Canadian Politics

[Mark H.]

Extreme left positions:

1. Russia under Stalin (already debated this one)

2. Cancel Culture

3. Pretend socialism, especially by the Liberal party. I'm not sure if I would call this extreme leftism or just inappropriate, but it has become the norm in Canada and it is really is a big issue. 

[Mark F]

also, when speaking of extremes, what was once considered extreme right, is now mainstream right.

 

there are outright racist fascists and insurrectionists running as Republican party members, and being elected for the local, state, and National Government.

one of these people took the Jan 6th insurrectionists on a tour of the House of Congress, a day or two before they acted.

 

There are elected ,popular, racist right wingers who are calling for the overturn of the election.

That is an extreme threat. a very large one.

There are exactly Zero elected Democratic, progressive, left side, reps who have in my memory done anything as anti democratic as that. if anything they cave before the right wing assault.

and then they come with, " reasonable discussion, boo hoo, wah, so unfair, just want open mind"

no facts, only vague generalized emotional arguments.

 

like the ones presented here. basically fact free. sometimes, some facts, which are always wrong.

 

ridiculous, but apparently effective technique. combined with fanatical zeal, and no capacity for shame,  seems to work quite well.

 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Mark F

[17to85]

26 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

2. Cancel Culture

Cancel culture is an extreme right wing position too. They love to cancel people who don't agree with them. Also big fans of safe spaces too.

[itchy]

Here's my take on the whole violence from the left misdirection (if you're gonna ignore or discredit, you're gonna ignore and discredit no matter what);

I'm probably as about as left as they come, as it is part of my job. I've attended meetings and zoom calls for BLM on a national and international level, including with Toronto, and US chapters of BLM, as we were trying to understand the issues as things unfolded last year, what was needed, and how we could support. There was never a sniff of any violent actions being discussed. Never. Lots of talk on being visible, being vocal, being informed and fighting misinformation. Never about what you need to protect yourselves, other than through sheer numbers. Fighting back was actively discouraged, as it was known how that would be spun.  Meeting and seeing these people certainly did not bring up images of the Black Panthers, or anyone capable of violence.

I believe the the whole concept of a violent left wing organized Antifa is made up. If there was anything remotely violent being planned, I am confident I would have heard about it even in passing or as a suggestion. Any violent action from the left is either largely disproportionate to right wing violence, reactionary, or a result of mob mentality. I'm not denying its existence, but i do believe that it is a narrative for whataboutism and to validate right wing violence.

Edited August 24, 2021 by itchy

[Goldkobra]

Cancel culture is a problem??? What happens when someone gets "canceled "? They lose some twitter followers??

[Mark H.]

14 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Cancel culture is an extreme right wing position too. They love to cancel people who don't agree with them. Also big fans of safe spaces too.

Exactly. The political spectrum is actually a circle. 

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Ok, if you want thoughtful debate, we are till awaiting your list of extreme left stances. So far, you have ID’d 2 groups (BLM and ANTIFA) but not elaborated how their stances are extreme (there have been extreme actions by a very few members, but I would question if that then makes the entire movement extreme, or their stance extreme). Other than that or suppessing free speech on University campuses (which others debate as hate speech) all you have come back with is “surely you jest if you are so biased as to not see the extreme leftism which is strongly present at this time. And your failure to admit this makes you part of the problem”. That’s not debate, so you are engaging in the same behaviour you just decried. So once again, provide a list of extreme left wing positions so we can have that thoughtful debate you want.  

LMAO....you would just dismiss them. I'm not going to play your game. The whole cancel culture and absurd length of political correctness everyone must endure is extreme.  Biologists under attack for stating that biologically there are two sexes...EXTREME,

55 minutes ago, itchy said:

Here's my take on the whole violence from the left misdirection (if you're gonna ignore or discredit, you're gonna ignore and discredit no matter what);

I'm probably as about as left as they come, as it is part of my job. I've attended meetings and zoom calls for BLM on a national and international level, including with Toronto, and US chapters of BLM, as we were trying to understand the issues as things unfolded last year, what was needed, and how we could support. There was never a sniff of any violent actions being discussed. Never. Lots of talk on being visible, being vocal, being informed and fighting misinformation. Never about what you need to protect yourselves, other than through sheer numbers. Fighting back was actively discouraged, as it was known how that would be spun.  Meeting and seeing these people certainly did not bring up images of the Black Panthers, or anyone capable of violence.

I believe the the whole concept of a violent left wing organized Antifa is made up. If there was anything remotely violent being planned, I am confident I would have heard about it even in passing or as a suggestion. Any violent action from the left is either largely disproportionate to right wing violence, reactionary, or a result of mob mentality. I'm not denying its existence, but i do believe that it is a narrative for whataboutism and to validate right wing violence.

As a small C conservative I abhor right wing extremism as much as left wing extremism. What I hate is either side saying that their political extremes are somehow justified or don't exist. It's pure nonsense. The only way we get the polarization between the two sides back to a healthy balance is by both sides working to eliminate the extremes from their ranks.

Edited August 24, 2021 by GCn20

[GCn20]

Back to the issue of Canadian politics, it sure looks like Trudeau's majority plan is in big jeopardy. The CPC now in a 4 point lead in Ontario. The Liberals will need to pick up a boat load of seats in Quebec and the numbers there have their support dipping as well. I think a CPC government is a long shot but it is quite possible this election narrows the gap even more on the Liberals. Trudeau's popularity is waning as well. The Liberals have their work cut out for them. It was a big risk to call this election at this time given everyone's post pandemic grumpiness....I think the Liberals overestimated their appeal.

Edited August 24, 2021 by GCn20

[JCon]

The Liberals called the election but didn't have their platform ready. Usually, that would be fine but both the CPCs and the NDP launched theirs and took a lot of attention. That was a big strategic mistake. Now, the Liberals have released theirs and the momentum will go back in their favour. They'll be leading the polls by 3 or 4 points by September first and in clear majority territory, which they'll sustain until election day. 

 

[Dascow]

5 hours ago, the watcher said:

I was having a conversation with a young man who was really ragging on Antifa and I pointed out to him that both his grandfather and my uncle were antifa in the 1940s. He didn't seem to appreciate my observation. 

I find it interesting that you used an Antifa meme to try and dismiss how radical they are.

Antifa was created by the communist party to fight the "Brown Shirts" in the streets of Germany. 

The Canadians that fought in WWII were liberals not Antifa. And when I say liberal, I am specifically talking about liberal philosophy, liberal principles, by which both conservatives and progressives can adhere to. 

Antifa are explicitly illiberal.  

[MOBomberFan]

13 minutes ago, Dascow said:

I find it interesting that you used an Antifa meme to try and dismiss how radical they are.

Antifa was created by the communist party to fight the "Brown Shirts" in the streets of Germany. 

The Canadians that fought in WWII were liberals not Antifa. And when I say liberal, I am specifically talking about liberal philosophy, liberal principles, by which both conservatives and progressives can adhere to. 

Antifa are explicitly illiberal.  

Doesn't antifa literally mean Anti-Fascist? Therefore, how were the allies not Antifa (regardless of their political leanings) when they were fighting fascists?

[Dascow]

13 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Doesn't antifa literally mean Anti-Fascist? Therefore, how were the allies not Antifa (regardless of their political leanings) when they were fighting fascists?

Nope.

It's a semantic game that they play. Don't fall for it. 

If the NAZIs changed their name to "We Love Puppies" would you believe that they're are group that just loves puppies? Of course not, that would be stupid because they have an ideology beyond the name.

Like I said, Antifa are explicitly illiberal. In other words, Antifa are against the Canadians that fought in WWII because they are against liberalism.

Their name is irrelevant. 

[the watcher]

36 minutes ago, Dascow said:

I find it interesting that you used an Antifa meme to try and dismiss how radical they are.

Antifa was created by the communist party to fight the "Brown Shirts" in the streets of Germany. 

The Canadians that fought in WWII were liberals not Antifa. And when I say liberal, I am specifically talking about liberal philosophy, liberal principles, by which both conservatives and progressives can adhere to. 

Antifa are explicitly illiberal.  

You missed my point.. Anyone who fought fascism in WW2 was an antifascist.  Obviously they weren't  part of the current group that names itself Antifa.( Note the capital)  I personally don't care  one iota about Antifa.  They are no threat to anyone. Except maybe the Proud Boyz 

[17to85]

Antifa isn't even a real organization. The while idea is simply what the name means. Anti fascist. 

[Dascow]

6 minutes ago, the watcher said:

You missed my point.. Anyone who fought fascism in WW2 was an antifascist.  Obviously they weren't  part of the current group that names itself Antifa.( Note the capital)  I personally don't care  one iota about Antifa.  They are no threat to anyone. Except maybe the Proud Boyz 

Then your point was pointless. 

People are clearly talking about Antifa. You are trying to obfuscate by declaring people who fought in WWII to be antifascist. 

And Antifa are a threat. They have attacked innocent people on multiple occasions and they have been involved in numerous riots all across America, smashing up peoples property and burning down buildings.   

3 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Antifa isn't even a real organization. The while idea is simply what the name means. Anti fascist. 

 What do you mean it's not a real organization? 

It's decentralized, but it's definitely real. Please tell me you know that Antifa is real...

I mean, this is basic reality. 

[the watcher]

Just now, 17to85 said:

Antifa isn't even a real organization. The while idea is simply what the name means. Anti fascist. 

I look at it this way. I could worry about Antifa, a loosely ,goosey not well organized some what of an organization that hates fascists, isn't generally well armed,and generally protests against violent acts. OR I can worry about groups like the Proud Boyz , Boogaloo movement, etc.......who are violent, well armed, racist, white supremacists, have a history of blowing things up ( Mcvie) , occupying Gov. buildings, shooting people, etc.... It's not a tough job to figure out who is the threat at this current time.

[blue_gold_84]

Nice to see this thread get derailed by conspiracy theories and misinformation... Practically none of it having anything do with politics here in Canada.

[the watcher]

There us no record of an actual Antifa person killing anyone.

Far Right organizations and individuals have killed multiple  hundreds. 

How many goverment buildings have Antifa broke into and taken over resulting in the death of people.-0

To suggest that Antifa is as big a threat as the far right groups in the US right now is ludicrous and without basis.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by the watcher

[JCon]

Antifa is a loose group that was certainly rooted in the anti-fascist movement during the first half of the century. 

Comparing today's Antifa factions to the days of old, is like comparing Republicans of today to the anti-slavery Republicans of the past. Name is the same but there is no connection. 

[the watcher]

5 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Nice to see this thread get derailed by conspiracy theories and misinformation... Practically none of it having anything do with politics here in Canada.

Lol. Sorry , I got lured in.

[Dascow]

FBI Director Christopher Wray -

"Antifa is a real thing. It is not a fiction."

"The FBI has seen Antifa engage in "organized tactical activity" at the local and regional level. Its adherents have coalesced and worked together in "nodes" rather than a structured hierarchy across the country."

"The type of organization does not diminish how serious the FBI considers the threat, Wray said. "We don't view how nationally organized something is as a proxy for how dangerous it is."

 

[JCon]

19 minutes ago, Dascow said:

FBI Director Christopher Wray -

"Antifa is a real thing. It is not a fiction."

"The FBI has seen Antifa engage in "organized tactical activity" at the local and regional level. Its adherents have coalesced and worked together in "nodes" rather than a structured hierarchy across the country."

"The type of organization does not diminish how serious the FBI considers the threat, Wray said. "We don't view how nationally organized something is as a proxy for how dangerous it is."

 

FBI director says antifa is an ideology, not an organization

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/fbi-director-says-antifa-is-an-ideology-not-an-organization

 

[Dascow]

11 minutes ago, JCon said:

FBI director says antifa is an ideology, not an organization

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/fbi-director-says-antifa-is-an-ideology-not-an-organization

 

JCon, read what you've quoted...😂

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, Dascow said:

JCon, read what you've quoted...😂

Yes, I'm literate. Despite what Trump was saying, it's not a group or organized. Exactly what everyone has been saying. 

But, he said, “It’s not a group or an organization. It’s a movement or an ideology.”

 

[Dascow]

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

Yes, I'm literate. Despite what Trump was saying, it's not a group or organized. Exactly what everyone has been saying. 

But, he said, “It’s not a group or an organization. It’s a movement or an ideology.”

 

 

"He continued that the FBI has seen Antifa engage in "organized tactical activity" at the local and regional level. Its adherents have coalesced and worked together in "nodes" rather than a structured hierarchy across the country."

"The type of organization does not diminish how serious the FBI considers the threat" 

I made it bigger for you to help you understand.