Miller starting contract extension talks with Walters O'Shea

[Noeller]

But it's pretty tough to tell when you start with a team that good. If anything, give DD credit for not taking a HC gig until it was the perfect one...

[voodoochylde]

27 minutes ago, J5V said:

Perhaps, but you have to wonder why. I think he's probably the real deal. 

A bad coach could take a great team and make it look like a train wreck. DD is a good coach who has benefited greatly from being in a tremendous situation.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

 

Having a great GM certainly helped Dickenson. Probably why it's bad to hire a rookie GM and a rookie HC (& CEO) at the same time. That's no excuse for O'Shea's mistakes. A better excuse is that his only previous coaching experience was 4 years as a STC where as Dickenson had 7 years of increasing responsibility (RBC, QBC, OC).

why do you keep ignoring the point that the very first season that MOS has had good depth he looks like a pretty damned good coach? Do you honestly believe that if Dickenson didn't inherit an already very good and very deep team that he still would have won as many games as he has? MOS with enough talent is a good coach, one of the best in the CFL this year, when he didn't have the required talent he didn't win a lot, but spoiler alert, when coaches don't have enough talent on their teams they don't win either. Did Scott Milanovich get stupid this year or does he just not have the talent anymore? 

 

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

20 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

why do you keep ignoring the point that the very first season that MOS has had good depth he looks like a pretty damned good coach? Do you honestly believe that if Dickenson didn't inherit an already very good and very deep team that he still would have won as many games as he has? MOS with enough talent is a good coach, one of the best in the CFL this year, when he didn't have the required talent he didn't win a lot, but spoiler alert, when coaches don't have enough talent on their teams they don't win either. Did Scott Milanovich get stupid this year or does he just not have the talent anymore? 

 

What happened to the term that was being thrown around....oh yeah..."Quarterback Whisperer"... Man, that had a nice ring to it.

[Guest J5V]

1 hour ago, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

What happened to the term that was being thrown around....oh yeah..."Quarterback Whisperer"... Man, that had a nice ring to it.

Speaking of Dickenson I'd of loved to see what he could have done with a guy like Willy. I agree with the assertion that he would have handled him better than O'Shea did. However, we all knew there was going to be a learning curve there for O'Shea and what's done is done. We've moved on and I hope Willy doesn't come back to haunt O'Shea one day.

 

2 hours ago, Noeller said:

But it's pretty tough to tell when you start with a team that good. If anything, give DD credit for not taking a HC gig until it was the perfect one...

Just for grins and giggles lets take the switch the other way ... would O'Shea be doing as well as DD is had he landed in Calgary instead of Winnipeg? Maybe he'd be 18-0.  

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, J5V said:

Hey, who wouldn't want 18-0 and Mr. Dickenson's team is damned close to it, aren't they?

O'Shea, to me, is like any other member of this football club right up to Wade Miller. If we can get better in here, do it. Is anyone better than O'Shea available? Not that I know of. Was anyone better available 3 years ago? Not that I know of. All I'm saying is that IF someone better was available, like a Dave Dickenson, I'd replace O'Shea with him in a heartbeat, not because I don't like O'Shea or think he's a bad coach, but because I can't ignore Dickenson's credentials. The only reason I'd extend O'Shea is because I don't see better available NOT because I'm so awed by what he has accomplished in his three years here.

That isn't the way things are done. You don't fire O'Shea as he got a playoff spot. You need to reward him. Not punish him.  Also, there's no guarantee that another coach would do better than Mike as he might do worse.

[Goalie]

Hypothetical. What if Calgary loses the Western Final and Or Grey Cup. Would it be a great season but all for not? 

[Mike]

12 hours ago, Goalie said:

Hypothetical. What if Calgary loses the Western Final and Or Grey Cup. Would it be a great season but all for not? 

Um .. yes

[TBURGESS]

19 hours ago, 17to85 said:

why do you keep ignoring the point that the very first season that MOS has had good depth he looks like a pretty damned good coach? Do you honestly believe that if Dickenson didn't inherit an already very good and very deep team that he still would have won as many games as he has? MOS with enough talent is a good coach, one of the best in the CFL this year, when he didn't have the required talent he didn't win a lot, but spoiler alert, when coaches don't have enough talent on their teams they don't win either. Did Scott Milanovich get stupid this year or does he just not have the talent anymore? 

I'm not ignoring your premise. I don't agree with it. MOS made a ton of errors in his first 2 years. Better talent would have netted more wins, but I don't think he got the most out of the talent he had or that he made the right decisions on players, coordinators or in-game. His learning curve was huge and rocky. DD's has been smaller and smooth.

No question that DD would have won less often with an inferior team, but that's not what we've been talking about. The theory being suggested is that he'd done as badly as O'Shea under the same circumstances. I've given a bunch of reasons why I don't buy it.

As for Milanovich... yup he got stupid this year. Chose Ray. Chose Willy. Chose to cut his top 3 receivers mid-season. Likely going to be fired.

Edited October 22, 2016 by TBURGESS
BLM to DD

[Mr Dee]

On 2016-10-21 at 9:39 AM, TBURGESS said:

So you want the assumption to be that Dickenson would have made all the same decisions as O'Shea did. He'd have the exact same roster. He'd stick with vets who weren't playing well too long. He'd start 8 NI's even tho he didn't have 8 viable NI starters. He'd keep the O line the same. He'd not try 3 INT's, He'd hire horrible coordinators. He wouldn't realize they were bad until way after the common fan did. He'd make excuses for players.  Yup... under the assumption that Dickenson wouldn't have made any different decisions he wouldn't make any difference, but that's not reasonable to assume.

Quote

I've given a bunch of reasons why I don't buy it.

OK, it looks like you're in the trolling mode now as you seem to assume Dickenson is this boy wonder who would have been a much better coach than O'Shea, with the same lineup, and under the same circumstances.

And your reasons were:

You bring up the roster - like Dickenson is the one who had all these connections to better players and would have made our roster, at the time, a better one. As if the players in Calgary you named came from Dickenson's player piggy bank.

Sticking with the vets who you say weren't playing too well. - Frankly I don't know what Dickenson would have done.

Starting 8 NI starters?  Probably, he wouldn't have.

The O-Line? Well, he'd have to deal with the same inadequacies that existed at the time, now wouldn't he? 3 Ints instead? If we had them and could play a Nat. somewhere else instead.

Hire different coordinators? - Why would you think different coordinators would come over for rookie HC Dickenson instead of O'Shea? Don't forget, at that time Dicky had less experience than he had this year...

He make excuses for players? That's your own personal beef and phrasing.

The bottom line is, you didn't give reasons why Dicky would have fared better, only that he would done things differently. And really, that's all you can say. That, in no way proves he's a better Coach. You know what? He very could be. But since the same circumstances cannot be duplicated, we can only surmise.

All that the rest of us are saying is - Coach Dickenson didn't step into the same void as Coach O'Shea, and there's no way to say any different.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Mr Dee

[WBBFanWest]

53 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

I'm not ignoring your premise. I don't agree with it. MOS made a ton of errors in his first 2 years. Better talent would have netted more wins, but I don't think he got the most out of the talent he had or that he made the right decisions on players, coordinators or in-game. His learning curve was huge and rocky. BLM's has been smaller and smooth.

No question that BLM would have won less often with an inferior team, but that's not what we've been talking about. The theory being suggested is that he'd done as badly as O'Shea under the same circumstances. I've given a bunch of reasons why I don't buy it.

As for Milanovich... yup he got stupid this year. Chose Ray. Chose Willy. Chose to cut his top 3 receivers mid-season. Likely going to be fired.

I'm pretty sure that if BLM was handed the HC job he'd probably point out two things:

1 - He's not a coach, so his learning curve hasn't even started yet.

2 - Even if he wanted to be HC, right now he's kinda busy being Calgary's starting QB

Dang, looks like you made a mistake.

[Jpan85]

If I am not mistaken the only person Dickenson brought in was Ryan Dinnwidde. Claybrooks was promoted from inside. 

 

[TBURGESS]

52 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

OK, it looks like you're in the trolling mode now as you seem to assume Dickenson is this boy wonder who would have been a much better coach than O'Shea, with the same lineup, and under the same circumstances.

And your reasons were:

You bring up the roster - like Dickenson is the one who had all these connections to better players and would have made our roster, at the time, a better one. As if the players in Calgary you named came from Dickenson's player piggy bank.

Sticking with the vets who you say weren't playing too well. - Frankly I don't know what Dickenson would have done.

Starting 8 NI starters?  Probably, he wouldn't have.

The O-Line? Well, he'd have to deal with the same inadequacies that existed at the time, now wouldn't he? 3 Ints instead? If we had them and could play a Nat. somewhere else instead.

Hire different coordinators? - Why would you think different coordinators would come over for rookie HC Dickenson instead of O'Shea? Don't forget, at that time Dicky had less experience than he had this year...

He make excuses for players? That's your own personal beef and phrasing.

The bottom line is, you didn't give reasons why Dicky would have fared better, only that he would done things differently. And really, that's all you can say. That, in no way proves he's a better Coach. You know what? He very could be. But since the same circumstances cannot be duplicated, we can only surmise.

All that the rest of us are saying is - Coach Dickenson didn't step into the same void as Coach O'Shea, and there's no way to say any different.

I bring up the roster and injuries because folks were saying that Dickenson was handed a championship team and didn't have any adversity. He was handed a very good team with a bunch of big time holes to fill. Was saddled with some big injuries and still managed more wins than any other rookie HC ever in the CFL, tied for the 2nd most wins ever and even got more wins than Huffer got last year.

Dickenson had a young MLB (Singleton) who was given enough playing time to push the vet MLB (Reed) out. Dickenson first started Singleton instead of Reed, then cut Reed. Sounds like a coach who doesn't stick with the vet too long.

O-Line. Dickenson's O line has been in a consistent state of flux both as an OC and a HC. He still gets them to provide great protection and create holes for the RB's even when he's had to start DL on the OL. It's in least in part due to the way he designs and runs his offence, so yah, I think he'd have figured a way to make our O line look better.

Doing things differently is exactly why I think that Dickenson would have done better. 

No one is suggesting that Dickenson stepped into as bad a situation as O'Shea did. They are suggesting that Dickenson wouldn't have done any better with the situation than O'Shea did. You call it trolling to suggest that Dickenson would have done better.

[TBURGESS]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

I'm pretty sure that if BLM was handed the HC job he'd probably point out two things:

1 - He's not a coach, so his learning curve hasn't even started yet.

2 - Even if he wanted to be HC, right now he's kinda busy being Calgary's starting QB

Dang, looks like you made a mistake.

Yup. I should have typed DD instead of BLM. Thanks for pointing it out. I fixed it in the original post.

[17to85]

I think you are talking gms responsibilities and giving credit or blame to the coaches... Why is that?

[Jacquie]

Delete

Edited October 22, 2016 by Jacquie

[Bigblue204]

On 21/10/2016 at 4:40 PM, TBURGESS said:

Because anyone can say they want two of the best available coordinators, even me, and that certainly doesn't make me HC material. Unless you can deliver them, it doesn't mean squat. O'Shea ultimately failed at bringing in good coordinators, not once, not twice, but all of them. His second go round was better but Hall was out of the CFL as a DC if we didn't hire him and PLAP was a year too late.

Handed a good team, but he had to replace a ton of talent... Jeff Fuller, Jon Cornish, Eric Rogers, Keon Raymond, Juwan Simpson and Rich Stubler just to name a few. As outlined before he's had to make a bunch of in season changes and he's kept on winning. That's facing and beating adversity.

I believe all the talent you mentioned were replaced with guys who were on the roster last year, with the exception of Singleton (who was thought be a great player in the making during the draft) and Daniels...DD didn't need to go find anyone... I stand by my point of no adversity.

[TBURGESS]

39 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

I believe all the talent you mentioned were replaced with guys who were on the roster last year, with the exception of Singleton (who was thought be a great player in the making during the draft) and Daniels...DD didn't need to go find anyone... I stand by my point of no adversity.

It's the GM's job to find talent, not DD's.

No adversity? 

Quote

... Jorden had what, three games in two years prior to this year?  Daniels had none.  Grant and West were six gamed.   Federkeil (6 game), Grozman (6 game), Erdos (6 game), Lavertu (6 game), Richards, Thorn (6 game), and Bergman have all missed significant time.  So effectively, the only constants on offense have been BLM, Messam, and McDaniel.  I don't care who you are, without fantastic coaching you don't set CFL season record and lock up first place overall with 5 games left with only three constants on offense.

Defense - Singleton, Campbell, Davis, and Evans  all had three starts or less prior to 2016. 

 

[Guest J5V]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

It's the GM's job to find talent, not DD's.

No adversity? 

Quote: I don't care who you are, without fantastic coaching you don't set CFL season record and lock up first place overall with 5 games left with only three constants on offense.

I think one of the points being made here is that it may not be DD but, in actuality, Hufnagel who is making the decisions. That is a huge advantage compared to what O'Shea has had to work with. I still think the biggest difference between DD and MOS are the resumes of each. DD was just much better prepared to be a HC than MOS was. Mike is better in year 3 than he was in year 1 and I think most realized he had a steep learning curve to climb and were willing to wait. Unfortunately I believe his stubbornness has hindered his ability to learn quickly and adapt. I also believe his cozy relationship with Kyle Walters has him feeling very secure.

The question for me is, is there anyone better available right now worthy of making a coaching change? The only name that comes to mind is Mark Trestman. But that's me and I don't get to make that determination. Wade Miller and Kyle Walters do and I sincerely doubt either has approached Trestman and I think that's a mistake.

[blitzmore]

40 minutes ago, J5V said:

I think one of the points being made here is that it may not be DD but, in actuality, Hufnagel who is making the decisions. That is a huge advantage compared to what O'Shea has had to work with. I still think the biggest difference between DD and MOS are the resumes of each. DD was just much better prepared to be a HC than MOS was. Mike is better in year 3 than he was in year 1 and I think most realized he had a steep learning curve to climb and were willing to wait. Unfortunately I believe his stubbornness has hindered his ability to learn quickly and adapt. I also believe his cozy relationship with Kyle Walters has him feeling very secure.

The question for me is, is there anyone better available right now worthy of making a coaching change? The only name that comes to mind is Mark Trestman. But that's me and I don't get to make that determination. Wade Miller and Kyle Walters do and I sincerely doubt either has approached Trestman and I think that's a mistake.

Some people just never happy...that's you and Tburg

[Guest J5V]

6 minutes ago, blitzmore said:

Some people just never happy...that's you and Tburg

I'm happy but having the best makes me happier. Some people don't want the best. That's you. I'd rather be me. 

[Taynted_Fayth]

 

[Guest J5V]

22 hours ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

 

LOL! 

[SpeedFlex27]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 9:09 PM, Goalie said:

Hypothetical. What if Calgary loses the Western Final and Or Grey Cup. Would it be a great season but all for not? 

I think that it would be thought of as a wasted season. Just like the undefeated Patriots losing to the Giants in the Super Bowl. I wonder if you talked to Tom Brady about that season, would he just refuse to talk about it?

Edited October 25, 2016 by SpeedFlex27

[SPuDS]

On 10/20/2016 at 9:01 PM, J5V said:

All things being equal, do you think a guy like Dickenson could help us convert in the red zone? O'Shea can't.                                                                                                                    -phones weird, can't quote.  Anyway do you think our defense would be as impressive as it is or our special teams so vastly improved and now now a force under Dickenson?  I don't.   You know what they say about defense winning championships.   Also,  win 2 outta 3 facets of the game and you normally win..