Rogue One *SPOILERS*

[The Unknown Poster]

The embargo on reviews is now over and those who saw the Premiere can report.  Here is one from a site I enjoy (Latino Review) which somewhat minor spoilers that most people already know (a couple of cameos):

http://lrmonline.com/news/film-review-rogue-one-a-star-wars-story

So...should we treat this thread as a spoiler thread for those of us that see the film this week?  I will be seeing it Thursday...

Edited December 16, 2016 by The Unknown Poster

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Whats left to spoil I wonder.

[The Unknown Poster]

19 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Whats left to spoil I wonder.

I've been somewhat avoiding so maybe there are things that are common knowledge, but things such as how much Vader is in it, who's in the 'bacta tank' from the trailers, who survives the mission, any cameo's (besides the one strongly suggested in the trailers and pretty much common knowledge).

[Logan007]

Oh good, You didn't post spoilers.  LOL...I was leary about entering.

I've heard there are actually quite a few surprises and spoilers in the movie.  I'm not sure what, other then what TUP already mentioned.

Yeah, let's go ahead and treat this thread as a spoiler thread.  In which case, I'll see Mr. Thread again after Friday evening.

[Rich]

Just a reminder ... the "eye" button in the toolbar can be used to post text as a spoiler which will give people the option to open it and look or not.

Spoiler

Just highlight the text you want in a spoiler and click the "eye" button (2nd last button from the right)

 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Rich said:

Just a reminder ... the "eye" button in the toolbar will put anything you post as a spoiler which will give people the option to open it and look or not.

  Reveal hidden contents

Just highlight the text you want in a spoiler and click the "eye" button (2nd last button from the right)

 

I was thinking that, but once the film opens, wouldnt it be easier to let people discuss without having a million little spoiler things all over?

[Rich]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I was thinking that, but once the film opens, wouldnt it be easier to let people discuss without having a million little spoiler things all over?

Sure, but I would say the thread should be renamed to spoilers at that point... I was thinking more on the rumours to the lead up.

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, Rich said:

Sure, but I would say the thread should be renamed to spoilers at that point... I was thinking more on the rumours to the lead up.

Oh yes, I originally was going to call it *SPOILERS* and realized I changed it to "potential".

As a spoiler junky, I've been fighting the urge to read details.  I've seen a few things if people want to know...

We all know Vader is in it (he's in the trailers), but how much is he in it?

Spoiler

Not much, apparently.  Doesnt do anything save for a reportedly spectacular two minutes

Any cameos besides the one we saw a hint of in the trailers?

Spoiler

We saw Bail Organa in the trailers.  And there are CGI re-creations of Tarkin and Leia which have divided the audience into the "it was so fake" and "It was amazing" camps

Any connection to the sequel saga?

Spoiler

Reportedly, not at all.  So dont expect Snoke.

Im seeing it tomorrow...will dissect it thoroughly on Frday! ;-)

[The Unknown Poster]

I changed the topic to indicate SPOILERS.  So be forewarned.  Its wide open now!

 

I saw the film last night.  I very much enjoyed it.  I saw it with the buddy who is an unabashed Star Wars fanboy.  He might have been erect most of the film and felt obligated to whisper in my ear, if Obi Wan showed up he would likely climax right there in the theatre.

With that out of the way, my spoiler-filled review:

While watching, I was conscious of the fact this isnt a great film technically.  I could see numerous ways in which smarty pants critics will savage it.  The narrative is cloudy, confusing and jumpy.  The fact they did extensive re-shoots is no surprise and the fact a lot of footage from the trailers is not in the film is also no surprise.  It seems to me, they had a ton of footage, maybe some disagreements as to the narrative and were overwhelmed in the edit room.

Its a big story to wrap their arms around, even though the actual plot is rather straight forward.  We begin 15 years before A New Hope (if my numbers and memory are correct).  Imperial Director Krennic shows up at Galen Erso's farm, demanding he return to complete his work as a scientist developing the Death Star.  He refuses so Krennic kills his wife and threatens to find his daughter.  So Galen relents and goes with him, seemingly to resolve whatever issue Krennic is having in bringing the Death Star to completion.

We learn of some EU stuff that is now cannon - the existence of Kyber Crystals which power lightsabers and now also power the Death Star.

Erso's daughter Jyn had escaped when Krennic came for her dad and was taken in by "rebel" Saw Guerrera.  We later learn he trained her as a soldier and then abandoned her when he felt her identity would become a threat.  Saw also had a falling out with the Rebel Alliance because he was too much akin to a terrorist.

But what makes Rogue One interesting is that they dont shy away from the warfare aspect.  There is no blood and guts.  But the "heroic" rebels kill, even essentially murdering an informant because he was disabled and couldnt escape (he was skittish and presumably might have been subject to torture so killing him kept the information he brought a secret).

The male lead Cassian is tasked by Mon Mothma with finding Galen and killing him.  Ofcourse, he develops feelings for Jyn yadda yadda yadda.

There is a lot of A had to happen so B can happen so C can happen.  And in that way, the plot feels rather loose.  Although in that respect its along the vein of A New Hope which is filled with a lot of coincidences and chance that lead us down the path we need to go (some might call it destiny or the Will of the Force).

For example, Krennic thinks a successful Death Star is his ticket to more power within the Empire but thinks Tarkin is going to take credit for it to the Emperor so he visits Vader...which brings Vader into the story.  And on that subject, Vader is barely in it.  In fact, its almost jarring as his final scene belies a more traditional "space war" film, even as cool as it is to see.

More surprising than how little Vader is in it, is how much Tarkin is.  Krennic is not the big bad guy the trailers made him seem.  He's a middle manager, a project manager of the Death Star who reports to Tarkin.  There has been a lot of debate about Tarkin in this movie and you will hear the term "Uncanny Valley" more than you will ever want to.  My take?  The CGI that brought Tarkin to life is jaw-dropping, emotional and incredible. 

Uncanny Valley refers to the feeling humans have when viewing something that looks real that we know isnt.  And I've read that people who arent that familiar with A New Hope assumed Tarkin in Rogue One was a real person whereas those of us that know better could tell it was "fake".  It was incredible.  I dont know if I could tell it was fake as much as I KNEW it was fake since the actor is long dead.  It was amazing and very very cool to see Tarkin back.  In fact, I have no idea what he said in his first scene because I was mesmerized by seeing him.

As it relates to Vader, the much-speculated "Bacta Tank" scene is, in fact, Vader (out of the armor).  However, its akin to the ESB scene of his meditation chamber in that its a very well protected shot and we see very little of him.  Just a hint enough to indicate that when he's lounging around his castle on Mustafar that he needs to soak in Bacta.  I wished we had scene more.  In a way, this was one of the few connections to the Prequels, but I can understand why the film makers were careful not to De-mystify Vader too much.

When Vader finally has something to do, he goes ape ****.  its brief but spectacular.

Other Prequel mentions include Bail Organa.  And good on Jimmy Smitts for taking on a rather small role where he has nothing to do.  I wonder if he's been promised more down the road. 

The one thing that didnt add up to me, and maybe I missed something.  Bail mentions returning to Alderaan.  That is because we know it gets blown up in A New Hope.  He's on Yavin.  But so are the original droids.  Bail also makes mention of sending someone to contact Obi Wan.  So if Bail and Leia are both on Alderaan and Leia is heading to Alderaan (as she and the ship Captain say in ANH), why didnt Bail go with them?  Why take his own ship...and how did he get there so fast, if we're to believe he dies on Alderaan?  I suppose the "diplomatic mission to Alderaan" could be a lie if Leia's real mission was to go to Tatooine to find Obi Wan, but then why take the Death Star plans with her?  Seems like a dangerous mission.

Anyway, Rogue One ends basically moments before A New Hope begins.  And we see the Princess on her ship.  Its pretty cool too.

So in summary, technically, Rogue One has a lot of issues as a film.  But it was enjoyable and fun and the nostalgia aspects were inspiring.  The buddy loved it and said "thats what the prequels should have been"

I suspect we will get more Universe-building from the pre-A New Hope era and the CGI that brought Tarkin (and Leia) to life would certainly allow them to do the same with anyone else they might need.  Oh and they also used footage from A New Hope during the Rogue One space battle so some of the Alliance pilots were the actual pilots from A New Hope. 

As a Star Trek fan, this is just another example of how Paramount just doesnt get it and runs away from its own history while LucasFilm embraces it.  Which vision is more successful?  Not the Trek one...

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

As a Star Trek fan, this is just another example of how Paramount just doesnt get it and runs away from its own history while LucasFilm embraces it.  Which vision is more successful?  Not the Trek one...

LucasFilm is owned by Disney so I'm not sure much if any credit should be given to them. The same company that made 1,2,3 joined the light side and started making good films? This is all on Disney for coming out and saying we're going to make 7,8,9 and a couple of independents like Young Han Solo and a film about the bounty hunter guy, oh and Lucas? Nah we dont need him.

Star Wars is money in the bank and to big to fail operation. See SW1:TPM.

My question for you is that Ive heard the CGI Leia is hit or miss. Is it not as good as Tarkin?

http://heavy.com/entertainment/2016/12/rogue-one-star-wars-spoilers-peter-cushing-grand-moff-tarkin-guy-henry-cgi/

Good review btw. Felt like ive seen it.

Edited December 16, 2016 by FrostyWinnipeg

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

LucasFilm is owned by Disney so I'm not sure much if any credit should be given to them. The same company that made 1,2,3 joined the light side and started making good films? This is all on Disney for coming out and saying we're going to make 7,8,9 and a couple of independents like Young Han Solo and a film about the bounty hunter guy, oh and Lucas? Nah we dont need him.

Star Wars is money in the bank and to big to fail operation. See SW1:TPM.

My question for you is that Ive heard the CGI Lea is hit or miss. Is it not as good as Tarkin?

http://heavy.com/entertainment/2016/12/rogue-one-star-wars-spoilers-peter-cushing-grand-moff-tarkin-guy-henry-cgi/

Good review btw. Felt like ive seen it.

LucasFilm as an entity is the production company behind the Star Wars films, headed by Kathleen Kennedy.  The prequels were a mess because of George Lucas.  Kennedy is much smarter at assembling creative talent and having a plan.

I think they hit a homerun as far as Rogue One being popular.  VIII should be great.  Young Han Solo in 2018 is going to be something....thats where they could suffer.  Will be interesting to see what happens.  Im more intrigued with the idea of getting Ewen McGregor back for an Obi Wan adventure.

Regarding Leia, I enjoyed it.  Her teeth might be a bit off.  Its very quick.  Tarkin was in the film quite a bit.  If his appearance wasnt a surprise, he'd be considered one of the leads.  His role is bigger than Krennic (or comparable at least).  And I was amazed every time he was on film.  Leia is seen from behind, then she turns while the camera switches to another behind shot so in that moment it tricks you into thinking you wont see her face, then she turns around and faces the camera, utters one word and end credits.  I'd have to see her again.  She looked just like A New Hope though.  Its good.

Anyone who says Tarkin and Leia arent great, you have to look at like "bad" in the context of an amazing technological feat to being a long dead actor back to life as a regular and important member of the cast.  Its like the expression "sex is like pizza.  Even when its bad, it still pretty good."  If this CGI is bad, its still infinitely better than anything anyone has ever done before. 

I think the negative reaction is that "Uncanny Valley" thing.  its a psychological or subconscious reaction to seeing something so real that you know isnt, so your brain is trying to make sense of it.  So its not that people think its bad, they are interpreting their subconscious reaction to it and simplifying it as "bad".  Believe me, its amazing.  And even if you dont love it, the hint of fakery or that Uncanny Valley thing is absolutely worth it to have Tarkin in this film. 

[Logan007]

I found Tarkin and Leila, although amazingly done, were noticeably VFX. But as technology gets better, they'll eventually rerelease this movie with even better VFX of the two of them that you won't be able to tell are cgi. 

I thought Vader also wasn't done very well. Just his movements and what not just didn't feel like Vader. I get making a character your own, but when it's suppose to lead right into another film, you should try and copy the body language as much as possible. 

There were a few other things I didn't like that were minor like the repeated lines of "I am the force, the force is with me". That was so annoying. 

Otherwise the story and acting were good. Pacing was off at the beginning but picked up in the second and third act. And the space battle was amazing. 

I could get into more but I'll just say, although I didn't like this as much as The Force Awakens, it was leaps better then the prequels. 

[The Unknown Poster]

The thing about Vader, something bothered me. But when I looked into it, he seems different because his costume was altered for every other film. This costume was exactly the same as A New Hope. So it's weird that he seems off but in reality he's exactly as he should be. The helmet especially seems wrong but it's because it was changed after ANH

i thought his movements and mannerisms were pretty spot on. They even fought the urge to have him fight like the prequels and kept his movements pretty "stiff" like ANH. 

Have to assume we will get a film focusing on Vader at some point. 

And I agree. I liked TFA more. But this was really good. What elevates it close to TFA was Tarkin and Vader. 

Edited December 17, 2016 by The Unknown Poster

[johnzo]

Saw it.  Thought it was pretty good, but not super amazing.  All the characters were likable, but none of them leapt off the screen. 

The weird story beat where the Alliance isn't in on the mission, then suddenly they are, felt like a bit of a waste, it was brought up and then just dismissed.  Wonder if that plot point had a bigger focus in previous versions of the story.

[MOBomberFan]

I saw the movie last night, and I loved it. I'm a fan of Alan Tudyk (K2SO) and Donnie Yen (Chirrut, blind dude), so it's no surprise that they were my favorite characters. Tarkin was incredible... CG animation has come a long way. I kind of think the Phillip Seymour Hoffman CG in Hunger Games was more convincing (as far as looking human when standing next to a human goes)... but CG Tarkin had a lot more screen time and expressed a greater range of emotion than CG PSH ever did... CG Tarkin is quite a feat. Vader seemed spot on to me, I'm not sure what wasn't done very well. From the over-exaggerated finger pointing/jabbing in the air to the force choke, it looked pretty faithful to the original. The less than 2 minutes of Vader action at the end was something I'm glad I saw in IMAX 3D. Pure kickassery.

My favorite takeaway from the movie... was neatly explaining how the Death Star came to have a built in weak spot to begin with. ANH simply explains the weakness away as an oversight on the Empire's part... "...The Empire doesn't consider a single fighter to be a threat or they'd have a tighter defense... an analysis of the plans has demonstrated a weakness" and so on... glossed over, pretty lame and often parodied (Family Guy, Robot Chicken to name a couple). Rogue One remedies that entirely.

I also love how Rogue One ends by leading directly into ANH, but it makes Leia's protests to Vader that she is on a diplomatic mission seem a little silly now... ***** I JUST WATCHED YOU FLY OUT OF A MILITARY FRIGATE.

[The Unknown Poster]

Yeah I wonder how much was changed of the ending by the re-shoots. The plot gets really muddled. 

We know Leia was on Yavin with Bail. Bail tells Mon he's going to send her to get Obi Wan. Instead her ship (inside the larger) goes to the battle which is essentially a suicide mission.  So why would Bail send her there?  Or allow it? 

I think we needed a scene where Leia acknowledges her mission is to go to Tatooine but decides to help the battle. 

In A New Hope she was lying. And Antilles told the same lie so that was their cover story. They claimed to be on a diplomatic mission to Alderaan. But we know Leia was sent to Tatooine. If she was going to Alderaan it also makes little sense that Bail didn't go with her since that's where he was going. 

So while Leia pushed her silly cover story to Vader, his reply can be taken with a little more incredulity now. "You're part of a rebel alliance and a traitor!" Because he saw her ship leave the battle first hand. 

I think it would have been better if her ship was on its way to Tatooine and was monitoring the battle. Decided to swoop in to retrieve the transmission and swoop out. Have Vader be told of several ships in the area and as he stares at them he "chooses" Leia's which would imply using the force. 

Rogue One is weak in so many ways but is also so enjoyable it's easy to overlook. 

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[Taynted_Fayth]

I saw Rogue one tonight with my kid,  we both enjoyed it. all in all I wasnt a fan of the constant i am the force may the force be with me chant by Yen but I'm a bg Yen fan - just binge watched the Ip Man movies again about a month ago, so i was hoping for a little more from him.  the way they made the trailers seem, I thought forest whitaker was going to have a bigger role

 

[Logan007]

I watched it again Sunday.  I guess I'm just not a huge "war film" fan or something, but the first half of this movie bored the hell out of me.  I was almost falling asleep during the movie.  As soon as the second half turns it on, my brain ignited.  I really liked everyone's performance.  I don't know what it is, about that first half but it just takes me out of the movie.  I'm not really a "Saving Private Ryan" fan, so maybe the writing just doesn't get to me.

That being said I still like the movie and am glad it has a different feel then other Star Wars movies, because it's good to see something fresh and new to change things up a bit.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Logan007

[Taynted_Fayth]

i too felt kind of bored at the beginning, but it picked up nicely.  Though I went to see hacksaw ridge last week i picked up one of those upcoming movie mags and it had a "meet the new droids" section in it,  while it had a bigger piece on K-2SO, it had a black R2-D2 called a C2-B5

 

an imperial droid,   did anyone notice it in the movie? i sure didnt

 

Edited December 19, 2016 by Taynted_Fayth

[Logan007]

I don't recall seeing that droid.

[Taynted_Fayth]

as far as the story goes, I think they could have tied in TFA a little bit too.

 In attack of the Clones on Mustafar I believe when the bad guys are having a meeting they show a hologram of the death star, that was like 20 years before ANH so it clearly takes a while to build these things.  After Tarkin kind of usurps control of the death star from Krennic, and knowing there is a flaw in the base,  Krennic should have gone to Galen Erso (prior to knowing he was the one who sold them out) or one of his crew on that base in Eadu and proposed making a new and better death star... the eventual Starkiller that comes into play another 20 years later in TFA.

Obviously Krennic wouldn't have seen it move forward or complete but those plans would be out there, unaware by the emperor, the rebels and eventually fall into the hands of the first order

[FrostyWinnipeg]

7 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

I don't recall seeing that droid.

Oh Obi-Wan...you trickster!

[Rich]

16 minutes ago, Logan007 said:

I don't recall seeing that droid.

It wasn't the droid I was looking for.

[The Unknown Poster]

20 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

as far as the story goes, I think they could have tied in TFA a little bit too.

 In attack of the Clones on Mustafar I believe when the bad guys are having a meeting they show a hologram of the death star, that was like 20 years before ANH so it clearly takes a while to build these things.  After Tarkin kind of usurps control of the death star from Krennic, and knowing there is a flaw in the base,  Krennic should have gone to Galen Erso (prior to knowing he was the one who sold them out) or one of his crew on that base in Eadu and proposed making a new and better death star... the eventual Starkiller that comes into play another 20 years later in TFA.

Obviously Krennic wouldn't have seen it move forward or complete but those plans would be out there, unaware by the emperor, the rebels and eventually fall into the hands of the first order

I think that was Geonosis or whatever it was called, not Mustafar.  Mustafar was first shown when Anakin went there to kill the separatists and fought Obi Wan (if i recall correctly).

There is the idea that the second Death Star is a flaw but I would suspect the Emperor ordered its construction and kept it secret - had two different compartmentalized teams working on both.  And recall the second Death Star was far from finished (although fully operational).  it was clearly created in haste.

Im a bit surprised there was nothing in RO connecting to the new sequels, but in all honesty, its probably for the best.