US Politics

[kelownabomberfan]

I didn't think I said that Hillary would have been worse.  I'm just trying to point out that we're all looking at the US through our Canadian sensibilities, and a lot of what we are seeing doesn't make sense.  I can't imagine living in a country that wouldn't welcome two Iranian academics with open arms to an academic conference.  And I don't think most Americans want that either.  But for every person that the media shows in the US as angry etc., there is a person who is happy that Trump is doing what he said he was going to do.  And while I agree that these people aren't as vocal and so on the surface the US wouldn't seem as fractured under Hillary, we have to admit that there is a large fracturing going on.  It's just with the anti-Trump that fracturing is out there for all to see.  With the silent Trump supporters, it's a much more quiet anger.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.  Either candidate at this point would have a low presidential approval rating.  It's unavoidable when the country is split right down the middle.

[kelownabomberfan]

40 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

.  This "yeah but Hilary would have been worse" is such deflective nonsense. 

Please stop with these kinds of comments.  They do no good to anyone, and only engender more bickering that does no good, and just shuts down discussion.  I think I've managed to cut these kinds of comments out (if not, please let me know) and I think we all deserve respectful responses here.

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, HardCoreBlue said:

But what's the point in saying it? It sounds a bit like what I've posted before when people use the 'but that person is/would be just as worse' argument. It serves no purpose.

The point I was trying to make is that while some are pointing at Trump's low approval rating, I honestly don't think either candidate would have a high approval rating at this point in their presidency, due to the palpable anger on both sides of the spectrum.  That's all I was trying to say.  For every Trump hater in the US, there's a Trump lover, and so we as foreigners have to come to grips with that reality.

Edited January 31, 2017 by kelownabomberfan

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, kelownabomberfan said:

I didn't think I said that Hillary would have been worse.  I'm just trying to point out that we're all looking at the US through our Canadian sensibilities, and a lot of what we are seeing doesn't make sense.  I can't imagine living in a country that wouldn't welcome two Iranian academics with open arms to an academic conference.  And I don't think most Americans want that either.  But for every person that the media shows in the US as angry etc., there is a person who is happy that Trump is doing what he said he was going to do.  And while I agree that these people aren't as vocal and so on the surface the US wouldn't seem as fractured under Hillary, we have to admit that there is a large fracturing going on.  It's just with the anti-Trump that fracturing is out there for all to see.  With the silent Trump supporters, it's a much more quiet anger.

Anyway, that's just my two cents.  Either candidate at this point would have a low presidential approval rating.  It's unavoidable when the country is split right down the middle.

I definitely agree to a point.  A co-worker walked in yesterday (and this Trump craziness was all the talk at work) and he said "its crazy.  I mean, I agree with it, but its crazy".  I think the majority dont think deeply.  Ask those who support the ban and I bet most answers are something like "we need to protect ourselves" or "better to be safe than sorry".  And that shows a lack of understanding.  But that's the lowest common denominator that Trump appeals to.

I mean, we have seen protests against this that turned violent with the Anti Trump people attacking the Trump supporters.  Hard to rationalize violence when protesting this ban.  But the psychology of mob mentality is another subject.

I read through tweets from an American Christian who was taking flak for her unabashed support of Trump and the ban.  Her defense was to point out all the charity work she has done in Africa and her opposition is to Islam.  Again, a failure to understand this issue in my opinion.

But I do think if somehow Trump was removed, there would be a shocking backlash from what you described as the angry silent Trump supporters.  Which is really what the bigots, racists and white nationalists want - a fight.

[kelownabomberfan]

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

  Which is really what the bigots, racists and white nationalists want - a fight.

I'm not sure about that.  For eight years they could have stirred up violence with Obama as president and there was very little of that, other than the odd stand-off with the FBI in places like Oregon.  I am not sure what the bigots and racists want, other than to just be left alone I guess.  Which is no excuse for their behavior, that's for sure.

[The Unknown Poster]

4 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Please stop with these kinds of comments.  They do no good to anyone, and only engender more bickering that does no good, and just shuts down discussion.  I think I've managed to cut these kinds of comments out (if not, please let me know) and I think we all deserve respectful responses here.

It's true.  If we're discussing the actions of the President and the response is "yeah but Hilary", its a moot point.  its silly.  What Hilary might have done as President is irrelevant to what Trump is doing as President.  And if we really want to discuss it there is nothing in the history of Hilary as a Public Servant or her husband to suggest anything as divisive as Trump's first week.  Bill was impeached for lying about nailing his side chick.   Seems quaint right away now.

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, kelownabomberfan said:

I'm not sure about that.  For eight years they could have stirred up violence with Obama as president and there was very little of that, other than the odd stand-off with the FBI in places like Oregon.  I am not sure what the bigots and racists want, other than to just be left alone I guess.  Which is no excuse for their behavior, that's for sure.

Well sure there is a segment that wants to live on their ramshackle ranches with their stockpile of beans and guns waiting for the end times.  But I think the bigots that are active in their spreading of their nonsense want a race war.  Perhaps a minority, but a potentially awful one.  One can argue that the people most happy with the Muslim ban are bigots and radical Islam because it serves the same desire for hatred and war.

[kelownabomberfan]

4 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

  One can argue that the people most happy with the Muslim ban are bigots and radical Islam because it serves the same desire for hatred and war.

Yup, hard to argue that people in favor of the current ban aren't at least somewhat racist, that's for sure.  Or just plain not educated as to the world.  They really could benefit from leaving their homes in the US and traveling outside the borders.  A friend of mine is from the UK and he does business in Texas.  When he showed the secretary at an oil company his driver's licence she actually said "The UK?  What state is that?"  There's people who would be considered bigot and racists in the US, but they don't even know they are bigots and racists, because they can't be bothered to learn why different is a good thing.

[kelownabomberfan]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/01/31/donald-trump-refugees/97284688/?csp=breakingnews

[Tracker]

What probably doomed Hillary was the revelation that the party bosses conspired to undermine Bernie Sanders even though every poll showed him to be more popular than Ms. Clinton and way more popular than Trump. There is a staggering amount of cynicism in America about the real influence of ordinary voters and these same angry, disenfranchised voters elected the rabid Trump out frustration. The prevailing thinking was, "what the hell. burn it all down" but I do not think that many thought it all the way through. They played right into the hands of the fascists and fundamentalist "Christians". The only way that the Dems can bring back trust into their party would be to bring in a firebrand outspoken leader like Elizabeth Warren. Bernie Sanders is cut from the same cloth but is too old to have the energy to reshape the American political scene.

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, tracker said:

What probably doomed Hillary was the revelation that the party bosses conspired to undermine Bernie Sanders even though every poll showed him to be more popular than Ms. Clinton and way more popular than Trump. There is a staggering amount of cynicism in America about the real influence of ordinary voters and these same angry, disenfranchised voters elected the rabid Trump out frustration. The prevailing thinking was, "what the hell. burn it all down" but I do not think that many thought it all the way through. They played right into the hands of the fascists and fundamentalist "Christians". The only way that the Dems can bring back trust into their party would be to bring in a firebrand outspoken leader like Elizabeth Warren. Bernie Sanders is cut from the same cloth but is too old to have the energy to reshape the American political scene.

It might not have been the most inspired campaign and was surely hampered by her illness.  But she won the debates and had nearly 3 million more people vote for her.  Even Trump's people were conceding prior to the FBI's big assist.  I think some people voted for Trump to be apart of history assuming he'd lose.  But not enough to make a huge difference.  Hilary couldnt get the women the way Obama got the black vote.  Women dont like women to a surprising degree.  Women made the difference if I recall.  But hold the election today and what happens?  Likely a close-to-historic victory for Hilary.

[The Unknown Poster]

This is hilarious 

 

[do or die]

Right now, the key concept, when over viewing the US political scene, seems to be just..... a whole lot of anger.

Angry Trump voters....disenchanted with both the Democrats as well as the Republican mainstream.  Mistrustful and frustrated about the economy, jobs etc - viewing "big government", immigrants, liberals and media as the enemy... or in this particular campaign....the "Politics as usual"

Angry non-Trump voters......watching the first week of Trump's egomania, narcissism, xenophobia, petulance, serial lying and knee jerking, ham handed actions... 

The US is Just not a happy place....sane discourse on just about any issues seems well nigh impossible, at this stage.   Total hothouse.

[kelownabomberfan]

6 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

 But hold the election today and what happens?  Likely a close-to-historic victory for Hilary.

You watch too many celebrities (just kidding!).  The actual polls when you cut through the noise and the shouting and the protests and the anger, show Trump's ban is popular!
 

Quote

 

Fifty-seven percent said they favor a temporary halt on refugees from the seven listed countries in the new poll issued Monday.

Thirty-three percent opposed such actions, while another 10 percent remain undecided.

Monday’s results also showed that more half of the respondents support a short-term pause on issuing visas to residents of the seven countries.

Fifty-six percent back such a temporary ban until the government improves its ability to screen for likely terrorists, Rasmussen said. Thirty-two percent oppose the measure, while 11 percent remain undecided.

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/316914-poll-over-half-back-trumps-refugee-ban

Now I realize that this poll was conducted by a right-wing firm, so its probably not very reliable.  Just offering it as a talking point.

Edited February 1, 2017 by kelownabomberfan

[kelownabomberfan]

6 hours ago, tracker said:

The only way that the Dems can bring back trust into their party would be to bring in a firebrand outspoken leader like Elizabeth Warren. Bernie Sanders is cut from the same cloth but is too old to have the energy to reshape the American political scene.

Not sure Elizabeth Warren is the answer either...

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[johnzo]

Nice summary, DoD.

[do or die]

Believe me.....not as easy as it looks.....

[Tracker]

I would like to address the violent behaviour of some who appeared at the anti-Trump gatherings. There are those among who will seize on any gathering to break things and hurt people but who have no committment to whatever cause is being promoted. These are criminals, plain and simple who usually get liquored up, don masks and use the anonymity of the crowd to commit crimes. It has also been credibly reported that those opposed to the gathering will send agitators into that crowd to foment violence and thus discredit the cause. Police has been known to do this as well. 

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, tracker said:

I would like to address the violent behaviour of some who appeared at the anti-Trump gatherings. There are those among who will seize on any gathering to break things and hurt people but who have no committment to whatever cause is being promoted. These are criminals, plain and simple who usually get liquored up, don masks and use the anonymity of the crowd to commit crimes. It has also been credibly reported that those opposed to the gathering will send agitators into that crowd to foment violence and thus discredit the cause. Police has been known to do this as well. 

Both sides have violent protestors.  Should not be condoned but has no relevance to the underlying protest.

[Tracker]

17 hours ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Not sure Elizabeth Warren is the answer either...

Ms. Warren is outspoken, apart from the establishment, has taken the Democratic party to task for its stupidity, well-spoken,  intelligent and consistent. Whats not to like?

[Jacquie]

Wow... just wow!

 

[kelownabomberfan]

4 hours ago, tracker said:

Ms. Warren is outspoken, apart from the establishment, has taken the Democratic party to task for its stupidity, well-spoken,  intelligent and consistent. Whats not to like?

I have to admit I don't know much about her, which is why I said I wasn't sure she was the answer.  If she is as good as you say I hope she runs for president in 2020 and the American people give her a fair shake.  At least she won't have to worry about the Clintons destroying her campaign.

[Jacquie]

It seems there are some questions as to whether Trump and Spicer know who Frederick Douglass was or the fact that he's been dead for over a century. From Trump's speech:

Quote

Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who has done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice. Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks and millions more black Americans who made America what it is today. A big impact.

And more anti-Muslim rhetoric:

Even though white nationalist extremists have killed far more Americans in the US than Islamic extremists since 9/11.

 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Jacquie

[IC Khari]

I miss these simple days ...