Canadian Politics

[Tracker]

17 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Moderates like me don't like far the right or far left. Other than politics, both aren't alternatives I want to discusss. 

In the US, you would be labeled a dangerous leftist, and in most western European countries, you would be seen as a deluded neo-Nazi.

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, Tracker said:

In the US, you would be labeled a dangerous leftist, and in most western European countries, you would be seen as a deluded neo-Nazi.

In the US, I'd be an Independent. Europe? Most governments are leftist. 

[17to85]

Deep down Harper may be a far right lunatic but he also didn't govern like that. Honestly he was a pretty do nothing prime minister to be honest.

[Mark H.]

44 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Deep down Harper may be a far right lunatic but he also didn't govern like that. Honestly he was a pretty do nothing prime minister to be honest.

Depends who you ask:

You must remember the GST cut and the cutting of transfers to the provinces.

A friend in the environmental science field, has a long list of grievances against Harper.

 

[HardCoreBlue]

As she tests the water with her kooky cockamamie knuckle dragging drivel and pulls it back by saying more clarity is needed, just another reminder to DS you were not ‘duly elected’ to sit in the premier chair of Alberta nor has any legitimate percentage of Albertans given you or will give you any trust to do anything.

Go. Away.

Edited December 3, 2022 by HardCoreBlue

[WildPath]

6 hours ago, Tracker said:

I suggest that there is far less difference between the Liberals and NDP than there is between the Reformers and old-line PCers. Moreover, both the Liberals and NDP have enough sense to compromise if the circumstances warrant- that's how we got Medicare and the Canada Pension plan, to name but two. The degree of fanaticism on the extreme right precludes any such beyond posturing some moderation for electoral purposes.

I think PP and many Conservatives realize this and adapt by making sure to be very light on policy and not allowing journalist questions. It is easier to keep a big tent supported if you are defined by what you hate rather than defined by what you represent and do everything to control your message.

[Tracker]

19 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Deep down Harper may be a far right lunatic but he also didn't govern like that. Honestly he was a pretty do nothing prime minister to be honest.

SECTION I. ABUSING PARLIAMENT: SABOTAGE, SCANDALS, CORRUPTION AND CONTEMP ‘Parliament has become so undermined that it is almost unable to do the job that people expect of it.’ Former auditor general Sheila Fraser on Harper’s omnibus bills.

Harperites Deliberately Sabotage, Stymie Committee System: Conservatives used tactics such as barring witnesses, closure, time limitations, and in camera sessions to an extent rarely, if ever, witnessed in Canada. In their early days in power, top Conservatives prepared a handbook instructing committee chairpersons how to obstruct proceedings.

Harper’s Own MPs Protest Muzzling: In a caucus known for his tight discipline, in 2014 some members finally rose up to contest being censored at question period by the Prime Minister’s Office. Former Conservative backbencher Brent Rathgeber turned independent and published a book, Irresponsible Government, decrying anti-democratic practices.

Conservative Bill Rewrites History to Protect Mounties from Potential Criminal Charges: To protect the RCMP, the government retroactively made an old bill come into force before it was passed by Parliament.

Harper Minister Caught in Advertising Scam with Public Funds: The Globe and Mail revealed that Harper’s chosen Minister for Democratic Reform Pierre1Poilievre  commissioned a team of public servants for overtime work on a Sunday to film him glad-handing constituents. The vanity video on the taxpayer dime was to promote the government’s benefits for families.

 

Corrupt Conservative Cronies: The Senate scandal is just the latest eruption of crony corruption in Harperite ranks. Take Bruce Carson. He was a convicted fraudster before Harper made him a key advisor in the PMO. There, Carson was lobbied for money for a new University of Calgary eco-think tank. He then left the PMO to run the same think tank, converting it to an oil industry booster with a $15-million grant from the Harper government. The complex saga added one more criminal charge to others Carson faces for allegedly illegally working his connections with the Harper government.

Access to Information System Impeded: Many new roadblocks have been put up by the Harper Conservatives. Former Information Commissioner Robert Marleau concluded that having obtained absolute power, the prime minister “has absolutely abused that power to the maximum.”

The Silencing of the Public Service: The PMO took an unprecedented step in instituting a system wherein the bureaucracy has all its communications vetted by the political nerve centre. The policy contribution role of the public service is significantly reduced. Complaints from insiders allege that the Privy Council office has become increasingly politicized.

Loyalty Oaths Imposed on Public Servants: Archivists and librarians were made to swear strict oaths of allegiance and were hit with restrictions on freedom of speech that editorialists of the right and left described as chilling.

Harper Government Sued by Justice Department Whistleblower: Time and again the Harper government proposes bills that end up being shot down by the courts, prompting critics to say such legislation is more about making political statements than lasting policy.

The wasted efforts bothered senior justice department lawyer Edgar Schmidt so much he finally sued the government for breaking the law by inadequately evaluating whether proposed bills violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He was promptly suspended without pay.

Conservatives Block Accreditation for Opposition Mps; In another example of partisanship taken to new heights, the PMO blocked opposition members from being accredited for international environment conferences and from visiting military bases.

Tactic Borrowed from North Korea’s Dear Leader: Ostensibly neutral public servants were used as stooges, falsely posing as new citizens in a staged Citizenship Renewal public relations exercise by the Immigration Department. Media critics had a field day comparing the charade to practices undertaken by North Korean dictators.

Clampdown on Freedom of Speech of Diplomatic Corps: Ottawa’s diplomats must get all communications approved from Conservative political operatives. Under Harper, the country’s ambassadors are hardly heard from any more. In a recent speech, former United Nations ambassador Stephen Lewis said our political culture under the Conservatives has descended into “a nadir of indignity.”

Aquatic Science Libraries Decimated: The Harper government’s downsizing of federal libraries included sudden closing of seven world famous Department of Fisheries and Oceans archives. A leaked memo revealed the destruction and consolidation would save less than half a million dollars. Scientist patrons of the libraries, who witnessed chaotic chucking of rare literature, called it a “book burning” with no logical purpose other than to restrict environmental information. The Harper government claimed vital works would be digitally preserved, but never provided a plan or cost for doing so, nor any proof it had happened. No scientists interviewed by The Tyee believed digitizing would or could replace what was lost.

UN Blasts Canada’s Treatment of Immigrants: Changes made to the Canada’s immigration and refugee system under Harper were investigated by the United Nations Human Rights Committee, whose report blasted how thousands of migrants are detained indefinitely without due process, many for over a year or more, as well as poor mental health support for those incarcerated.

Harper Government Denies Khadr Basic Rights: Defying court rulings, the Conservative government refused to accord Omar Khadr basic rights such as access to media. Editorialists of right and left persuasion described the move as unbefitting a democratic government.

Illegitimate Prorogation of Parliament, Twice: Prorogations are a legitimate procedure that can be abused depending on motivations. The Harper government provoked 60 protests across Canada and beyond its borders in 2010 after shutting the legislature’s doors to escape condemnation on the Afghan detainees’ file. It was the second prorogation in a year’s period.

Undue Interference with Independent Agencies: Command and control system was extended to meddling in bodies like National Energy Board and CRTC whose arms-length autonomy is significantly reduced. A special target was the Parliamentary Budget Office, which was hit with condemnations and budget cuts for its critical reports.

Billions Borrowed without Parliament’s Permission: The auditor general sounded alarms about the “prodigious” growth and size of federal borrowing. Those billions in “non-budgetary” spending used to get Parliament’s oversight, but no more.

The finance minister can borrow what he wants without Parliament’s permission. Why? A loophole buried in a 2007 Harper omnibus bill.

Lapdogs Appointed as Watchdogs: The most controversial was the case of former Integrity Commissioner Christiane Ouimet. Her office reviewed more than 200 whistleblowing cases. Disciplinary action followed on none of them. Ouimet’s own angry staffers blew the whistle on their boss. The auditor general found Ouimet intimidated her employees, took “retaliatory action” against them and may have breached their privacy, all part of the Harper appointee’s “gross mismanagement.” Ouimet was paid more than $500,000 to leave her post.

SECTION II: ‘HARPER BRAND’ ABUSES: LIES, SPIES, AND THIS PORK SMELLS REALLY BAD

This election began the minute the last one ended. Since his first day as PM, Stephen Harper has reinforced his party’s ‘brand’ by rewarding cronies, slapping the Conservative logo on government cheques, perfecting the no questions photo-op, instructing bureaucrats to start calling Canada’s government “the Harper Government.” The flip side has been relentless monitoring, muzzling and attacks on anyone who might tarnish the image. Here are 22 instances of power abused to build the Harper brand.

PMO Attempts to Cover up Video Leak Putting Troops at Risk: On an Iraq visit, the PMO was caught lying to try and cover up the leak of a promo video, which constituted a security breach. The PMO, noted a National Post editorial, “stumbled from blunder to evasion and falsehood in the service of shamelessly manipulative partisanship, especially in using our troops as PR props.”

 

The ‘Harper Government’ Labelling Deception: Public servants were told to use “Harper Government” instead of “Government of Canada” in publicity releases. The Conservatives denied it was happening -- until internal memos revealed by the Canadian Press revealed the denial to be without basis.

Conservatives Place Party Logos on Government of Canada Cheques: Once “caught red-handed,” they backed off. The federal ethics commissioner, adopting the exasperated tone of an adult lecturing a child, noted: “Public spending announcements are government activities, not partisan political activities, and it is not appropriate to brand them with partisan or personal identifiers.”

Record Amounts of Partisan Political Advertising, on the Public Purse:

Several media reports told how the Conservatives used taxpayer money for partisan political advertising in record quantity, costing the public treasury $750 million since Harper became PM. In one instance, the Tories spent lavishly on ads for the promotion of a jobs grant program that had yet to be made public or presented to parliament or the provinces. Even more nakedly partisan, a mailed blast, charged to the taxpayers, targeting Justin Trudeau.

Conservatives Stack Their Own Ridings with Infrastructure Funds:

In a display of brazen pork barreling, the Conservatives arranged for no less than 83 percent of infrastructure fund projects go to Conservative ridings.

 

 

 

$50 Million Spending Deception as Documented by the Auditor General

The auditor general ruled Conservatives diverted $50-million from spending slated for border infrastructure to political spending on projects in Tony Clement’s riding at the time of the G-8 summit. Parliament was willfully misled.

Patronage Run Amok: After promising a new way, the prime minister dismantled his newly created Public Appointments Commission and reverted to old-styled patronage by the barrel. In June 2015, the PM made 98 patronage appointments. That included stocking the National Capital Commission with loyalists in advance of decisions on the controversial monument to the victims of communism.

Undermining Statistics Canada, Killing Data: Against pleas from everyone who needs and uses data from the long form census, the Harper government scrapped it, prompting the Statistics Canada chief to resign in protest.

Government Muzzles Science Community: Top scientists came under such heavy monitoring by the Conservatives that they staged “Death of Evidence” protests for being denied freedom of speech. The Conservatives sent out chaperones or “media minders” to track Environment Canada scientists and report on them.

 ‘Death of Evidence’ rally on Parliament Hill, July 10, 2012. Photo: Richard Webster.

Like Never Before, Limits Placed on Media Access

Journalists have been hard-pressed to recall another time when controls put on them were so tight.

At the Conservatives’ 2013 Calgary convention, reporters wrote of being harassed and penned in at every turn by the PMO’s command and control system.

In his book Killing The Messenger, journalist Mark Bourrie charts the many examples of new limits on freedom of speech introduced in the Harper era.

Harper’s Team Tries to Ban Journalist for Asking Question: Veteran TV cameraman Dave Ellis covered a Harper speech about oil to a business audience. Though media had been instructed no questions allowed, Ellis posed one about charges laid against a Conservative MP. The PMO tried to punish Ellis and his network by kicking him off covering Harper’s trip to Malaysia. After media hue and cry, Harper backed down and Ellis went.

Harper Minister Sucker Punches CBC Budget: After the 2011 federal election Heritage Minister James Moore assured Conservatives would “maintain or increase support for the CBC. That is our platform and we have said that before and we will commit to that.” The next year, Harper’s Cons delivered the biggest government cut to CBC since the mid-1990s, much deeper in proportion than overall trims to federal programs, defying public sentiment.

Suppression of Research: In the gun registration debate, incriminating research and documents such as a Firearms Report were deliberately withheld from the public. While ramping up their prison building, Conservatives suppressed related research and studies contradicting their political priorities.

The Vic Toews Porno Smear: In a vivid example of the browbeating of opponents, the minister of public safety said anyone who opposed federal plans to make electronic surveillance of Canadians easier for authorities was siding with child pornographers.

 

 

Harper’s Fallen Soldiers Blackout: Emulating George W. Bush’s optics tactics, Stephen Harper banned media coverage of fallen soldiers’ caskets returning from Afghanistan. He also refused to lower the flag half-mast. Soldiers’ family members expressed confusion and anger at the perceived show of disrespect.

Protesters Put under Blanket Surveillance: According to a leaked memo, as part of its command and control approach, the Conservatives have approved a system wherein all advocates, protesters and demonstrations can be monitored by authorities. The Government Operations Centre has requested federal departments to assist it in compiling a comprehensive inventory of protesters. Security specialists have called it a breach of Canadians’ Charter of Rights. Conservatives have moved to give CSIS even more powers than the spy agency wants.

Rights and Democracy, Other Groups, Dismantled: In a show of brute force, the Montreal-based group Rights and Democracy was pole-axed for its alleged political leanings and eventually disbanded. Organizations like the church group Kairos were de-budgeted or dismantled for political leanings. Nuclear Safety Commission head Linda Keen was dumped. Among the complaints cited by the PM was that in her distant past, she had some Liberal ties.

Harper Government Spied on Aboriginal Critic, ‘Retaliated’: Aboriginal child welfare advocate Cindy Blackstock was spied on by the Harper government, and when she arrived for a meeting with other First Nations leaders at the Ministry of Aboriginal Affairs only she was barred entry. Finding Blackstock had been “retaliated” against by a ministry official, the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal awarded her $20,000 for pain and suffering.

 

Revenue Canada Loosed to Attack Charities: Not all charities, just the ones that don’t seem adequately aligned with the Harper brand. Enough to include many environmental, aid, human rights and free speech charities that banded together to push back against what looks like a politically motivated witch hunt.

Conservatives Use Unheard of Tactic to Force through Anti-Union Bill:

Conservative senators went to the unprecedented extent of overruling their own Speaker. What could be so important to break Senate rules? A bill pushed by Harper that is almost certainly unconstitutional for its privacy invading measures forced onto unions, unlike other groups. Latest in a steady stream of Conservative attacks on organized labour in Canada.

Harper Smears Liberal Sikh MP, Insinuating Tie to Terrorism: When Liberals opposed a 2007 Conservative plan to extend anti-terror legislation, Stephen Harper singled out Grit MP Navdeep Bains, seeming to suggest that Bains’ party was motivated by a desire to protect Bains’ father-in-law, Darshan Singh Saini. A recent news story had claimed Singh Saini was on a list of witnesses sought by the RCMP for its Air India investigation, but provided no proof he was involved. In the House, Liberals erupted with outrage and Bains asked, in vain, that Harper apologize.

Veterans’ Advocates Smeared: Medical files of Sean Bruyea, a strong advocate for veterans’ rights, were leaked in a case that privacy commissioner Jennifer Stoddart described as “alarming.” Veterans Affairs Canada ombudsman Pat Stogran was dumped after criticizing the government.

 

SECTION III: ELECTION ABUSES: SCAMS, SLIMES, STINGS AND CROOKED SPENDING: Stephen Harper’s Conservatives have made federal elections a gladiators’ arena where anything goes -- unless and until you are caught, that is. Here are 17 times his team violated election laws or ethics.

Conservatives Run Undercover Sting Operations: Conservatives secretly recorded political opponents and also used agent provocateur techniques to try and entrap them. A sting operation against Marlo Raynolds, a Liberal candidate in Alberta, was backed by then employment minister Jason Kenney.

Conservative Convicted on Robocalls Scam: Tory operative Michael Sona was given jail time for his role in the robocalls scam. The judge indicated more than one person was likely involved. In another court judgment in a case brought by the Council of Canadians, the ruling said the robocalls operation was widespread, not just limited to the Guelph riding. Donald Segretti who did dirty tricks for the Nixon White House told a Canadian reporter his skullduggery didn’t go so low as to run schemes sending voters to the wrong polling stations.

Harper’s Ex-Parliamentary Secretary Jailed for Breaking Election Law

Dean Del Maestro was one of Harper’s favourites. As his parliamentary secretary, the PM frequently used him as an attack dog to allege misdeeds by opposition members. Del Maestro was given a jail sentence in June for his own election spending violations.

‘Reprehensible’ Dirty Tricks Campaign against Irwin Cotler: Conservative Commons Speaker Andrew Scheer ruled his party’s own tactics in running a surreptitious misinformation campaign in the riding of the highly respected MP were “reprehensible.”

 

Conservatives Bar Crosbie Candidacy: In a clear-cut case of the party hierarchy’s undercutting of democratic rights, Ches Crosbie, son of former Tory cabinet minister John Crosbie, was barred from running for the party in Newfoundland.

Election Violations Prompt Resignation of Cabinet Member: Peter Penashue, another Harper Conservative was compelled to step down over election spending violations.

Conservatives Attempt Election Campaign Frame-up: In an attempted smear in the last week of the 2011 election campaign, a senior Harper strategist planted a false story in Sun Media that Michael Ignatieff was an Iraq war planner. (Neither Conservative operatives nor Sun Media opted to make hay with the true story that Stephen Harper had, while leader of the Canadian Alliance in 2003, published a letter in The Wall Street Journal itching to get Canada into that disastrous war and slamming then PM Jean Chretien for saying no.)

Harper’s Office Deploys Interns for Dirty Tricks: In one instance that brought on allegations of Nixonian tactics, junior PMO staffers in the guise of normal citizens were sent out to disrupt a Justin Trudeau speech.

Citizens Ejected from Conservative Rallies: Tory operatives hauled out citizens from a Harper rally in the 2011 campaign because they had marginal ties to other parties. A spokesperson for the PM was compelled to apologize. Problem fixed this time around: Only fully vetted Harper supporters will be allowed, by invite only, to attend the PM’s campaign stops. If they have a ticket.

 

Conservatives Make Campaign Event Attendees Sign Gag Order: Not only have Harper’s campaign handlers made his campaign events by invite only, they were forcing anyone let in to sign an agreement not to transmit any description of the event or any images from it -- but dropped the gag orders after news stories made them an issue.

Conservatives Unfix Their Own Fixed Date Election Law: In 2008, Harper pulled the plug on his own government, violating his own new law, which stipulated elections every four years.

Guilty Plea on In and Out Affair: The Conservative Party and its fundraising arm pled guilty to some Elections Act charges stemming from their exceeding spending limits in the 2006 campaign. The investigation cost taxpayers over $2 million.

Cons’ Elections Bill Strips Power from Elections Canada: The Fair Elections Act also makes it harder for Canadians to vote as more ID is required. Nationwide protests in which more than 400 academics took part forced Pierre Poilievre to withdraw some measures in the bill because of their alleged anti-democratic bent.

Harper Minister Smears Head of Elections Canada: In a bid to impugn his integrity, Democratic Reform Minister Pierre Poilievre accused the Elections Canada CEO Marc Mayrand of being a power monger and wearing a team jersey.

Copyright Grab for Attack Ads: CTV News found out Conservatives aimed to rewrite copyright law to let political parties grab any media content and use it for free in their ads.

The impact, warned CTV’s Don Martin, “will be to cast a chill on every broadcast appearance” by MPs, commentators and reporters, who “must now be aware their views could end up featured in a political attack ad.” By asserting “unlimited access to the airwaves for propaganda purposes,” Martin said, the Harper government “could be seen as flirting with fascism.”

Conservatives Use Terrorists’ Propaganda in Attack Ad: Harper’s party created a political ad incorporating music and horrifying images of doomed captives pulled straight from the Islamic State’s own promotional video. The target: Justin Trudeau, whose views on the risks and rewards of bombing ISIS differ from Harper’s.

Record Use of Personal Attack Ads: Under Harper’s leadership, Conservatives became the first to routinely use personal attacks ads outside an election writ period. Their ads often used quotes deliberately taken out of context. Incidence of attack ads by Harper Conservatives was heavier than by any other government.

 

This section includes examples of willful misgoverning by the PM and his team, 31 times they have lied, flouted rules and stymied democracy to achieve political and ideological ends.

 

PMO Tied to Senate Hush Money Scandal: An RCMP affidavit reported widespread involvement by PMO staffers in a secret payment to Senator Mike Duffy to try and make a political problem go away. The Senate expenses scandal brought on allegations of a cover-up, a breach of the public trust, and a whitewashing of a Senate report. The PMO was found to have hand in the altering of a damning Deloitte audit.

Harper Found in Contempt of Parliament: For refusing to disclose information on the costing of programs to Parliament, which Parliament was entitled to receive, the Harper government became the first in Canadian history to be found in contempt of Parliament.

Against Court Order, Refusal to Share Budget Info: Even though it lost a court case and was ordered to comply, the Harper government nevertheless refused to share 170 times reasons and impacts for cuts with Canada’s independent budget watchdog, mocking Parliament’s right to control the public purse.

Conservative Cabinet Staffers Granted Immunity from Testimony: A PMO edict absolved political staffers from ever having to testify before parliamentary committees.

Conservatives Falsify Reports and Documents: Among documents deliberately altered in the writing or the quoting by the government: CIDA document by Bev Oda’s office on Kairos; the Senate Committee Report on the Duffy affair; a report by former auditor general Sheila Fraser on financial management.

Repeated Duplicity in Afghan Detainees Controversy: Among the abuses: Parliament was misled and denied documents. An inquiry was shut down. Tories attempted to discredit diplomat Richard Colvin whose testimony diverted from the government’s line.

Repeated Duplicity on Costing of F-35 Fighter Jets: An auditor general’s report revealed serial deceptive practices used by the Conservatives in misleading the public and Parliament on the projected cost of the fighter jets.

Harper Minister Lies, Blames Statistics Canada for Killing Long Form Census:

Under fire for Conservatives killing the long form census, Industry Minister Tony Clement falsely stated that StatsCan backed the idea and assured the voluntary substitute would yield valid statistical data. Neither was true, outraged StatsCan sources confirmed.

Conservative MP Admits He Lied to Parliament: As opposition members claimed the Harper government was out to rig election rules in its favour, Conservative MP Brad Butt rose in the House of Commons to say why the bill was needed -- all the voter fraud he had personally witnessed. Weeks later he rose again to say his statements were false. Delivering his strained apology, he failed to explain why he lied in the first place.

Conservative House Leader Admits to Mockery of Question Period: Criticized far and wide for farcical answers in question period, Paul Calandra, parliamentary secretary to Harper, made a tearful apology for abuse of the democratic process.

 

Harper Maligns the Supreme Court Chief Justice: The Prime Minister took the unprecedented step of alleging inappropriate conduct by Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin. Facts undermined the credibility of the PM’s position.

Conservatives Engage in Abuse of Process with Omnibus Bills: Harper’s party pushed legislation through Parliament via omnibus bills, the scale of which Parliament had never seen. Such bills are widely condemned as an abuse of the democratic process, because they blend and bury so many controversial laws within one dense package. Harper himself once railed against them, and his born again love for them made his own MPs queasy. Referencing such bills, former auditor general Sheila Fraser said that “Parliament has become so undermined that it is almost unable to do the job that people expect of it.”

[Noeller]

Jeeze, when it's all laid out like that. Man oh man. 

The two biggest things that always stick with me from his reign were 1) the silencing of scientists. Federal scientists being forbidden to talk about pretty much anything. And 2) Wanting to shut down the Experimental Lakes Area by Kenora to save a measly 2 million bucks, despite the great work they were doing. 

The guy was just such an unlikelable *******. 

[Mark H.]

Not sure if this is included in that info, but he also cut the PFRA program

One of the few things that was curbing deforestation on the prairies

 

[GCn20]

On 2022-12-02 at 3:11 PM, JCon said:

We are definitely not a two-party federal system. And, there are plenty of old small-C conservatives that vote Liberal but would never if they adopted more NDP policies. Eliminating the third party would push us towards the failed-state US system. 

Exactly right.

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

Jeeze, when it's all laid out like that. Man oh man. 

The two biggest things that always stick with me from his reign were 1) the silencing of scientists. Federal scientists being forbidden to talk about pretty much anything. And 2) Wanting to shut down the Experimental Lakes Area by Kenora to save a measly 2 million bucks, despite the great work they were doing. 

The guy was just such an unlikelable *******. 

And he paid for it at the polls. It's such a red herring to dig up previous governments follies from close to a decade ago. The voters have spoken on that already.

[Mark H.]

The end result was:

The Liberals went from 34 seats & third party status, back to a majority.

[Wideleft]

On 2022-12-03 at 2:49 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

Moderates like me don't like far the right or far left. Other than politics, both aren't alternatives I want to discusss. 

The thing is, the way the Conservatives govern hasn't changed.  They're just more open (and proud) about being cruel and angry now.

[SpeedFlex27]

20 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

The thing is, the way the Conservatives govern hasn't changed.  They're just more open (and proud) about being cruel and angry now.

I'm disgusted at the way things are now. Completely disenfranchised. 

[Wideleft]

On 2022-12-03 at 3:12 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

In the US, I'd be an Independent. Europe? Most governments are leftist. 

?????

England - Conservative

France - Conservative

Sweden - Liberal-Conservative (governs like Conservatives)

Italy - Far right wannabe fascist

Austria - Conservative

Croatia - Conservative

Czech Republic - Conservative

Greece - Centre-right

Hungary - Far-right

Iceland - Liberal-Conservative

Ireland - Conservative

Latvia - Liberal-Conservative

Lichtenstein - Liberal-Conservative

Lithuania - Centre-Right

Moldova - Centre-Right

Netherlands - Centre-Right

Slovakia - Conservative

Switzerland - Conservative-Nationalist

Ukraine - Liberal-Centrist

Northern Ireland - Conservative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ruling_political_parties_by_country

 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, Wideleft said:

?????

England - Conservative

France - Conservative

Sweden - Liberal-Conservative (governs like Conservatives)

Italy - Far right wannabe fascist

Austria - Conservative

Croatia - Conservative

Czech Republic - Conservative

Greece - Centre-right

Hungary - Far-right

Iceland - Liberal-Conservative

Ireland - Conservative

Latvia - Liberal-Conservative

Lichtenstein - Liberal-Conservative

Lithuania - Centre-Right

Moldova - Centre-Right

Netherlands - Centre-Right

Slovakia - Conservative

Switzerland - Conservative-Nationalist

Ukraine - Liberal-Centrist

Northern Ireland - Conservative

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ruling_political_parties_by_country

 

There's no way Macron or his government is conservative. The French voted for Macron & his Rennaisance Party as a reaction in the runoff election to marine Le Penn, the far alt right Presidential candidate. Even though he won, the runoff election, the French for the most part hate the guy. He was looked upon as the lesser of 2 evils.

Half to 3/4 of those governments mentioned have leftist ideas when it comes to finance, government interference in Euro citizens daily lives (not talking vaccine madates, either) & climate change. 

[Wideleft]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

There's no way Macron or his government is conservative. The French voted for Macron & his Rennaisance Party as a reaction in the runoff election to marine Le Penn, the far alt right Presidential candidate. Even though he won, the runoff election, the French for the most part hate the guy. He was looked upon as the lesser of 2 evils.

Half to 3/4 of those governments mentioned have leftist ideas when it comes to finance, government interference in Euro citizens daily lives (not talking vaccine madates, either) & climate change. 

Macron is a Conservative.

Voters in all those democratic countries had an option to vote further left or right.  Just because Scandinavia has far better social programs than us doesn't mean they don't have a further left (or right) option either.

What does government interference in climate change mean?

[SpeedFlex27]

19 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

Macron is a Conservative.

Voters in all those democratic countries had an option to vote further left or right.  Just because Scandinavia has far better social programs than us doesn't mean they don't have a further left (or right) option either.

What does government interference in climate change mean?

If Macrion is a conservative then Pollievre is a Liberal. Sources have described the Rennaissance Party as centrist, center-right & "Big Tent". Macron has described the Rennaissance Party as being a progressive party of the left & right. Observers & political commentators have described the party as being socially liberal as well as economically liberal in ideology.

Sounds like a Brian Mulroney Progressive Conservative "Big Tent" coalition of Conseervativest & left (NDP) along with separatists (mostly in Quebec) during the mid 1980's. That coalition lasted 2 elections & started crumbling almost immediately. Pierre Bouchard stuck a fork in it in 1990. 

Edited December 5, 2022 by SpeedFlex27

[HardCoreBlue]

1 hour ago, Wideleft said:

The thing is, the way the Conservatives govern hasn't changed.  They're just more open (and proud) about being cruel and angry now.

That's their platform plain and simple following Trump and his enablers to a tee.

[Wideleft]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

If Macrion is a conservative then Pollievre is a Liberal. Macron's not my idea of what a true Conservative leader should be. Sources have described the Rennaissance Party as centrist, center-right & "Big Tent". Macron has described the Rennaissance Party as being a progressive party of the left & right. Observers & political commentators have described the party as being socially liberal as well as economically liberal in ideology.

Sounds like a Brian Mulroney Progressive Conservative coalition of the far right & left along with separatists (mostly in Quebec) during the mid 1980's. That coalition lasted 2 elections & started crumbling almost immediately. Pierre Bouchard stuck a fork in it in 1990. 

You are confusing "economically liberal" with neo-liberalism.  

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, Wideleft said:

You are confusing "economically liberal" with neo-liberalism.  

That is a very interesting premise. Thank you. I have to digest that a bit. 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

3 hours ago, Wideleft said:

Ukraine - Liberal-Centrist

Nazis get voted out there?

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by FrostyWinnipeg

[Tracker]

3 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Nazis get voted out there?

 

Not just Nazis- they are also Satanist Nazis. running Ukraine, according to Putin.

[GCn20]

5 hours ago, Wideleft said:

The thing is, the way the Conservatives govern hasn't changed.  They're just more open (and proud) about being cruel and angry now.

I would hope any government learns from being tossed out of office. If not, Manitoba is in real trouble when the NDP win the next election.

Disagree all you want WL, but the fact of the matter is that the last NDP government we had was terrible. I am willing to choke on my own political beliefs to give them another chance because the Tories are not good right now and I believe parties can learn from defeat. If I thought for one second that the Manitoba NDP now was the same party as then, there is no way in the world I would vote for them and I suspect neither would a lot of Manitobans. 

[GCn20]

21 hours ago, Mark H. said:

The end result was:

The Liberals went from 34 seats & third party status, back to a majority.

They certainly rebounded from the Ignatieff, Dion years. I strongly believe that turnover of government is a good thing, so I applaud their renaissance as the NDP are not fit to rule imo.

5 hours ago, Wideleft said:

The thing is, the way the Conservatives govern hasn't changed.  They're just more open (and proud) about being cruel and angry now.

Cruel...I disagree. Angry...for sure...with good reason imo. I am absolutely seething with the Liberal government right now who have included one of my bolt action long rifles and two of my hunting shotguns on the list for c-21. Believe me....they are going to get decimated in rural Canada for this and I will never give up these guns. They will have to take a treaty Indian to court and prosecute him for owning hunting rifles.

Edited December 5, 2022 by GCn20

[Wideleft]

1 hour ago, GCn20 said:

They certainly rebounded from the Ignatieff, Dion years. I strongly believe that turnover of government is a good thing, so I applaud their renaissance as the NDP are not fit to rule imo.

Cruel...I disagree. Angry...for sure...with good reason imo. I am absolutely seething with the Liberal government right now who have included one of my bolt action long rifles and two of my hunting shotguns on the list for c-21. Believe me....they are going to get decimated in rural Canada for this and I will never give up these guns. They will have to take a treaty Indian to court and prosecute him for owning hunting rifles.

Let's just do Manitoba: