 2014 O'Shea.  Hey this conjecture stuff is easy!

If I'm getting this right, you're saying if something way worse than what happened to O'Shea in 2014 happened to Dickenson, then he would look just like O'Shea did in 2014. I guess the conjecture stuff isn't as easy as you thought it would be.

[voodoochylde]

1 hour ago, bb1 said:

I have been as critical of MOS as anyone on this board but what I missed and what seems to have been MOS biggest mistakes is the assistants that he hired.Now that he has the help of 2 decent OC and DC coordinators it has made a huge difference Imo. Plus the fact players want to play for him and even sign here because of MOS can't be overlooked. Give him another 3 years he definitely deserves it...?

Let's not presume that some of his selections for assistant's were his first (or even second) choice.  Winnipeg was not seen as a darling spot for would be coordinators. It was a coaching graveyard. This has changed much like how Winnipeg was once not a desirable option for would be free agents.

[Mike]

10 minutes ago, voodoochylde said:

Let's not presume that some of his selections for assistant's were his first (or even second) choice.  Winnipeg was not seen as a darling spot for would be coordinators. It was a coaching graveyard. This has changed much like how Winnipeg was once not a desirable option for would be free agents.

We already know they weren't his first choice.

He wanted Stubler and Maas.

[17to85]

Calgary has been able to plug and play guys who are injured for many seasons now, fact is that Hufnagel has built a pretty damned talented and deep team over there and they were good with him coaching it and they continue to be good with Dickenson coaching them and I suggest that the reason for that is they have depth that allows them to not stumble when players are hurt. That was the single biggest thing holding the Bombers back the 2 seasons prior to this one. The team got hurt and fell apart because the depth ******* sucked. The biggest change this season? There is a lot more depth on the team and despite injuries they have kept on rolling. 

 

See how this works? Have a deep team that can over come injuries and suddenly your coaches look a hell of a lot smarter than when they don't have depth and injuries **** the whole thing up. 

[voodoochylde]

Just now, Mike said:

We already know they weren't his first choice.

He wanted Stubler and Maas.

I know that .. you know that .. but just speaking to the point about "one of MOS biggest mistakes was his choice of assistants" .. 

[TBURGESS]

3 minutes ago, Mike said:

We already know they weren't his first choice.

He wanted Stubler and Maas.

And, he couldn't deliver either of them.