Canadian Politics

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Not directly. She was the ruling monarch at the time of the creation of this country and IIRC, gave royal assent to the Indian Act in 1876. I can only assume protesters who tore down the statue last week were motivated to do so by associating her rule with the history of residential schools. Since when has vandalism of public property ever been productive, though? It's just childish and nonsensical, IMO.

Tearing statues accomplishes basically the same thing as erecting them: virtually nothing of any worthwhile or positive importance. I'd even argue the former act causes further harm to an already tense and heated situation.

Why does it HAVE to accomplish something though? Is it not good enough that we removed a monument to a person who headed a state led genocide? She was the leader of a system that helped kill/rape/etc etc etc children for christ sake. I honestly don't understand how people don't see the pain behind the actions. If my children are killed, I'm doing everything I can for the rest of my life to destroy the person responsible. This is just a part of mourning, sometimes you break ****. **** the queen, **** that statue.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Monarchy forever!

[Mark H.]

Since we are on this topic...some of you may have read this on my FB. If I am Max in this story...I do think I'd feel taking down a statue or two.

The following was written by Elsa Baer Maendel - a resident of Fairholme Hutterite Colony - located southwest of Portage la Prairie

Max Merrick and Paul Baer 

My dad was a mechanic at New Rosedale Colony, a big hearted one who would fix anything for anyone! 

Indigenous people from nearby Long Plain First Nations would come to his shop to get their tires changed or a motor fixed. The colony ladies would walk to his shop to have their lawn mowers fixed. He would drop everything to help and you'd get a good joke on your way out. 

My dad would invite his Indigenous friends home for coffee. Hutterites have a 3:00 coffee break where the table is loaded with pastries and snacks. Some of the names I remember are: Ronnie Woods, Lloyd Woods and Max Merrick. They had such a wonderful sense of humor and our family had many laughs with them! 

My parents had 9 kids, with some of them married already, so you can imagine the scene everyone at the kitchen table eating and talking, around one Indigenous guy telling stories. 
Max Merrick came pretty much every day, and our fellow New Rosedalers took to dubbing him 'Max Baer' He was my dad’s friend. We would go to his house to watch news on his big TV when there was an important event such as the Stanley Cup Final or 9/11. He would come to dad’s shop every day, and go to Portage for parts if they were needed at the shop. 

I remember Max telling us about going to residential school. He told us about watching some older boys who had tried to run away. They were brought back and received a good 'licken' and it cured him of trying the same thing. 

He told us his mother died while he was at school and he wasn't told until he came home for the summer and found her gone. He often told us this story and we could still feel “begreif” his hurt. I can only imagine the anticipation of seeing his mom, and then the pain of finding out she had died. 

I never realized how big the scope of residential schools was and how many children were simply taken from their parents, off to boarding school. What if it was my child? What if it wasn't what I wanted for my children's future? To be taken away from my arms, to be beaten just for speaking German or Hutterisch. What must it have been like for countless children to lie awake in a strange dorm bed crying for their parents night after night, and not receiving attention if they weren’t feeling well. 

I’m a helicopter parent if my children have an ordinary flu or cough. I make sure they get enough fluids, popsicles, ginger ale, comfy blankets, and I rub their back and throats with good oils. What if my children passed away, far from home, while being sick in a strange boarding school, receiving no attention, medical or otherwise? I cannot imagine that my heart could ever recover if this was my child. 

All those Indigenous friends of my dad were the same age he was. And while both my parents are alive and well at 78, all his Indigenous friends passed away a long time ago. 

That's no accident. That's what trauma does to people. It kills them young.

Elsa Baer Maendel
Fairholme 2021
In loving memory of Max Merrick

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

Why does it HAVE to accomplish something though? Is it not good enough that we removed a monument to a person who headed a state led genocide? She was the leader of a system that helped kill/rape/etc etc etc children for christ sake. I honestly don't understand how people don't see the pain behind the actions. If my children are killed, I'm doing everything I can for the rest of my life to destroy the person responsible. This is just a part of mourning, sometimes you break ****. **** the queen, **** that statue.

Hey if we start tearing down statues of historical figures who were leaders when atrocities happened we're going to have a hell of a lot of statues to tear down. The world is still an ugly place and it was even uglier in the past. We have to keep that in mind when totally condemning people. We are better served trying to heal those wounds than hold people who are long gone accountable.

[Tracker]

42 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Hey if we start tearing down statues of historical figures who were leaders when atrocities happened we're going to have a hell of a lot of statues to tear down. The world is still an ugly place and it was even uglier in the past. We have to keep that in mind when totally condemning people. We are better served trying to heal those wounds than hold people who are long gone accountable.

Sooo.... there is a rationale for leaving statues of Adolph Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini (to name a few) up in public view?

[Bigblue204]

51 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Hey if we start tearing down statues of historical figures who were leaders when atrocities happened we're going to have a hell of a lot of statues to tear down. The world is still an ugly place and it was even uglier in the past. We have to keep that in mind when totally condemning people. We are better served trying to heal those wounds than hold people who are long gone accountable.

Yeah, we should really get on with it and bring those ******* things down. It's not hard to figure out. If you were involved in genocide or child rape/murder/kidnapping etc you don't deserve a monument. Bringing those down isn't about holding someone accountable. It's about NOT glorifying them for their unspeakable acts. 

Honestly I just don't get what people are so upset by? What will it take if dead children don't do it for you? Why are people so defensive of a ***** of person and a system that she headed?

Edited July 6, 2021 by Bigblue204

[Mark H.]

Reading all the posts here and on other social media, I am continually astonished that two individuals continue to slide under the radar: William Lyon MacKenzie King and Wilfred Laurier. 

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Tracker said:

Sooo.... there is a rationale for leaving statues of Adolph Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini (to name a few) up in public view?

 

                               

[Wideleft]

4 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

Why does it HAVE to accomplish something though? Is it not good enough that we removed a monument to a person who headed a state led genocide? She was the leader of a system that helped kill/rape/etc etc etc children for christ sake. I honestly don't understand how people don't see the pain behind the actions. If my children are killed, I'm doing everything I can for the rest of my life to destroy the person responsible. This is just a part of mourning, sometimes you break ****. **** the queen, **** that statue.

And we haven't even talked about what the British Empire did to other Peoples on other continents.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

Reading all the posts here and on other social media, I am continually astonished that two individuals continue to slide under the radar: William Lyon MacKenzie King and Wilfred Laurier. 

And they were not alone.

6 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

And we haven't even talked about what the British Empire did to other Peoples on other continents.

This does not exonerate the Canadian politicians and religious leaders or the British in any way, but pretty much all invading/occupying forces (not just armies) have done much the same. It seems to be a tragic fact that humans are not only capable of doing such things, but willing and eager to so so.

[Wideleft]

15 minutes ago, Tracker said:

And they were not alone.

This does not exonerate the Canadian politicians and religious leaders or the British in any way, but pretty much all invading/occupying forces (not just armies) have done much the same. It seems to be a tragic fact that humans are not only capable of doing such things, but willing and eager to so so.

Agreed.  Just wanted to kick Queen Victoria while she was still down.  I think she's still down.

[17to85]

2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

Yeah, we should really get on with it and bring those ******* things down. It's not hard to figure out. If you were involved in genocide or child rape/murder/kidnapping etc you don't deserve a monument. Bringing those down isn't about holding someone accountable. It's about NOT glorifying them for their unspeakable acts. 

Honestly I just don't get what people are so upset by? What will it take if dead children don't do it for you? Why are people so defensive of a ***** of person and a system that she headed?

It's history, and you can't erase history and in fact erasing history is just a bad idea. What's the saying? Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Use it as a teaching tool. These are the people who were leaders, this is the good they did and this is the bad. Often times the bad was not as socially unacceptable at the time. In 150 people are going to look back at us now and cluck their tongues and wonder WTF was wrong with us. 

[Mark H.]

27 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's history, and you can't erase history and in fact erasing history is just a bad idea. What's the saying? Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Use it as a teaching tool. These are the people who were leaders, this is the good they did and this is the bad. Often times the bad was not as socially unacceptable at the time. In 150 people are going to look back at us now and cluck their tongues and wonder WTF was wrong with us. 

I have taught Canadian History for greater part of my teaching career.  Statues are not what history is about. You will find 1000 times more depth and richness in, for example, a local cemetery. Queen Victoria cannot be erased by toppling her statue, nor should or will her history be erased. 

[Mark F]

47 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's history, and you can't erase history and in fact erasing history is just a bad idea.

 

a place of honour at the legislature is for people who deserve to be honoured.

removing a statue does not "erase history"

 

 

16 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

You will find 1000 times more depth and richness in, for example, a local cemetery

agree. like  the small local cemeteries in every little prairie town.

Chief Peguis grave is in a cemetery just North of East Selkirk. there are graves there from the 1790's.

amazing place.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Mark F
spelling

[Mark H.]

13 minutes ago, Mark F said:

 like  the small local cemeteries in every little prairie town.

Chief Peguis grave is in a cemetery just North of East Selkirk. there are graves there from the 1790's.

amazing place.

Also, Kildonan Presbyterian cemetery, just north of Chief Peguis Trail on Main. Most of the Selkirk Settlers are buried there, including many who were born in Scotland. 

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

It's history, and you can't erase history and in fact erasing history is just a bad idea. What's the saying? Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. Use it as a teaching tool. These are the people who were leaders, this is the good they did and this is the bad. Often times the bad was not as socially unacceptable at the time. In 150 people are going to look back at us now and cluck their tongues and wonder WTF was wrong with us. 

Lol yeah all those history lessons taking place in front of statues. I wonder where the classes have been taking place since covid hit? Man we should really invent a place where people can go to really learn about humanities past. Both good and bad. We can have statues, and displays and even plaques that provide descriptions for those things. I even have a name for it, we should call them museums! I know its an odd word, but trust me it'll catch on.

For real though, statues come up and they go down. That's some history for you. Further more, the specific statue that started this conversation had nothing to do with teaching history and everything to do with honoring a *****. So **** that *****.

And I truly hope that in 50/100/500 yrs time humanity will look back at us and think, wtf where they doing? That's called progress (well hopefully progress and not regression). I want humanity to get better not stay like it is. 

[Tracker]

The first step towards change is awareness, which is not always kind or comforting. Everything costs something, and the impetus of change is discomfort.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Mark F said:

a place of honour at the legislature is for people who deserve to be honoured.

And who is that? And will their life stand the test of progress centuries from now? 

The point is, destroying things isn't a legit form of protest. The churches that had red paint thrown on em? Good protest. Destroying things? Bad protest.

Statues may not be a textbook but they can spur am interest in things. Or is it just me who will often go and do research after seeing statues that I don't know much about?

[Bigblue204]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

And who is that? And will their life stand the test of progress centuries from now? 

The point is, destroying things isn't a legit form of protest. The churches that had red paint thrown on em? Good protest. Destroying things? Bad protest.

Statues may not be a textbook but they can spur am interest in things. Or is it just me who will often go and do research after seeing statues that I don't know much about?

They will not! That's why (in part anyway) statues go up, and then they come down. This isn't some anomaly new to this generation. It happens throughout history. 

And again, this was about 1 thing. Removing a monument to a murderer of children. I find it baffling that anyone would protest such a thing.

[Goldkobra]

My grandfather and great uncle narrowly avoided residential schools because he and his brother were born off reserve and their parents never went back. They moved to alberta and worked on a farm for most of their lives. After he left the army, served in korea, he had no form of physical identification until long after he got married and had children.  He never pursued any type of band membership because he didn't want his boys being taken away. 

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, Goldkobra said:

My grandfather and great uncle narrowly avoided residential schools because he and his brother were born off reserve and their parents never went back. They moved to alberta and worked on a farm for most of their lives. After he left the army, served in korea, he had no form of physical identification until long after he got married and had children.  He never pursued any type of band membership because he didn't want his boys being taken away. 

Old John A. would've said: "mission accomplished." 

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

Lol yeah all those history lessons taking place in front of statues. I wonder where the classes have been taking place since covid hit? Man we should really invent a place where people can go to really learn about humanities past. Both good and bad. We can have statues, and displays and even plaques that provide descriptions for those things. I even have a name for it, we should call them museums! I know its an odd word, but trust me it'll catch on.

For real though, statues come up and they go down. That's some history for you. Further more, the specific statue that started this conversation had nothing to do with teaching history and everything to do with honoring a *****. So **** that *****.

And I truly hope that in 50/100/500 yrs time humanity will look back at us and think, wtf where they doing? That's called progress (well hopefully progress and not regression). I want humanity to get better not stay like it is. 

I have no problem with getting rid of statues or changing the name of schools but do it lawfully. I don't agree with vandalism. Burning down churches solves what, exactly? Besides turning off mainstream society who believe in law & order. If things are to change then anarchy won't propel the change. It'll set back reconcilliation. Eventually, I think that people who would support the cause of reconciliation will eventually get turned off.

What if the angry mob decides it doesn't like you or your property for whatever reason & destroys your home? You can't say it would never happen. Look at the riots in the US in 2020 & over the past 55-60 years. Canadians seem to theink we're above all that but in reality I don't believe we are. I think it's the height of arrogance if Canadians think we're above rioting & destroying property.

Who knows where politics will go in 10 or 20 years. No one thought Donald Trump would ever be elected yet he was. Get rid of the offending statues sure but don't destroy public &/or private property. Get rid of them lawfully. Don't burn down or vandalize churches. It will eventually hurt the cause of reconcilliation.

Edited July 7, 2021 by SpeedFlex27

[the watcher]

15 hours ago, Wideleft said:

And we haven't even talked about what the British Empire did to other Peoples on other continents.

Or the French, Spanish,  Portuguese ,German, Dutch Empires..... It was the way of the times of every empire or wanna be empire. It doesn't make it right but if you want to discuss the damage of colonization outside Canada include everyone. The British were no better or worse than the rest.

[the watcher]

If you believe Queen Vicky should come down then include every single prime minister since Confederation. They were all complicit then. And perhaps that is the correct thing to do , Im not sure anymore. You can also include the PMs since Harper's apology since there has been little done to ease the awful conditions on reserves.    I would definatly  include our current  " thanks for the donation "  Trudeau  in that . That snotty little remark of his is how I will forever remember his relationship with 1st nations.

[Bigblue204]

2 hours ago, the watcher said:

Or the French, Spanish,  Portuguese ,German, Dutch Empires..... It was the way of the times of every empire or wanna be empire. It doesn't make it right but if you want to discuss the damage of colonization outside Canada include everyone. The British were no better or worse than the rest.

I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. 

8 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I have no problem with getting rid of statues or changing the name of schools but do it lawfully. I don't agree with vandalism. Burning down churches solves what, exactly? Besides turning off mainstream society who believe in law & order. If things are to change then anarchy won't propel the change. It'll set back reconcilliation. Eventually, I think that people who would support the cause of reconciliation will eventually get turned off.

What if the angry mob decides it doesn't like you or your property for whatever reason & destroys your home? You can't say it would never happen. Look at the riots in the US in 2020 & over the past 55-60 years. Canadians seem to theink we're above all that but in reality I don't believe we are. I think it's the height of arrogance if Canadians think we're above rioting & destroying property.

Who knows where politics will go in 10 or 20 years. No one thought Donald Trump would ever be elected yet he was. Get rid of the offending statues sure but don't destroy public &/or private property. Get rid of them lawfully. Don't burn down or vandalize churches. It will eventually hurt the cause of reconcilliation.

Do it within the system that put up the statue in the 1st place? That denied survivors? That stole and killed children? You honestly think that would happen? Lol.

It's always the people who want to "save history" that have a seemingly complete lack of understanding of human history. 

The powerful NEVER give up that power willingly. NEVER. There will be no reconciliation without major upheaval. That includes laws being broken, violence, riots etc etc. It's nice that people believe these things CAN happen, but that's just not how the real world works unfortunately. 

And yeah it's gonna suck if the hive turns on me and mine. It won't be fair, it will be scary and it will be hard. The same way it was hard for those who had their kids stolen from them. What goes around comes around....unfortunately it's not always on the people who deserve it most. Again, that's reality. I've been saying for years that it's only a matter of time before the western world is held accountable for the sins of it's fathers....its going to happen. 100%. And at this point it's not gonna be fair to those who committed no horrible acts. But life ain't fair. **** happens that isn't fair all the time.

And people can continue to say it's not right, it's not lawful, 2 wrongs don't make a right etc etc etc. All these things to protect what we all have now. The society we enjoy, the freedoms etc...are all on the backs of someone else. It is only a matter of time before it's our turn to carry a load...be ready cause it's gonna suck.

We have a lie in our society that we aren't our ancestors. That we wouldn't do what they did. All the while...we are supporting very similar practices, they just happen on other continents. Out of site, out of mind. "In 100 years should we be judged for what we are doing now?" Is often  asked...and if you don't think the answer is 100% overwhelmingly, undeniably YES. I'd urge you to step out of your comfort zone and really look at what we have done to eachother.