the watcher Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. That's entirely subjective. Perhaps do a little more study on the Spanish.
Bigblue204 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 1 hour ago, the watcher said: I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. That's entirely subjective. Perhaps do a little more study on the Spanish. Just go look at a map of what the Spaniards conquered and what the brits conquered. I'm not saying the other empires didn't do a lot of bad ****. But the British are in a league of their own.
JCon Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 Can we agree that all European empires were horrible murderers? blue_gold_84, Bigblue204, Eternal optimist and 1 other 1 3
blue_gold_84 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 4 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said: I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. For the better part of five centuries imperial colonialism by Western European powers did immeasurably significant damage to so many parts of the world, the Americas in particular. The Age of Discovery morphed into the rape and pillage of new territories discovered, with ruling powers being motivated by greed, egotism, and then outright genocidal bigotry. One could argue age of imperial colonialism initiated what has turned into accelerated and seemingly irreparable harm to this planet, leading to the ecological crises we face today. That's what's been left behind by those so-called empires. The Spanish Empire was one of the first to settle in the new world, being funded by a powerful crown. At its peak, Imperial Spain held the most territory in the Americas, spanning south from Tierra del Fuego as far north as modern day California. Spain also had a very powerful Catholic Church backing its colonial aspirations from the very beginning, weaponizing religion to secure its grip on the region and exploit its resources and peoples behind the guise of divine superiority. Colonialists brought with them numerous diseases, leading to widespread epidemics across Central and South America. Over 50 million died in the century following Columbus' discovery of the Americas, due to disease, slavery, and outright slaughter - it's been labelled as the great dying. It even caused a global climate event where the planet briefly cooled. The long-term effects of those atrocities can be seen to this day in terms of religion, language, and many other sociopolitical aspects. But I digress. I think there's a case to be made when it comes to the worst empire of all time that Imperial Spain and the British Empire are neck and neck for first place, leaving behind a disgusting legacy. It could be a coin flip but that hardly matters; both could hold that disgraceful title. For us here in Canada, however, it's predominantly the British Empire's legacy. And there should be no statues commemorating any of it. Bigblue204 and Wanna-B-Fanboy 2
the watcher Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 15 minutes ago, JCon said: Can we agree that all European empires were horrible murderers? Yes but it is a homo sapien thing. Take a look at the history of Japan in Korea.Or in China. Rome , The middle East or Africa. We happen to live in a place and in a time the sees the ugly result of European colonization. 14 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said: For the better part of five centuries imperial colonialism by Western European powers did immeasurably significant damage to so many parts of the world, the Americas in particular. The Age of Discovery morphed into the rape and pillage of new territories discovered, with ruling powers being motivated by greed, egotism, and then outright genocidal bigotry. One could argue age of imperial colonialism initiated what has turned into accelerated and seemingly irreparable harm to this planet, leading to the ecological crises we face today. That's what's been left behind by those so-called empires. The Spanish Empire was one of the first to settle in the new world, being funded by a powerful crown. At its peak, Imperial Spain held the most territory in the Americas, spanning south from Tierra del Fuego as far north as modern day California. Spain also had a very powerful Catholic Church backing its colonial aspirations from the very beginning, weaponizing religion to secure its grip on the region and exploit its resources and peoples behind the guise of divine superiority. Colonialists brought with them numerous diseases, leading to widespread epidemics across Central and South America. Over 50 million died in the century following Columbus' discovery of the Americas, due to disease, slavery, and outright slaughter - it's been labelled as the great dying. It even caused a global climate event where the planet briefly cooled. The long-term effects of those atrocities can be seen to this day in terms of religion, language, and many other sociopolitical aspects. But I digress. I think there's a case to be made when it comes to the worst empire of all time that Imperial Spain and the British Empire are neck and neck for first place, leaving behind a disgusting legacy. It could be a coin flip but that hardly matters; both could hold that disgraceful title. For us here in Canada, however, it's predominantly the British Empire's legacy. And there should be no statues commemorating any of it. Agreed 👍 blue_gold_84 and Bigblue204 2
the watcher Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 33 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said: Just go look at a map of what the Spaniards conquered and what the brits conquered. I'm not saying the other empires didn't do a lot of bad ****. But the British are in a league of their own. Maps don't remotly show the brutality of the conqueror. The Spanish 's favorite way of submission to both leaders and religion was burning you alive. Hundreds of thousands worked to death at times without food. Historical records burned and destroyed. Citys leveled. Their history in the middle Americas is on a lecel with what the Romans did. Its brutality is unmatched by anything else in the Americas. None of this negates what the British did but your statements are factually wrong Tracker 1
SpeedFlex27 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said: I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. Do it within the system that put up the statue in the 1st place? That denied survivors? That stole and killed children? You honestly think that would happen? Lol. It's always the people who want to "save history" that have a seemingly complete lack of understanding of human history. The powerful NEVER give up that power willingly. NEVER. There will be no reconciliation without major upheaval. That includes laws being broken, violence, riots etc etc. It's nice that people believe these things CAN happen, but that's just not how the real world works unfortunately. And yeah it's gonna suck if the hive turns on me and mine. It won't be fair, it will be scary and it will be hard. The same way it was hard for those who had their kids stolen from them. What goes around comes around....unfortunately it's not always on the people who deserve it most. Again, that's reality. I've been saying for years that it's only a matter of time before the western world is held accountable for the sins of it's fathers....its going to happen. 100%. And at this point it's not gonna be fair to those who committed no horrible acts. But life ain't fair. **** happens that isn't fair all the time. And people can continue to say it's not right, it's not lawful, 2 wrongs don't make a right etc etc etc. All these things to protect what we all have now. The society we enjoy, the freedoms etc...are all on the backs of someone else. It is only a matter of time before it's our turn to carry a load...be ready cause it's gonna suck. We have a lie in our society that we aren't our ancestors. That we wouldn't do what they did. All the while...we are supporting very similar practices, they just happen on other continents. Out of site, out of mind. "In 100 years should we be judged for what we are doing now?" Is often asked...and if you don't think the answer is 100% overwhelmingly, undeniably YES. I'd urge you to step out of your comfort zone and really look at what we have done to eachother. I'm talking getting rid of statues lawfully & not burning churches. You're lumping statue removal into societal changes of huge proportions. You're talking something totally different here. Bigblue204 1
Tracker Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said: Just go look at a map of what the Spaniards conquered and what the brits conquered. I'm not saying the other empires didn't do a lot of bad ****. But the British are in a league of their own. The Spaniards managed to kill over 10 million without the help of automatic weapons or explosives. The practice of slaughtering opponents is not restricted to Europe or North America. It happened in Africa, Asia and South America. Even the aboriginal peoples in North America practiced genocides when able. There's a lot of blood on a lot of hands. And it is going on in mainland China right now with Uighurs, Mongolians and Tibetans. the watcher and Bigblue204 2
Bigblue204 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said: I'm talking getting rid of statues lawfully & not burning churches. You're lumping statue removal into societal changes of huge proportions. You're talking something totally different here. "I have no problem with getting rid of statues or changing the name of schools but do it lawfully. I don't agree with vandalism. Burning down churches solves what, exactly? Besides turning off mainstream society who believe in law & order. If things are to change then anarchy won't propel the change. It'll set back reconciliation. Eventually, I think that people who would support the cause of reconciliation will eventually get turned off." Those are your words right? What do you think reconciliation will entail? I'm saying that I don't believe there will be reconciliation without vandalism/violence/law breaking. I think it is an unfortunate outcome of reconciliation. I'm also saying that those are the things that bring about major societal changes like reconciliation. At least throughout history. I understand people think we can move forward with reconciliation with nice words/policies/laws etc. I just don't think that will happen. Because for true reconciliation to happen, there would need to be a power swing/change. And like I mentioned, those in power don't just turn it over. I saw a meme online that said something like this: "You came for our children, we came for your statues" Quite frankly we are extremely lucky that only statues and buildings have fallen. I'm not sure I'd show the same grace if it were my children being discovered. Edited July 7, 2021 by Bigblue204 JCon and Mark H. 2
Bigblue204 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 Basically what I'm trying to say. If you're offended at a statue being brought down or the way it was brought down. You should buckle up. Because I believe it will be getting much worse (unfortunately there will be numerous compounding issues as well) because those who hold the power will not be giving it up willingly (even if they say nice words/pass nice laws etc). Hopefully I'm wrong. Tracker 1
the watcher Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said: Basically what I'm trying to say. If you're offended at a statue being brought down or the way it was brought down. You should buckle up. Because I believe it will be getting much worse (unfortunately there will be numerous compounding issues as well) because those who hold the power will not be giving it up willingly (even if they say nice words/pass nice laws etc). Hopefully I'm wrong. Personally and from what I've seen on this site no one is offended. I have seen little outrage although I'm sure there is some. Some people just disagree with what has happened or the way it happened. Most will also have a understanding that when people are angry and frustrated sh** happens and in this case rightly or wrongly a couple of statues were toppled. Bigblue204 and blue_gold_84 2
Bigblue204 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 It's really going to be interesting to see what happens when they're put back up. Pallister said toppling them was a waste of tax payer money cause now they have to be repaired/put back up. Which to me seems like an extra waste of money considering there is no chance in hell they aren't vandalized even more once that happens...outside of a 24/7 security team watching them...which would also be a waste of money. Tracker 1
the watcher Posted July 7, 2021 Report Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said: It's really going to be interesting to see what happens when they're put back up. Pallister said toppling them was a waste of tax payer money cause now they have to be repaired/put back up. Which to me seems like an extra waste of money considering there is no chance in hell they aren't vandalized even more once that happens...outside of a 24/7 security team watching them...which would also be a waste of money. Lol . If nothing else the guy is consistent. In his mind everything comes down to money .I wonder if his kids were/are restricted to 2 squares of TP. Edited July 7, 2021 by the watcher Eternal optimist, WildPath, Tracker and 2 others 5
bustamente Posted July 8, 2021 Report Posted July 8, 2021 These sure are interesting times will live in Mark F and blue_gold_84 1 1
FrostyWinnipeg Posted July 8, 2021 Report Posted July 8, 2021 1 hour ago, bustamente said: These sure are interesting times will live in Danny Smyth will write this one off too.
Eternal optimist Posted July 8, 2021 Report Posted July 8, 2021 On 2021-07-06 at 5:24 PM, Mark H. said: I have taught Canadian History for greater part of my teaching career. Statues are not what history is about. You will find 1000 times more depth and richness in, for example, a local cemetery. Queen Victoria cannot be erased by toppling her statue, nor should or will her history be erased. To be honest - why have statues of any humans? Most of us are deplorable anyways, and at this point it seems humanity is merely circling the drain with climate change and unfettered capitalism running rampant. Mark H. and Sard 2
Tracker Posted July 8, 2021 Report Posted July 8, 2021 9 hours ago, Eternal optimist said: To be honest - why have statues of any humans? Most of us are deplorable anyways, and at this point it seems humanity is merely circling the drain with climate change and unfettered capitalism running rampant. Not an Eternally Optimistic statement.
FrostyWinnipeg Posted July 12, 2021 Report Posted July 12, 2021 'Belligerent' Calgary mayoral candidate pleads guilty to criminal charges on Day 1 of trial blue_gold_84, Bigblue204 and Noeller 3
Mark H. Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 Eileen Clarke resigns from cabinet - over Palister's 'statue remarks' https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/eileen-clarke-resigns-cabinet-pallister-indigenous-comments-1.6102299
Tracker Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 2 hours ago, Mark H. said: Eileen Clarke resigns from cabinet - over Palister's 'statue remarks' https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/eileen-clarke-resigns-cabinet-pallister-indigenous-comments-1.6102299 This is a shock- that a PC would have a conscience and a backbone. Noeller 1
Mark H. Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 12 hours ago, Tracker said: This is a shock- that a PC would have a conscience and a backbone. She is not your typical PC. Unfortunate side effect: Indigenous people just lost an excellent minister. Wanna-B-Fanboy, blue_gold_84, WildPath and 1 other 3 1
SpeedFlex27 Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 On 2021-07-07 at 8:44 AM, the watcher said: I agree that most Empires leave a trail if **** but...if you don't know the British empire is far and away the worst out of the bunch I dont know what to say. That's entirely subjective. Perhaps do a little more study on the Spanish. I think the Roman Empire was far worse & far more brutal than the British Empire The slave uprising led by a slave himself named Spartacus. Historians say that Spartacus was killed at The Battle Of Silarius River where he & his forces made their last stand vs six Roman Legions made up of 48,000 soldiers commanded by Marcus Lucinius Crassus. After the battle where Spartacus' force was annihalated, the over 6,000 survivors were crucified & left to rot on their crosses along the Appian Way from Capua to Rome as a warning to prevent & strongly dissuade any further uprising again. For 500 years, Rome ruled by force. Rome ruled by fear. Rome ruled by intimidation. If I had a choice, I'd much rather live under British rule than Roman tyranny.
the watcher Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said: I think the Roman Empire was far worse & far more brutal than the British Empire The slave uprising led by a slave himself named Spartacus. Historians say that Spartacus was killed at The Battle Of Silarius River where he & his forces made their last stand vs six Roman Legions made up of 48,000 soldiers commanded by Marcus Lucinius Crassus. After the battle where Spartacus' force was annihalated, the over 6,000 survivors were crucified & left to rot on their crosses along the Appian Way from Capua to Rome as a warning to prevent & strongly dissuade any further uprising again. For 500 years, Rome ruled by force. Rome ruled by fear. Rome ruled by intimidation. If I had a choice, I'd much rather live under British rule than Roman tyranny. There are estimates that of the 3 million Gaelic people of continental Europe the Romans killed 1 million, took another million as slaves and 1 million survived.
Tracker Posted July 15, 2021 Report Posted July 15, 2021 The absolute worst mass-murdered was Genghis Khan. He and his hordes killed some 40 million people with good old fashioned spears, swords and arrows. It is. estimated that his victims were about 11% of the population of Asia and actually is reflected in the carbon records of that era. Only time and distance stopped his Mongols from rolling right over Europe as well. He was also a prolific breeder- I seem to recall that almost 10% of the population of east Asia are related to him. Makes me wonder when he had time to do all that pillaging.
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