Canadian Politics

[Noeller]

26 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Milliuons of Canadians despise & even hate Trudeau. They feel Trudeau is destroying this country economically & sowing the seeds of discontentment & division. They just seem to have their votes parked somewhere else or have decided not to vote at all because they don't support anyone. If the Conservatives find a leader that has some kind of broad appeal then I can see a rush to the Conservatives that would even run over the PPC as Bernier is seen by many as a wingnut & therefore not worth voting for. The absolute right wing fascists & anti vaxxers which is a rump would still support him.

Which is all bullshit  but whatever.... 

[WildPath]

5 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Milliuons of Canadians despise & even hate Trudeau. They feel Trudeau is destroying this country economically & sowing the seeds of discontentment & division. They just seem to have their votes parked somewhere else or have decided not to vote at all because they don't support anyone. If the Conservatives find a leader that has some kind of broad appeal then I can see a rush to the Conservatives that would even run over the PPC as Bernier is seen by many as a wingnut & therefore not worth voting for. The absolute right wing fascists & anti vaxxers which is a rump would still support him.

You used to be a staunch Conservative voter, correct? Would you return to the party if they had the right leader? Genuinely curious.

I feel like any leader would have an incredibly difficult job uniting both elements of the party. They've fed their followers BS for years (see climate change) and they are dealing with the fall-out of a fairly divided group of voters. Like Noeller, it scares the hell out of me that they chose an interim leader who is an all-out convoy-supporting MAGA clown and they just might come to power somehow (Ontario has elected 2 Ford governments, we chose Pallister twice), but I see uniting the voters on the right as an increasingly difficult task.

Edited February 3, 2022 by WildPath

[GCn20]

2 hours ago, WildPath said:

You used to be a staunch Conservative voter, correct? Would you return to the party if they had the right leader? Genuinely curious.

I feel like any leader would have an incredibly difficult job uniting both elements of the party. They've fed their followers BS for years (see climate change) and they are dealing with the fall-out of a fairly divided group of voters. Like Noeller, it scares the hell out of me that they chose an interim leader who is an all-out convoy-supporting MAGA clown and they just might come to power somehow (Ontario has elected 2 Ford governments, we chose Pallister twice), but I see uniting the voters on the right as an increasingly difficult task.

Don't underestimate the rights ability to unite. They have done it before and the division was far greater back then. I could see a lot of CPC members returning to the fold under the right leader especially now that Trudeau fatigue has really set in for a lot of the voters that swing between CPC and Liberal. The left has tried to paint the narrative that the CPC has no chance anymore and is irrelevant but the CPC has won the popular vote the past two elections. A strong leader popular in the 905 and the Liberals will suddenly not be as entrenched as they think they are. The shine is off the Trudeau diamond and IF the CPC elect a leader that resonates a lot better than O'Toole or Scheer it could be a new government next time.

8 hours ago, Noeller said:

Which is all bullshit  but whatever.... 

Trudeau has made his own bed when it comes to trustworthiness. The Liberals need to move on from him, people just don't like him all that much anymore. Only thing saving his butt is that the CPC seems to be content to get leaders that are even less appealing thus far.

[GCn20]

10 hours ago, Noeller said:

We can dismiss these people as crazies, but I am absolutely terrified there's enough of them to get elected, as Trump did south of us. Don't dismiss them.... 

The thing about zealots is that they are the people most likely to show up and vote. In a country where voter apathy is a massive problem you are right to suggest they shouldn't be dismissed.

18 hours ago, JCon said:

It's time, once again, for the party to split. 

Maybe...but it won't. The PPC will pick up that 1-2% of wingnuts.

13 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

Harper managed to win 3 elections and had a majority in 2011 with a slightly higher percentage of the vote than JT got for his majority in 2015. Given how crazy many members of that party seem to be, the fact that he was able to hold that party together and hold power for 10 years might just show he's a genius.

Not really a genius. He just ran a tight ship and had the benefit of a strong economy. It tends to soothe the right when that happens. A lot of people on the far right tend to settle down a lot when they've got their government. Same goes with the far left I suppose. 

11 hours ago, iHeart said:

look i want to see a Manitoban run this country but NOT HER (I wonder how many people said that about Stronarch)

I think pretty much everyone said that about Stronach.

[blue_gold_84]

11 hours ago, Noeller said:

I pray you guys are right. I'm just absolutely terrified of a Trump Era, Canadian style.... I live in rural AB and they want it BAD. 

They also want RedNexit bad, despite how impractical, unrealistic, shortsighted, and outright asinine an idea it is. So, I'd say let them have their delusions; they're still a small, albeit obnoxious, minority from a national perspective.

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

Don't underestimate the rights ability to unite. They have done it before and the division was far greater back then. I could see a lot of CPC members returning to the fold under the right leader especially now that Trudeau fatigue has really set in for a lot of the voters that swing between CPC and Liberal. The left has tried to paint the narrative that the CPC has no chance anymore and is irrelevant but the CPC has won the popular vote the past two elections. A strong leader popular in the 905 and the Liberals will suddenly not be as entrenched as they think they are. The shine is off the Trudeau diamond and IF the CPC elect a leader that resonates a lot better than O'Toole or Scheer it could be a new government next time.

When was the last time the right "united" to defeat a pretty meh Liberal gov't?

And the popular vote is wholly irrelevant in Canada's electoral system. But FWIW, the LPC won more seats in 2021 than 2019; the CPC neither gained nor lost any. What isn't mentioned but should be stated for its significance is the NDP swing increased, as well as that of PPC, the latter of which doesn't bode well for moderate conservatives. 2019 was a far more successful result for the CPC and they've only become even more fractured during O'Toole's tenure. You're giving the CPC too much credit right now, IMO. Trudeau's handed them more than a few softballs since the pandemic began and they've whiffed on every last one.

Now, Bergen gets the opposition leadership reins briefly as we await yet another leadership vote (which would be three in the last five years). It's not a good look for the federal opposition, even if some are fatigued with the current PM.

Edited February 3, 2022 by blue_gold_84

[Mark F]

10 hours ago, Noeller said:

I pray you guys are right. I'm just absolutely terrified of a Trump Era, Canadian style.... I live in rural AB and they want it BAD. 

I do not think it is exaggeration  to see in these These dolts and their new sense of power, the core movement  for a fascist state.  

Mindless fervour, and hate.

The way they are treated with deference by the police is an utter disgrace.

Edited February 3, 2022 by Mark F

[blue_gold_84]

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/absolute-disgrace-ottawa-mayor-blasts-conservative-mps-for-visiting-freedom-convoy-protesters-1.5765986

Quote

Ottawa mayor Jim Watson is calling on a Conservative MP to apologize for a supportive visit to the ‘Freedom Convoy’ protesters that have been occupying downtown Ottawa since Friday.

Conservative MP Kevin Waugh tweeted that he and some of the party’s Saskatchewan caucus members wanted to show their appreciation for the truckers.

“It’s great to see Canadians championing freedom on Parliament Hill,” he tweeted Wednesday night, along with two photos. Sen. Denise Batters and former Conservative leader Andrew Scheer were among the visitors in one of the pictures.

 

Kevin Waugh shouldn't use words like hardworking and patriot when he clearly has no clue what either means.

And Andrew Scheer trying to be relevant again. LOL

Edited February 3, 2022 by blue_gold_84

[JCon]

8 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/absolute-disgrace-ottawa-mayor-blasts-conservative-mps-for-visiting-freedom-convoy-protesters-1.5765986

Kevin Waugh shouldn't use words like hardworking and patriot when he clearly no clue what either means.

And Andrew Scheer trying to be relevant again. LOL

CPC are just the PPC. The ****ing worst people imaginable. 

59 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

Maybe...but it won't. The PPC will pick up that 1-2% of wingnuts.

The wingnuts are in the CPC. They run the CPC. It's the same party. 

[Wideleft]

11 hours ago, Noeller said:

I pray you guys are right. I'm just absolutely terrified of a Trump Era, Canadian style.... I live in rural AB and they want it BAD. 

You already have the Trump era in Alberta and the rest of Canada is watching.  That's why a drift further right SHOULD prevent them from governing federally.

[blue_gold_84]

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

They also want RedNexit bad, despite how impractical, unrealistic, shortsighted, and outright asinine an idea it is. So, I'd say let them have their delusions; they're still a small, albeit obnoxious, minority from a national perspective.

When was the last time the right "united" to defeat a pretty meh Liberal gov't?

And the popular vote is wholly irrelevant in Canada's electoral system. But FWIW, the LPC won more seats in 2021 than 2019; the CPC neither gained nor lost any. What isn't mentioned but should be stated for its significance is the NDP swing increased, as well as that of PPC, the latter of which doesn't bode well for moderate conservatives. 2019 was a far more successful result for the CPC and they've only become even more fractured during O'Toole's tenure. You're giving the CPC too much credit right now, IMO. Trudeau's handed them more than a few softballs since the pandemic began and they've whiffed on every last one.

Now, Bergen gets the opposition leadership reins briefly as we await yet another leadership vote (which would be three in the last five years). It's not a good look for the federal opposition, even if some are fatigued with the current PM.

When was the last time the right united to beat the Liberals? Not long ago the right united, elected Stephen Harper as their leader and creamed the Liberals into almost obliteration in the next 3 elections....and yes...the popular vote means little to seat count...but it destroys the narrative that the CPC doesn't have support in this country. The PPC doesn't even matter no matter how loudly you bang that drum. They are a party that swung some votes in a global pandemic. When actual policy and not protest returns post pandemic they will fade away into the ether and their votes will return to the CPC. Absolutely the CPC is rudderless right now or Trudeau would be in opposition. However, like all things the longer a cringe worthy prime minister stays in power the stronger his opposition is going to get. IF, and its a big IF, the CPC manages to get it right and elect a leader that can lead and can appeal to Ontario, Trudeau's days will be numbered. The CPC is not nearly as fractured as you think they are. They just know they got it wrong with O'Toole and are hitting the reset. 

Edited February 3, 2022 by GCn20

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, JCon said:

CPC are just the PPC. The ****ing worst people imaginable. 

The wingnuts are in the CPC. They run the CPC. It's the same party. 

We shall see next election if you are right or not I guess. I have been a CPC member for many, many years and know a great deal of CPC members all of whom are very nice, upstanding, and conscientious people. But hey....paint everyone with the same brush.

[Wideleft]

The CPC has to embrace climate change policy in a meaningful way to have any chance at governing federally and their base (and donors) won't let them do that.

There is no leadership material in that stable right now that would appeal to both the base and swing voters.

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

We shall see next election if you are right or not I guess. I have been a CPC member for many, many years and know a great deal of CPC members all of whom are very nice, upstanding, and conscientious people. But hey....paint everyone with the same brush.

I guess you have to ask yourself if you still identify with the party. The party has left many people, not the other way around. But, soon, the people will leave the party. You just need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, how low can they go? 

Just now, Wideleft said:

The CPC has to embrace climate change policy in a meaningful way to have any chance at governing federally and their base (and donors) won't let them do that.

There is no leadership material in that stable right now that would appeal to both the base and swing voters.

They just rejected it climate change and want to pretend everything will be okay. They've been anti-science for at least two generations now. And, it's playing itself out in the pandemic, ignoring science. 

[HardCoreBlue]

11 minutes ago, JCon said:

I guess you have to ask yourself if you still identify with the party. The party has left many people, not the other way around. But, soon, the people will leave the party. You just need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, how low can they go? 

They just rejected it climate change and want to pretend everything will be okay. They've been anti-science for at least two generations now. And, it's playing itself out in the pandemic, ignoring science. 

And it’s probably because I’m not running in the right circles but I’m not hearing a concerted loud majority voice of these nice, upstanding, conscientious  CPC members denouncing this imbecile ‘movement’. I’m sure it’s there from a spattering of individual denouncements but not from a clear coordinated fashion that clearly distinguishes this group from that group of conservatives. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

The convoy went to Ottawa to oust the PM. Got Scheer instead, the only leader to meet with them. 

And the guy millions of Canadians supposedly despise or hate, and who was “just not ready”, has now seen the backs of 3 Conservative leaders during his tenure. 

[WildPath]

1 minute ago, HardCoreBlue said:

And it’s probably because I’m not running in the right circles but I’m not hearing a concerted loud majority voice of these nice, upstanding, conscientious  CPC members denouncing this imbecile ‘movement’. I’m sure it’s there from a spattering of individual denouncements but not from a clear coordinated fashion that clearly distinguishes this group from that group of conservatives. 

This. Most Canadians are opposed to this convoy thing and disrupting life in urban centres and border crossings is likely swaying people even farther against the cause. I'm sure the extremist language and behaviour aren't helping. The CPC response - make Candice Bergen the interim leader who has been heavy in public support for the protests. Surely the undecided voter will love that the leader of the official opposition is highly supportive of this😏

[do or die]

The rubik's cube for the next leader:

How to be right wing enough to sway the CPC caucus to vote for you as party leader.......then run successfully in a national election, as more of a moderate.

Good luck with that.....

[Tracker]

7 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

The convoy went to Ottawa to oust the PM. Got Scheer instead, the only leader to meet with them. 

And the guy millions of Canadians supposedly despise or hate, and who was “just not ready”, has now seen the backs of 3 Conservative leaders during his tenure. 

Sheer is a "leader"???? 

[GCn20]

6 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

And it’s probably because I’m not running in the right circles but I’m not hearing a concerted loud majority voice of these nice, upstanding, conscientious  CPC members denouncing this imbecile ‘movement’. I’m sure it’s there from a spattering of individual denouncements but not from a clear coordinated fashion that clearly distinguishes this group from that group of conservatives. 

The overwhelming majority of CPC supporters do not support anti-vaxxers or their mandates. There is nothing fractious about that. Some of our MPs want to step into bed with them, so be it, we are not and never have been a party that requires all MPs and all members to group think and conform in all ideologies. However, the overwhelming majority of CPC members are neither right wing zealots or wing nuts and that is what you guys on the left have a real hard time comprehending. The vast majority of CPC supporters do so because they favor a conservative approach to financial management and more and more people are starting to wake up to the Justinflation and housing bubble the Liberals have created. You think the next election is going to be fought on the narrative of social justice and pandemic management? Trudeau had better hope for a 5th, 6th and 7th wave then because when the lens goes back to his economic policies he's toast.

[Tracker]

31 minutes ago, JCon said:

I guess you have to ask yourself if you still identify with the party. The party has left many people, not the other way around. But, soon, the people will leave the party. You just need to look yourself in the mirror and ask yourself, how low can they go? 

They just rejected it climate change and want to pretend everything will be okay. They've been anti-science for at least two generations now. And, it's playing itself out in the pandemic, ignoring science. 

I suspect that many relatively sane CPC MPs and their followers are willing to countenance a far-right leader (and all the luddite policies) so long as it means that the Liberals lose. This, essentially means sacrificing principles for a shot at power. The GOP headed in that direction some 30 years ago, and look where that took them. 

[JCon]

1 minute ago, Tracker said:

I suspect that many relatively sane CPC MPs and their followers are willing to countenance a far-right leader (and all the luddite policies) so long as it means that the Liberals lose. This, essentially means sacrificing principles for a shot at power. The GOP headed in that direction some 30 years ago, and look where that took them. 

40 years ago. Reagan was the first. 

 

They can ignore history all they want but they won't govern this country with that stance. Harper realized this, which is why he lured the small "c" conservatives with tax and spending cuts. 

[Wideleft]

3 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The overwhelming majority of CPC supporters do not support anti-vaxxers or their mandates. There is nothing fractious about that. Some of our MPs want to step into bed with them, so be it, we are not and never have been a party that requires all MPs and all members to group think and conform in all ideologies. However, the overwhelming majority of CPC members are neither right wing zealots or wing nuts and that is what you guys on the left have a real hard time comprehending. The vast majority of CPC supporters do so because they favor a conservative approach to financial management and more and more people are starting to wake up to the Justinflation and housing bubble the Liberals have created. You think the next election is going to be fought on the narrative of social justice and pandemic management? Trudeau had better hope for a 5th, 6th and 7th wave then because when the lens goes back to his economic policies he's toast.

I know many conservatives having grown up in the rurals.  There are 3 main platforms that make them CPC voters:

• less restrictive gun control
• against immigration of people of colour
• a misguided notion that conservatives are better at managing the budget because they make token cuts to taxes.

[GCn20]

2 minutes ago, Tracker said:

I suspect that many relatively sane CPC MPs and their followers are willing to countenance a far-right leader (and all the luddite policies) so long as it means that the Liberals lose. This, essentially means sacrificing principles for a shot at power. The GOP headed in that direction some 30 years ago, and look where that took them. 

I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. We are not the USA, Even the extremes of the CPC membership are much more moderate than the polarization happening in the USA. It is a mistake to think that the CPC won't have a climate change policy for the next election, and it is a mistake to think that the majority of CPC members don't want one. Demonize the party if that's what helps you sleep at night but only a small portion of CPC members are at the extreme right of the spectrum.

[blue_gold_84]

12 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

When was the last time the right united to beat the Liberals? Not long ago the right united, elected Stephen Harper as their leader and creamed the Liberals into almost obliteration in the next 3 elections....and yes...the popular vote means little to seat count...but it destroys the narrative that the CPC doesn't have support in this country. The PPC doesn't even matter no matter how loudly you bang that drum. They are a party that swung some votes in a global pandemic. When actual policy and not protest returns post pandemic they will fade away into the ether and their votes will return to the CPC. Absolutely the CPC is rudderless right now or Trudeau would be in opposition. However, like all things the longer a cringe worthy prime minister stays in power the stronger his opposition is going to get. IF, and its a big IF, the CPC manages to get it right and elect a leader that can lead and can appeal to Ontario, Trudeau's days will be numbered. The CPC is not nearly as fractured as you think they are. They just know they got it wrong with O'Toole and are hitting the reset. 

2006 was pretty long ago in political terms.

Into almost obliteration...? That's not even remotely accurate, no matter how loudly you bang that drum. The LPC was weak as **** with Dion and Ignatieff as leaders but to suggest the party was nearly obliterated is an exaggeration at best.

There is no narrative saying the CPC doesn't have support in Canada and nobody implied any such thing. The CPC is still the official opposition, even with its internal problems. 

Speaking of narratives, though, your suggestion the PPC doesn't matter is pretty naïve. The PPC is still small by comparison, but its increased support from 2019 to 2021 speaks to the ongoing issues fracturing conservatives in this country, something's that only worsened in the last two years since O'Toole took on leadership and then had to resign yesterday. The pandemic ending won't necessarily make the far right fringes forget the last two years and have them run back to the party that's ostensibly let them down in that time.

I agree Trudeau's days are numbered and that his brand power has faded. However, I can't agree at all on the notion that turfing O'Toole is simply just a reset.