SpeedFlex27 Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 47 minutes ago, do or die said: Cynic. When they employ someone like Hannity I sure am.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 8 hours ago, wanna-b-fanboy said: ah sweet trolly-troll. thanks for interjecting here, otherwise it's be an echo chamber of high-fives. I am genuinely interested in your metrics for "winning" this issue. What are they? Polls consistently show a majority of Americans in general and NFL fans in particular support Trumps position on kneeling during the national anthem.
Wanna-B-Fanboy Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 46 minutes ago, Zontar said: Polls consistently show a majority of Americans in general and NFL fans in particular support Trumps position on kneeling during the national anthem. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-do-americans-feel-about-the-nfl-protests-it-depends-on-how-you-ask/
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 30 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-do-americans-feel-about-the-nfl-protests-it-depends-on-how-you-ask/ But the President s position was never as nuanced. Its been pretty clear and the majority agrees with it: its inappropriate and disrespectful to kneel. Which explains why he continues to double down and win on this.
Wanna-B-Fanboy Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Zontar said: But the President s position was never as nuanced. Its been pretty clear and the majority agrees with it: its inappropriate and disrespectful to kneel. Which explains why he continues to double down and win on this. The Unknown Poster and Mark F 2
Mark F Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) Obama's "far left" base. How warped the definition of "left" has become thanks to years of propagandizing by the likes of Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Fox news. we have our equivalents of those. What drives Trump? Quote As owner of the New Jersey Generals USFL team in the 1980s, Trump was a driving force behind an antitrust lawsuit against the NFL that was successful but won only $3.76 in damages, effectively putting an end to the upstart league. Trump hailed the verdict as a “great moral victory,” and the USFL launched a series of motions and appeals that culminated in 1990. But on the playing field, the 1986 USFL was postponed just days after the trial concluded, and the USFL never staged another game. Donald Trump was not a plaintiff in the USFL lawsuit in a personal capacity, but the team he owned, the New Jersey Generals, was one of the plaintiffs. Moreover, Trump’s long-time personal lawyer, Roy Cohn, was one of the attorneys for the USFL, and both Trump and Cohn gave press conferences and interviews about the case, criticizing the NFL and supporting the USFL’s arguments. And Trump himself testified during the trial. So much winning. (Snopes) Edited June 6, 2018 by Mark F cause I want to
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Mark F said: Obama's "far left" base. If one's notion of an ideal society, which many on the left do, is Communist Cuba, "far left" is accurate by any measure.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 I can only assume Jenkins is equally frustrated with the kneelers and their apologists around the league for their tactics over shadowing and robbing attention of the outtreach work he described.
blue_gold_84 Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 11 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said: The authority on patriotism. Maybe those pesky bone spurs were acting up.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 10 hours ago, Zontar said: So when Obama played to his far left base and cheerfully reopened diplomatic ties with communist Cuba , a police state who murdered and jailed thousands of opponents forced thousands more out the country put homosexuals in prison camps, plotted and participated in the overthrow of countries around the world, deliberately smiling in front of a mural of a murderous Che Guevara and said nothing of human rights abuses.... You thought what, as a "conservative" ? I thought it was fine. Of course being Canadian, our relationship had always been better with Cuba than the US. And there was a change in leadership in Cuba before Obama considered it (encouraged by the Pope which should make the right wing evangelicals happy and other Nations, such as Canada). By the way, the vast majority of American's agreed so was Obama playing to his base or doing what was in the interests of Americans? This is what I meant before, if you think a politician ONLY plays to the most vocal part of his base and never does what he thinks is best for the people and nation, what's the point? And the reason you would say that is its a whataboutism defense to Trump's playing to the racist part of his base. And if you're a devout Trump supporter, you can't really cheer him on to the Nobel peace prize for playing footsie with North Korea and then be mad at Obama for Cuba. Its sort of a non-starter. Many examples of the US (and other nations) doing business with bad act countries in an effort to improve things there.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Zontar said: But the President s position was never as nuanced. Its been pretty clear and the majority agrees with it: its inappropriate and disrespectful to kneel. Which explains why he continues to double down and win on this. The Presidents position is completely different than the position of the player's kneeling. This is very clear in his statement about the Eagles. He made it about support of the military and patriotism when it was never about that. Anyone getting that upset over players kneeling really miss the point. When you hear the US National Anthem are you moved to tears? Like...what is so important about that song that someone kneeling or remaining in the locker room is a travesty? Edited June 6, 2018 by The Unknown Poster
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: I thought it was fine No surprise, that.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 39 minutes ago, Zontar said: If one's notion of an ideal society, which many on the left do, is Communist Cuba, "far left" is accurate by any measure. This is absurd. There is a lot of middle ground between alt right white nationalism and Communist left. Obama didnt run on a communist platform. And again, this is a whataboutism deflection "if you think Trump is bad, at least it's not Cuba". What does that have to do with Trump's racist rhetoric and divisive agenda, his lies, insults etc? Nothing at all. You still never answered whether you condemned Roseanne's remarks and if you thought Trump should have. You never provided the list of others who made racist remarks and weren't fired... if you're entire defense of Trump is "yeah but what about...." its pretty shallow.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Zontar said: No surprise, that. Exactly. Cause Im not an alt right white nationalist "Conservative". Being left of Trump is not left of center. I thought about visiting Cuba and the thaw in US relations made me think the place would be over-run with American tourists so I thought that would suck. But since it bothered you so much I can only assume you're irate at Trump's meeting with North Korea... EDIT: Also Trump did keep some of the Obama initiative diplomatic relations etc. He made it tougher for tourists to visit Cuba which I guess sure shows them. Edited June 6, 2018 by The Unknown Poster
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 34 minutes ago, Zontar said: I can only assume Jenkins is equally frustrated with the kneelers and their apologists around the league for their tactics over shadowing and robbing attention of the outtreach work he described. I assume you're equally as angry at Trump for twisting the reality of the situation and thus, over shadowing the great work? Not to mention robbing the Eagles fans who were going to the White House to meet the one player who planned on attending.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 7 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: Anyone getting that upset over players kneeling really miss the point. Kneelers miss the point in not realizing people take offense to the national anthem being used as a prop when there are other ways to bring attention to their cause. "USA is racist etc so your patriotism is wrong and thus makes you complicit for participating" is a very old tactic by the Left. It never works. A wonder why theyre trying it again. All it does is reinforce the image of being ungrateful at best, seditious at worst.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 12 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: This is absurd. There is a lot of middle ground between alt right white nationalism and Communist left. Obama didnt run on a communist platform. And again, this is a whataboutism deflection "if you think Trump is bad, at least it's not Cuba". What does that have to do with Trump's racist rhetoric and divisive agenda, his lies, insults etc? Nothing at all. You still never answered whether you condemned Roseanne's remarks and if you thought Trump should have. You never provided the list of others who made racist remarks and weren't fired... if you're entire defense of Trump is "yeah but what about...." its pretty shallow. No deflection . You introduced the comparison of what other presidents do. Obama placating the worst of his leftist base by celebrating Cuba as you condemn Trump for placating the extreme among his own base.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 1 minute ago, Zontar said: Kneelers miss the point in not realizing people take offense to the national anthem being used as a prop when there are other ways to bring attention to their cause. "USA is racist etc so your patriotism is wrong and thus makes you complicit for participating" is a very old tactic by the Left. It never works. A wonder why theyre trying it again. All it does is reinforce the image of being ungrateful at best, seditious at worst. You're pushing the narrative of the ungrateful blacks who should shut up and play ball. Peaceful assembly is right there in the Constitution. Kneeling is about the most peaceful protest there is. My goodness. They aren't the very fine people that hold militant nazi marches but I suppose kneeling is bothersome. The anthem is not just for white people or rich people or Trump. Its for all Americans. Why do you care so much if a player kneels, because Trump tells you it means they hate America? Its so not true. The post earlier in this thread shows how untrue that is. You ignore the position of many others, including war veterans who said whether they agree or not, they fought for the freedom to choose. I remind you Trump missed his military service with a sore foot, and he's lecturing American's on Anthem protocol?? He couldn't be bothered to review the words to God Bless America before trying to sing it...
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 13 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: I assume you're equally as angry at Trump for twisting the reality of the situation and thus, over shadowing the great work? Not to mention robbing the Eagles fans who were going to the White House to meet the one player who planned on attending. Fans are still invited no? Seems most of the anger is over the fact the Eagles were deprived of their stunt thinking the White House wouldnt dare cancel.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, Zontar said: No deflection . You introduced the comparison of what other presidents do. Obama placating the worst of his leftist base by celebrating Cuba as you condemn Trump for placating the extreme among his own base. In my response I clearly made the point that Obama was NOT placating the worst of his leftist base unless you acknowledge that the MAJORITY of Americans fall into a far left base. Did you know nearly half of Republican voters supported Obama's efforts with Cuba? Are they the "worst of the leftist base" too?
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 Just now, Zontar said: Fans are still invited no? Seems most of the anger is over the fact the Eagles were deprived of their stunt thinking the White House wouldnt dare cancel. Holy cow man...what STUNT? I know you think the ungrateful black players should bow their heads and shut up and get in line when the rich white guy demands it but they had NO obligation to attend. Not going has been a thing for years under other President's too. And you know what, when the President is a racist, why on earth would the predominantly black team WANT to go? For that matter, why would any of them? The only stunt was from trump trying to twist the issue into a false narrative about patriotism which is never was and still isnt. That's not opinion, its fact.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 5 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: You're pushing the narrative of the ungrateful blacks who should shut up and play ball. Peaceful assembly is right there in the Constitution. Kneeling is about the most peaceful protest there is. My goodness. They aren't the very fine people that hold militant nazi marches but I suppose kneeling is bothersome. The anthem is not just for white people or rich people or Trump. Its for all Americans. Why do you care so much if a player kneels, because Trump tells you it means they hate America? Its so not true. The post earlier in this thread shows how untrue that is. You ignore the position of many others, including war veterans who said whether they agree or not, they fought for the freedom to choose. I remind you Trump missed his military service with a sore foot, and he's lecturing American's on Anthem protocol?? He couldn't be bothered to review the words to God Bless America before trying to sing it... As I said anti patriotism is an old tactic used not just in racial issues. And again it reinforces the notion of unngratefullness and resentment at the attempt to,be made to feel guilty over love of country, culture etc.
The Unknown Poster Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 Just now, Zontar said: As I said anti patriotism is an old tactic used not just in racial issues. And again it reinforces the notion of unngratefullness and resentment at the attempt to,be made to feel guilty over love of country, culture etc. That's a nice message. But it has nothing to do with NFL players kneeling. Thats not why they kneel. You can talk about patriotism all day long, but its like saying the very fine nazis were marching in support of a higher quality of sweater vest. Its just not true. Fake news.
Zontar Posted June 6, 2018 Report Posted June 6, 2018 6 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said: Holy cow man...what STUNT? I know you think the ungrateful black players should bow their heads and shut up and get in line when the rich white guy demands it but they had NO obligation to attend. Not going has been a thing for years under other President's too. And you know what, when the President is a racist, why on earth would the predominantly black team WANT to go? For that matter, why would any of them? The only stunt was from trump trying to twist the issue into a false narrative about patriotism which is never was and still isnt. That's not opinion, its fact. Stunt would be to confirm a full list of attendees. Mysteriously cancel at last minute. Trump stands on empty stage. Kneelers, liberals, etc rejoice as Trump is rebuked.
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