RethinkIng Paul Maurice....

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, JCon said:

I don't know why you wouldn't include Morrissey in that list. Trouba/Morrissey are a top-pairing. If we keep Trouba, we've got the nucleus of something special.

Helle will be fine as soon as a has a competent 1b behind him.

Not convinced about Hellebuyck. I remember Marc Behrend. He was supposed to be the first great American goalie for the Jets 1.0 & he fizzled out in the 80's. Now we've got The Next One in Connor Hellebuyck. As I said before, I've never seen anything from Helle that shows me he has the potential to be the quality starting goalie long term that a couple of you guys keep saying he is. He doesn't need a quality backup behind him. He needs to be the backup or belongs in the AHL. We need to do something at that position. Fast.

Marc Behrend

Edited March 16, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[Judd]

24 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Not convinced about Hellebuyck. I remember Marc Behrend. He was supposed to be the first great American goalie for the Jets 1.0 & he fizzled out in the 80's. Now we've got The Next One in Connor Hellebuyck. As I said before, I've never seen anything from Helle that shows me he has the potential to be the quality starting goalie long term that a couple of you guys keep saying he is. He doesn't need a quality backup behind him. He needs to be the backup or belongs in the AHL. We need to do something at that position. Fast.

Marc Behrend

That's just myopic. 

Not even his franchise record 175 minute home shut out streak?

He started off the season with a 1.92 GAA and a .937 over 10 home games. Yes, that is somewhat cherry picked stats, but it shows that he's not chopped liver. Now I'm not proclaiming him some saviour, but he is actually following the development curve almost exactly. He needs a to be a part of a 1A, 1B until he can prove he can play night in, night out, but that is not his fault.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Judd

[Floyd]

Worried about Helle because of Mark Behrend.....  now THAT's going off the deep end.

If the Jets had one ounce of discipline, Helle would be tied for franchise shutout record with ten games to go...

Even in a season where he totally falls apart with no D support... he's still at .907, 2.88 avg - tied with Pav's career numbers

[Jimmy Pop]

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Not convinced about Hellebuyck. I remember Marc Behrend. He was supposed to be the first great American goalie for the Jets 1.0 & he fizzled out in the 80's. Now we've got The Next One in Connor Hellebuyck. As I said before, I've never seen anything from Helle that shows me he has the potential to be the quality starting goalie long term that a couple of you guys keep saying he is. He doesn't need a quality backup behind him. He needs to be the backup or belongs in the AHL. We need to do something at that position. Fast.

You're looking in the wrong places then.  If you're looking for proof that Helle's a surefire starter and elite goalie for the next 15 yrs, you ain't going to find what you're looking for. 

What a couple of us have been saying is that he's succeeded at every level he's been at, and because of that, he deserves more than 1.5 seasons to show his worth.  He's a goalie who's 23 for pete's sake.  

Because you found 1 example of a highly touted prospect who didn't turn out, here's better, more recent comparables to chew on:

Jonathan Quick's first 2 seasons - .914 & .907

Carey Price - .920 & .905

Pekka Rinne - .917 & .911

Freddy Anderson - .923 & .914

Sergei Bobrovsky - .915 & .898

Martin Jones - .934 & .906

Corey Crawford - .917 & .903

Connor Hellebuyck - .918 & .907

Seems to me Hellebuyck is to date pretty well in line with current legit #1's and the start to their careers.  .910 isn't good enough, no.  But it's miles better than Pavelec.

I have no idea whether he pans out or not.  If he does pan out, will it even be here? I'm not an expert by any means, but throwing a guy to the curb at 23 because he's been one of SEVERAL inconsistent Jets this year seems wildly irresponsible. 

Lastly - I think his style throws some people off.  He's a self-described "big & boring" goalie.  Looking for highlight reel saves where goalie is forced to recover because he was out of position - wait until Pavs signs in the A or the K next season. 

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Hellebuyck near top of league in shutouts. That's great.

Hellebuyck near top of league in being pulled. That's not so great.

It is what it is #Jets2016-17

 

[Floyd]

I feel like Hustler is really the only member of the media questioning coaching on the Jets...

Lawless blaming goalies today, Wiecek blaming youth.... blah blah blah

And hey we're only ten points behind the St Louis Blues...

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

53 minutes ago, Floyd said:

And hey we're only ten points behind the St Louis Blues...

Exactly just have to win 12 in a row and we're in.

[SpeedFlex27]

2 hours ago, Jimmy Pop said:

You're looking in the wrong places then.  If you're looking for proof that Helle's a surefire starter and elite goalie for the next 15 yrs, you ain't going to find what you're looking for. 

What a couple of us have been saying is that he's succeeded at every level he's been at, and because of that, he deserves more than 1.5 seasons to show his worth.  He's a goalie who's 23 for pete's sake.  

Because you found 1 example of a highly touted prospect who didn't turn out, here's better, more recent comparables to chew on:

Jonathan Quick's first 2 seasons - .914 & .907

Carey Price - .920 & .905

Pekka Rinne - .917 & .911

Freddy Anderson - .923 & .914

Sergei Bobrovsky - .915 & .898

Martin Jones - .934 & .906

Corey Crawford - .917 & .903

Connor Hellebuyck - .918 & .907

Seems to me Hellebuyck is to date pretty well in line with current legit #1's and the start to their careers.  .910 isn't good enough, no.  But it's miles better than Pavelec.

I have no idea whether he pans out or not.  If he does pan out, will it even be here? I'm not an expert by any means, but throwing a guy to the curb at 23 because he's been one of SEVERAL inconsistent Jets this year seems wildly irresponsible. 

Lastly - I think his style throws some people off.  He's a self-described "big & boring" goalie.  Looking for highlight reel saves where goalie is forced to recover because he was out of position - wait until Pavs signs in the A or the K next season. 

 

The guy is a professional hockey player. Hellebuyck gets paid to win. Not to play. We can spin our wheels on the guy or move on to someone better. Cheveldayoff got us in this situation by overestimating his value as a player & making him the #1 goalie here when he clearly wasn't ready. I have no interest in waiting if he develops. If he does with us great. If not, then maybe with another team. That happens all the time  so if it happens then so be it. But to wait to find out if he does develop into a legit #1 when goaltending is killing us nearly every game? Sorry no.

[JCon]

3 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

The guy is a professional hockey player. Hellebuyck gets paid to win. Not to play.

Both teams get paid to win but only one does each night. 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

Both teams get paid to win but only one does each night. 

And the team that doesn't win makes changes. All except the Jets. They get a pass because we should just be glad we have a team in the NHL.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[The Unknown Poster]

9 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

And the team that doesn't win makes changes. All except the Jets. They get a pass because we should just be glad we have a team in the NHL.

 

 

I dislike this argument.  i've seen it before.  Usually it comes hand in hand with "oh there were some empty seats" or "the market is softening" and my favorite "this team will be gone in 5 years".

There might be something to the idea that the market is more forgiving in the afterglow of regaining the Jets.  But I dont think for one second anyone in Jets management or ownership is content to lose.  And I dont even think they'd change their plans even if there was a sudden drop in season ticket renewals. 

There might be something to be said for Chevy not being "bold" and the Jets taking a slower, steadier pace.  It frustrates me when I see a GM like Rutherford make changes constantly to win.  Then again, they have Crosby, Malkin and Letang. 

[mbrg]

15 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Cheveldayoff got us in this situation by overestimating his value as a player & making him the #1 goalie here when he clearly wasn't ready.

That is taking all the context out of the situation.  With the expansion draft and Pavelec's contract ending, creating a typical scenario where Hellebuyck beats out the established vet and proves himself along the way wasn't going to happen.  They were not overestimating his value, they were assessing it.

Hellebuyck was ready to be tested as the #1 goalie.  Just because he didn't show any signs of being an elite goalie doesn't mean he wasn't ready to step into the #1 goalie spot.  Kari Lehtonin has been a #1 goalie for almost a decade and has never been elite.  I wouldn't call him any better or worse than what Hellebuyck showed this year.

Chevy started the year without a #1 but definitely hoped and expected that Hellebuyck would beat out Hutchinson.  With the expansion draft at the end of this season and Pavelec in the last year of his contract, the Jets decided to find out how Hellebuyck could do in a full season.  The reason for doing it this way was simple - by the end of the year they would know whether or not they needed to adjust the plan.

If they brought another keeper in then they 1) have to expose him or Hellebuyck to Vegas at the end of the season, and 2) still don't have a clear answer on where Hellebuyck is in his development.

The Jets have two goalies in the system that they think are NHL caliber in Hellebuyck and Comrie, possibly three if Phillips continues to progress.  But they don't know if they are until they increase their exposure to all situations.

So now what?  The Jets can protect Hellebuyck, expose Hutchinson and give Pavelec a nice gift basket on his way out.  If Vegas takes Hutchinson over one of our forwards and the many far more qualified goalies on other teams, they're nuts, but maybe.

More likely the Jets pick between the following two choices in the offseason: 1) call up Comrie and fully commit to the youth movement with a "may the best man win" competition between their two best prospects, or 2) sign a free agent goalie and have Hellebuyck compete against him for the top spot.  While most will want the Jets to pick that second option, finding a goalie who wants to come here and be in that situation won't be easy.  I'd love the Jets to sign Darling to a 3 or 4 year deal for a reasonable salary and have him battle Hellebuyck, but why would Darling want to do that?  He's been stuck behind Crawford for years waiting for this opportunity to be a #1 - he's going to go to the best place to do that, not one where he's supposed to be pushing the guy management really wants.  He's going to want a 6 year deal, not to be a placeholder who has a contract that makes him easy to get rid of.  Trade for Fleury?  He has 2 years left after this season.  Problem there is if Vegas can take him (no NMC) they will.

So the results are inconclusive, which sucks.  Hellebuyck hasn't shown himself to be a great goalie, but he also hasn't shown that he can't be a great goalie.  Never going to be a great goalie is a file we can safely put Hutchinson and Pavelec in.  I'm not going there with Hellebuyck yet and I'm guessing neither are the Jets.

[kelownabomberfan]

Hellebuyck definitely shows flashes of greatness.  Last night against the Isles he made some jaw-dropping saves.  The problem is that he also still lets in too many floaters.  I think its a combo of experience and confidence.  The Jets need to invest in a goal-tending coach that is going to build on Helle's strengths, and build his confidence.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

35 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Hellebuyck definitely shows flashes of greatness.  Last night against the Isles he made some jaw-dropping saves.  The problem is that he also still lets in too many floaters.  I think its a combo of experience and confidence.  The Jets need to invest in a goal-tending coach that is going to build on Helle's strengths, and build his confidence.

Need to split duties next year but which goalie wants to be brought in to be a part of that. UFA goalies want to start not to backup or share.

 

Edited March 17, 2017 by FrostyWinnipeg

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Hellebuyck definitely shows flashes of greatness.  Last night against the Isles he made some jaw-dropping saves.  The problem is that he also still lets in too many floaters.  I think its a combo of experience and confidence.  The Jets need to invest in a goal-tending coach that is going to build on Helle's strengths, and build his confidence.

They have to do something.

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, mbrg said:

That is taking all the context out of the situation.  With the expansion draft and Pavelec's contract ending, creating a typical scenario where Hellebuyck beats out the established vet and proves himself along the way wasn't going to happen.  They were not overestimating his value, they were assessing it.

Hellebuyck was ready to be tested as the #1 goalie.  Just because he didn't show any signs of being an elite goalie doesn't mean he wasn't ready to step into the #1 goalie spot.  Kari Lehtonin has been a #1 goalie for almost a decade and has never been elite.  I wouldn't call him any better or worse than what Hellebuyck showed this year.

Chevy started the year without a #1 but definitely hoped and expected that Hellebuyck would beat out Hutchinson.  With the expansion draft at the end of this season and Pavelec in the last year of his contract, the Jets decided to find out how Hellebuyck could do in a full season.  The reason for doing it this way was simple - by the end of the year they would know whether or not they needed to adjust the plan.

If they brought another keeper in then they 1) have to expose him or Hellebuyck to Vegas at the end of the season, and 2) still don't have a clear answer on where Hellebuyck is in his development.

The Jets have two goalies in the system that they think are NHL caliber in Hellebuyck and Comrie, possibly three if Phillips continues to progress.  But they don't know if they are until they increase their exposure to all situations.

So now what?  The Jets can protect Hellebuyck, expose Hutchinson and give Pavelec a nice gift basket on his way out.  If Vegas takes Hutchinson over one of our forwards and the many far more qualified goalies on other teams, they're nuts, but maybe.

More likely the Jets pick between the following two choices in the offseason: 1) call up Comrie and fully commit to the youth movement with a "may the best man win" competition between their two best prospects, or 2) sign a free agent goalie and have Hellebuyck compete against him for the top spot.  While most will want the Jets to pick that second option, finding a goalie who wants to come here and be in that situation won't be easy.  I'd love the Jets to sign Darling to a 3 or 4 year deal for a reasonable salary and have him battle Hellebuyck, but why would Darling want to do that?  He's been stuck behind Crawford for years waiting for this opportunity to be a #1 - he's going to go to the best place to do that, not one where he's supposed to be pushing the guy management really wants.  He's going to want a 6 year deal, not to be a placeholder who has a contract that makes him easy to get rid of.  Trade for Fleury?  He has 2 years left after this season.  Problem there is if Vegas can take him (no NMC) they will.

So the results are inconclusive, which sucks.  Hellebuyck hasn't shown himself to be a great goalie, but he also hasn't shown that he can't be a great goalie.  Never going to be a great goalie is a file we can safely put Hutchinson and Pavelec in.  I'm not going there with Hellebuyck yet and I'm guessing neither are the Jets.

They have to bring in a UFA next season. If it means they'll be overpaying then so be it. We can't throw away another year in net as we did this season. The Jets with solid goaltending could be a contender for at least a playoff spot. They aren't with the goaltending they're getting now. Yeah, they won last night with Helleybuyck in goal but how may have they lost because he couldn't make the save when he had to? They can't have another young goalie & a youth movement in net. So, throw away Option 1. Even Option 2 won't work. There shouldn't be a competition. Hellebuyck should backup. If fans want him to develop then let him develop behind a veteran. Play 20 games & see what happens.

Edited March 17, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[FrostyWinnipeg]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

They have to bring in a UFA next season. If iit means overpaying then so be it. We can't throw away another year in net as we did this year. The Jets with solid goaltending could be a contender for at least a playoff spot. they aren't with the goaltending they're getting now. Yeah, they won last night with Helleybuyck in goal but how may have they lost because he couldn't make the save when he had to? They can't have another young goalie & a youth movement in net. So, throw away Option 1. Even Option 2 won't work. There shouldn't be a competition. Hellebuyck should backup.

TO got a starter for a 2nd round pick. Do you want a starter or a backup.

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

TO got a starter for a 2nd round pick. Do you want a starter or a backup.

Starter. We don't have one now. We have a guy struggling to play & find his way.

Edited March 17, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

9 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I dislike this argument.  i've seen it before.  Usually it comes hand in hand with "oh there were some empty seats" or "the market is softening" and my favorite "this team will be gone in 5 years".

There might be something to the idea that the market is more forgiving in the afterglow of regaining the Jets.  But I dont think for one second anyone in Jets management or ownership is content to lose.  And I dont even think they'd change their plans even if there was a sudden drop in season ticket renewals. 

There might be something to be said for Chevy not being "bold" and the Jets taking a slower, steadier pace.  It frustrates me when I see a GM like Rutherford make changes constantly to win.  Then again, they have Crosby, Malkin and Letang. 

I don't think Chevy or Maurice come to work everyday worrying about their jobs like they would if they were with the Leafs, Canadiens, Red Wings or Chicago. They should be worried but they're not.

[Goalie]

14 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Starter. We don't have one now. We have a guy struggling to play & find his way.

Probably because our team D sucks and the coaches have zero confidence in our backup so he's running helle in to the ground. He's started like 30 of our last 34 games or something ridiculous. 15 in a row now.... what we need is a capable backup or 1b starter so helle can actually rest from time to time.  Maurice is running him a bit to much this year.  He needs a break every 10 games. Not many legit starters even play 15 straight anymore. Like it or not he's our starter... he isn't even a huge problem... he's basically a NHL rookie playing behind a team who for 60 of their games this year didn't know how to play D and still doesn't.  Melchiori Stuart chiarot postma... 4 of out 6 guys the last few games are an average ahl D 

Edited March 17, 2017 by Goalie

[SpeedFlex27]

10 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Probably because our team D sucks and the coaches have zero confidence in our backup so he's running helle in to the ground. He's started like 30 of our last 34 games or something ridiculous. 15 in a row now.... what we need is a capable backup or 1b starter so helle can actually rest from time to time.  Maurice is running him a bit to much this year.  He needs a break every 10 games. Not many legit starters even play 15 straight anymore. Like it or not he's our starter... he isn't even a huge problem... he's basically a NHL rookie playing behind a team who for 60 of their games this year didn't know how to play D and still doesn't.  Melchiori Stuart chiarot postma... 4 of out 6 guys the last few games are an average ahl D 

No, What we need is a legit starter & Hellebuyck can spell him off when he needs to as his backup. You keep pumping this guy's tires like he's the second coming of Ken Dryden. More like the second coming of Andre Racicot.

[Goalie]

4 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

No, What we need is a legit starter & Hellebuyck can spell him off when he needs to as his backup. You keep pumping this guy's tires like he's the second coming of Ken Dryden. More like the second coming of Andre Racicot.

Right. I'm not pumping his tires. I'm just saying he's not really the problem.  I'm not sure what you expected from him? Something unrealistic I suppose? Cuz he's a rookie playing on a team who doesn't know how to play D. In reality nobody expected this team to be playoff bound this year... perhaps you did but I've said all along that they'd probably be fighting for a wild card spot and up until a week or so ago... they were... even with an ahl d outside of buff and Morrissey for probably 20 games to start the year and probably 25 now in now total with trouba being suspended earlier and missing the last 2. even without their 2nd line center for longer...

And is it any real surprise that a 500 career coach has his team playing at almost 500. This idea that helle is the main issue is ridiculous... it's not having a capable backup that's been the issue. Pav and hutch combined have played like 20 less games than helle and have basically the same amount of losses as helle does. A rookie goaltender is not the problem... the backups who Maurice won't even play now for the last 15 games plus have been. 

Did you watch the game last night? You see our D zone play in the third? Yikes. Luckily helle was there to bail them out tho. Altho sounds like you'd be happier with a loss so IMO if you are hoping they lose.... then your opinion might not be irrelevant but it's definitely not one anyone should take seriously.  

[sweep the leg]

delete

Edited March 18, 2017 by sweep the leg

[SpeedFlex27]

34 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Right. I'm not pumping his tires. I'm just saying he's not really the problem.  I'm not sure what you expected from him? Something unrealistic I suppose? Cuz he's a rookie playing on a team who doesn't know how to play D. In reality nobody expected this team to be playoff bound this year... perhaps you did but I've said all along that they'd probably be fighting for a wild card spot and up until a week or so ago... they were... even with an ahl d outside of buff and Morrissey for probably 20 games to start the year and probably 25 now in now total with trouba being suspended earlier and missing the last 2. even without their 2nd line center for longer...

And is it any real surprise that a 500 career coach has his team playing at almost 500. This idea that helle is the main issue is ridiculous... it's not having a capable backup that's been the issue. Pav and hutch combined have played like 20 less games than helle and have basically the same amount of losses as helle does. A rookie goaltender is not the problem... the backups who Maurice won't even play now for the last 15 games plus have been. 

Did you watch the game last night? You see our D zone play in the third? Yikes. Luckily helle was there to bail them out tho. Altho sounds like you'd be happier with a loss so IMO if you are hoping they lose.... then your opinion might not be irrelevant but it's definitely not one anyone should take seriously.  

Right now yeah, I'd be happier with a loss so we have a better chance in the Draft Lottery. What other hope do we have? I expected a lot more from this team. What I find frustrating is ownership's unerring loyalty in Cheveldayoff & Maurice. That they seem to have "jobs for life" with this team. And all the bad personnel & questionabledecisions that go along with it.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[sweep the leg]

12 hours ago, mbrg said:

 

More likely the Jets pick between the following two choices in the offseason: 1) call up Comrie and fully commit to the youth movement with a "may the best man win" competition between their two best prospects, or 2) sign a free agent goalie and have Hellebuyck compete against him for the top spot.  While most will want the Jets to pick that second option, finding a goalie who wants to come here and be in that situation won't be easy.  I'd love the Jets to sign Darling to a 3 or 4 year deal for a reasonable salary and have him battle Hellebuyck, but why would Darling want to do that?  He's been stuck behind Crawford for years waiting for this opportunity to be a #1 - he's going to go to the best place to do that, not one where he's supposed to be pushing the guy management really wants.  He's going to want a 6 year deal, not to be a placeholder who has a contract that makes him easy to get rid of. 

I'm firmly in the camp that thinks we need to bring someone in to create a 1a-1b situation. There are several pending fas who could fill that role; Johnson, Condon, Darling, even Mason. None of those guys, imo, are likely to go anywhere as the undisputed #1. Maybe Darling, but the supply of goalies is likely to be greater than the demand, and although he's looked good as as a backup, he's not a proven guy yet.

Edit: I had Elliott on that list, but his recent hot streak probably keeps him a Flame.

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by sweep the leg