Will MOS's stubborness cost us in the long run

[Old Bomber Fan]

I have been reflecting back on last game and while I understand that the whole team did not play well it seemed to me that the QB, one position that can be "controlled" to a degree, is one that he has complete control over. If this is the case then with having a proven "starter" and more than capable back up in Glenn standing on the sidelines, why was it that MOS did not insert him into the game when it was obvious to everyone, except him, that Nichols was struggling mightily and needed be taken out for not only the teams sake but also for his confidence!

This is not the first time MOS has shown his stubbornness can cost us games; I need only refer to the start of the season and wonder how many games we may have won had he pulled Willy or started Nichols in his place. Then there are the DBs who supposedly won the starting jobs from training camp and were terrible in coverage only to be replaced when injuries dictated that was the case. Then we go on a 7 game winning streak with multiple games with at least 4 take aways per game or more. Slowly those originals have been inserted in the line up once again, save for Harris, and now we seem not to be able to cover a table!

My point is merely, a good coach needs to know when to pull players during games to stop the bleeding while at the same time give the player a breather and different view of the proceedings. To merely keep them in to "let them work it out" is not a function of good coaching. If the ability level of the team is supposed to be a close as they state, then substitutions should be made freely. That does several positives while keeping a non performer in the game does much damage.

The Bombers lost control of their own destiny for several reasons; the players were not and should have been ready to  play this important game; the game plan to stop the Ottawa offense was poor, the offensive game plan was poor and of course so was the execution, and ultimately the coaching staff did not prepare this team to the level it needed. And finally bad decisions on behalf of the head coach sealed the deal.

Now it is only one game but the consistent stubbornness of MOS in my mind will ultimately destroy any chances this team has of winning any play off games let alone get to the Grey Cup.

Curious to see others viewpoints on this.

[17to85]

Nichols has started poorly and worked his way out of it in so many games this season why pull the guy? All that does is make players afraid to make a mistake and play tentatively which leads to losses as well. 

What should have happened was they should have used the ground game more to take some pressure off the qb and let him work through it like he has so many other times. Hell he even worked through it in that game, just too late to matter. Switching qbs wouldn't have won the Bombers the game, too many players didn't play well enough. They got beat plain and simple and there is no one thing that cost them, especially not anything MOS did. 

[BomberBall]

7 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Nichols has started poorly and worked his way out of it in so many games this season why pull the guy? All that does is make players afraid to make a mistake and play tentatively which leads to losses as well. 

What should have happened was they should have used the ground game more to take some pressure off the qb and let him work through it like he has so many other times. Hell he even worked through it in that game, just too late to matter. Switching qbs wouldn't have won the Bombers the game, too many players didn't play well enough. They got beat plain and simple and there is no one thing that cost them, especially not anything MOS did. 

Agreed.

The only time I would have considered pulling him was when there was less than 7 minutes left, we were down by 3 TD's and he had been hit hard a couple of times.  My concern was we could lose our starting QB for the playoffs.

Let's hope he has a solid start on Friday.

Edited November 1, 2016 by BomberBall

[Nash00]

Offensive play calling was off all game. On the first drive, Harris rips his first carry off for 12 yards then we don't go back to him and end up throwing a red zone INT, but ran two goofy reverses/sweeps.

Seemed like any time we were moving the ball effectively, it was when Harris was involved on the drive consistently which was not nearly enough.

[Stickem]

15 minutes ago, BomberBall said:

Agreed.

The only time I would have considered pulling him was when there was less than 7 minutes left, we were down by 3 TD's and he had been hit hard a couple of times.  My concern was we could lose our starting QB for the playoffs.

Let's hope he has a solid start on Friday.

Regarding losing our starter......would have been enough reason to pull him alone, when it looked like everything went south..On one play where someone whiffed on a block, Nichols was sacked hard and his leg bent backwards...It looked as though he was gumby on that play and I suddenly got a flash of Glenn finishing the season for us...I also remember when Glenn was lost with a broken arm that some fans believe cost us a Cup...I think this game was long over before the last seven minutes AND if Nichols would have been out of action the rest of the season....wellll the assault on Mike O would have been as loud as IGF gets at it's highest decibels..Sometimes game management by this club looks amateurish.

[Rod Black]

We've lost three games in the last 12. This past one was not a good performance but there was also a pretty good quarterback on the other team. There is way more stuff that goes in preparation and during a game than to be able to pin a lose on "stubborness". Why is it when we lose, we have to cook up a single to reason blame it on? We sucked on Saturday. It happens.

 

Just answered my own question. It goes back ages. Seems we need scape goats.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Rod Black

[Fatty Liver]

56 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Nichols has started poorly and worked his way out of it in so many games this season why pull the guy? All that does is make players afraid to make a mistake and play tentatively which leads to losses as well. 

What should have happened was they should have used the ground game more to take some pressure off the qb and let him work through it like he has so many other times. Hell he even worked through it in that game, just too late to matter. Switching qbs wouldn't have won the Bombers the game, too many players didn't play well enough. They got beat plain and simple and there is no one thing that cost them, especially not anything MOS did. 

Great opportunity for Nichols to redeem himself this week, we'll see what he's got.  I have faith that he can self-correct given a week to think about what he did wrong last game, as he's a smart competitive QB.  Pressure is on him for the remainder of this season to audition for the #1 job next year.  I suspect there will be some interesting QB's available this off-season in F.A. and I'm betting Durant will be one of them.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Throw Long Bannatyne

[Tracker]

You don't have to go very far in the CFL, NFL, MLB etc to find instances where a starter was just not on his game that day and was pulled sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes for the whole game. The stubbornness of O'Shea has been an issue for some time and he looks to be very loathe to learn from his mistakes and I believe that sets a bad precedent and example for the team. 

And I am betting Durant will stay in Regina.

[17to85]

1 minute ago, tracker said:

You don't have to go very far in the CFL, NFL, MLB etc to find instances where a starter was just not on his game that day and was pulled sometimes for a few minutes, sometimes for the whole game. The stubbornness of O'Shea has been an issue for some time and he looks to be very loathe to learn from his mistakes and I believe that sets a bad precedent and example for the team. 

And I am betting Durant will stay in Regina.

how many qbs in the CFL get pulled that quickly though? The only places it happens are the gong shows where a desperate coach is fighting for his job trying to find that instantaneous spark to save his own ass temporarily. BLM plays alllll the snaps in Calgary, Jennings has to really be pooping the bed to come out in BC, does Reilly even have a backup in Edmotnon? Never see him. 

[Tracker]

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

how many qbs in the CFL get pulled that quickly though? The only places it happens are the gong shows where a desperate coach is fighting for his job trying to find that instantaneous spark to save his own ass temporarily. BLM plays alllll the snaps in Calgary, Jennings has to really be pooping the bed to come out in BC, does Reilly even have a backup in Edmonton? Never see him. 

I've seen the best coaches pull a player when it becomes obvious that he is really struggling. I do not think that it is necessary to wait out whole damned game for a miracle. Did anyone think that the team and Nichols in particular were going to come storming back after the first half's putrid performance?

[bearpants]

I think the real question is...

Does a blowout loss this week cost Mike O'Shea his job??

[17to85]

12 minutes ago, tracker said:

I've seen the best coaches pull a player when it becomes obvious that he is really struggling. I do not think that it is necessary to wait out whole damned game for a miracle. Did anyone think that the team and Nichols in particular were going to come storming back after the first half's putrid performance?

They've done it before this year, multiple times.....

[Goalie]

It was 17 3 at half. That's not some OMG the game is over throw in the towel score. 

[Taynted_Fayth]

I listened to Oshea on CJOB last night, I dont think "tanking" is the plan, but honestly I'd like to see Davis get a lot of rep this game, as well as get glenn some reps.  I'd probably do Nichols 1 quarter, Davis 2, Glenn 1 then prepare for Hamilton 

[Noeller]

31 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

They've done it before this year, multiple times.....

I was actually applauding when MOS laughed at Scianetti for suggesting a QB change. Dunigan tried to defend Scianetti, but it was ridiculous. We weren't down by that much, and Nichols has a history of starting slow and then pulling it outta the fire...

[Doublezero]

Where was the 'MOS is too loyal or stubborn and shoulda pulled the QB' thread when Drew Willy was QB?

By this logic, I would set the number of games Willy should have been replaced at about 20 or 25 games.

That is stubbornness or something beyond stubbornness for you.

Nichols has one lousy game and he should be yanked. Get real.

[Tracker]

59 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

They've done it before this year, multiple times.....

But has Nichols looked as bad in any of the previous games this year as he did last game? I think not.

[bearpants]

3 hours ago, Old Bomber Fan said:

If this is the case then with having a proven "starter" and more than capable back up in Glenn standing on the sidelines, why was it that MOS did not insert him into the game when it was obvious to everyone, except him, that Nichols was struggling mightily and needed be taken out for not only the teams sake but also for his confidence!

this is the statement where you lose all credibility and I stop reading... do you honestly believe there is EVER a situation in a football game that is "obvious to everyone except (the head coach)".... 

[LeBird]

Unfortunately I appear to be one of the few who remember what happened in the past  when we kept  changing Coaches. We are in the playoffs and no matter what happens this week we still are in the playoffs. Obviously we could have done better. Calgary is good because it has mostly experienced vets on the team. We have more than our share of rookies and raw players. Some days we shoot a cool 65 the next we go south with a  85.

In his first two years I was not a fan of MOS but with Walters he tweaked a crappy  team and made it into what Shultz thinks could do it all. We might go one and out but at least the team will have felt the experience of the playoffs.  Think about this. It would have been easy to replace the QB in the Calgary  game. He kept things as were and gave them the scare of their life. How many coaches in the CFL would have done better with this team?

 

 

[bearpants]

18 minutes ago, LeBird said:

How many coaches in the CFL would have done better with this team?

 

uh oh... we don't want to get into this hypothetical debate again! 

[Guest J5V]

To me the topic is irrelevant. Mike O'Shea, like any other coach in the league, has his good points and bad. No one is perfect. But unless there is a clear choice for head coach available there is little point discussing this. The same goes for Lapo, Hall, and the players. It is Kyle Walters' job to upgrade the talent in this organization. He has done so and I have no reason to believe he won't continue to do exactly that with players and coaches but I believe he thinks Mike O'Shea is as good as any head coach in this league and won't be replacing him any time soon. 

[HardCoreBlue]

4 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Nichols has started poorly and worked his way out of it in so many games this season why pull the guy? All that does is make players afraid to make a mistake and play tentatively which leads to losses as well. 

What should have happened was they should have used the ground game more to take some pressure off the qb and let him work through it like he has so many other times. Hell he even worked through it in that game, just too late to matter. Switching qbs wouldn't have won the Bombers the game, too many players didn't play well enough. They got beat plain and simple and there is no one thing that cost them, especially not anything MOS did. 

No, not the mentally tough ones it shouldn't. Moreover, MOS doesn't seem to have a history of pulling QB's so if he did it this time, why would Nichols be 'afraid' and play tentatively next game?  There's no trend. We employ two QB's for a variety of reasons, not just in case the first one goes down.   

Why pull Nichols last game? Not because MOS has lost confidence, not because he'll do this anytime Nichols shows any signs of struggling, but because A), maybe showing the D a different look would have helped and it's time to get your 2nd stringer some game time to prepare for playoffs in case we need to go to our depth for whatever reason presents itself.

If our starters are that mentally sensitive that pulling them the odd time automatically means 'you have no confidence in me', then, like I said before, we have a much bigger issue.

[Guest J5V]

9 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

No, not the mentally tough ones it shouldn't. Moreover, MOS doesn't seem to have a history of pulling QB's so if he did it this time, why would Nichols be 'afraid' and play tentatively next game?  There's no trend. We employ two QB's for a variety of reasons, not just in case the first one goes down.   

Why pull Nichols last game? Not because MOS has lost confidence, not because he'll do this anytime Nichols shows any signs of struggling, but because A), maybe showing the D a different look would have helped and it's time to get your 2nd stringer some game time to prepare for playoffs in case we need to go to our depth for whatever reason presents itself.

If our starters are that mentally sensitive that pulling them the odd time automatically means 'you have no confidence in me', then, like I said before, we have a much bigger issue.

Very well said. What separates a pro from an amateur is consistency. Nichols needs to play well from start to finish and if he can't, he should expect to be pulled, not feel entitled to take the whole game to get his act together. O'Shea isn't doing Nichols any favours by leaving him in all game hoping he can work it out. It's really a disservice to the backup(s), the team, and the fans. If Davis and/or Glenn also play poorly O'Shea can always reinsert Nichols hoping he has got his act together after some time off. 

[Tracker]

53 minutes ago, J5V said:

Very well said. What separates a pro from an amateur is consistency. Nichols needs to play well from start to finish and if he can't, he should expect to be pulled, not feel entitled to take the whole game to get his act together. O'Shea isn't doing Nichols any favours by leaving him in all game hoping he can work it out. It's really a disservice to the backup(s), the team, and the fans. If Davis and/or Glenn also play poorly O'Shea can always reinsert Nichols hoping he has got his act together after some time off. 

Yup. I cannot see how leaving Nichols in while failing series after series would do anything for his confidence. Better to get him over to the sidelines to get him watching and then plug him in if he can see what is going on. If that doesn't work, spell him off- it wouldn't have been a new experience for him.

[17to85]

3 hours ago, tracker said:

But has Nichols looked as bad in any of the previous games this year as he did last game? I think not.

yeah he has, he was just lucky before that dbs didn't grab the picks, but Nichols has had some stinkers to start games before. It was 17-3 at the half, hardly the time to be pulling a qb, especially when you know that your D generally makes good adjustments as the game goes on.