Canadian Politics

[Tracker]

17 hours ago, WildPath said:

Wherever progress peaks its head out, The Resistance is there to defeat it. Interesting how these clowns were billed as "Trudeau's worst nightmare" yet four years later and Trudeau remains while the majority of these guys are out.  A few faces have changed, but I'd still say a net loss for Canada which is amazing with the low bar set below.

Soooo....you're saying that Justin has been sleeping very well for the last while?

[blue_gold_84]

The cover of that issue of McLean's has aged like milk.

[HardCoreBlue]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

The telling words from Smith are when she talked about "doing what I believe is best for Albertans no matter how hard it is". Not what is best, not what albertans want... what SHE believes is best. **** this crazy ***** and her authoritarian alberta sovereignty act nonsense. She needs to get gone before she wrecks too much that no one can fix it.

On top of that even when she uses the most misused term when she starts her sentence with ‘’Albertans want’, no it’s not what the majority of Albertans want, it’s want a kooky group of knuckle draggers want.

[17to85]

16 minutes ago, HardCoreBlue said:

On top of that even when she uses the most misused term when she starts her sentence with ‘’Albertans want’, no it’s not what the majority of Albertans want, it’s want a kooky group of knuckle draggers want.

Everything they are focusing on are things no one is asking for. No one wants a provincial police force, no one wants the albertan sovereignty act, no one wants an alberta pension plan, no one wants more private health care. Just stop trying to force things we don't want on us and call an election so you get the message.

[WildPath]

7 hours ago, Wideleft said:

There was a convo on twitter yesterday suggesting that this may be the worst group of Premiers in Canadian History.  Is it a mere coincidence that there are 7 provincial Conservative governments?

I more familiar with the overall situation in Manitoba, but I'd suggest the problem is deeper than just the leaders. This might be the worst group of ruling parties we've seen in Canada. As much as I think Stefanson is brutal, I think she's been an improvement from Pallister. Look at the MLA's that represent the party in Manitoba - Josh Guenther, Audrey Gordon - our health minister is part of a church cult that repeatedly defied health restrictions and sued the province, our Indigenous reconciliation minister shone a bright light on residential schools his first hours on the job... Most of the party is brutal. Not as familiar with Alberta, Sask, Ontario but I wouldn't be surprised if it is the same.

[Noeller]

We can talk all day about how bad the premiers are, or ruling parties, but enough people voted for them.... So what does it say about us as a population? 

[SpeedFlex27]

Will this country be together in another 50 years? I have my doubts. Not with the dumbass politicians we have & will probably continue to have running things now & in the future. Too much frustration. Too much anger. 

[Wideleft]

9 hours ago, Noeller said:

We can talk all day about how bad the premiers are, or ruling parties, but enough people voted for them.... So what does it say about us as a population? 

That the biggest problem is apathy and the second biggest problem is the unwillingness of progressive parties to merge.  The Liberals are moving left and every NDP government moves to the centre once elected.  They are indistinguishable once in power, so get off the pot and form a unified non-conservative party already.

[GCn20]

20 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

That the biggest problem is apathy and the second biggest problem is the unwillingness of progressive parties to merge.  The Liberals are moving left and every NDP government moves to the centre once elected.  They are indistinguishable once in power, so get off the pot and form a unified non-conservative party already.

The NDP are ran by labor, no merger will come until those ties are cut.  There is only so far left or right the average voter is willing to go and it is why the NDP will never gain power federally. Even Trudeau's own MPs are telling him to start moving back to centre. The majority of Canadians are not progressives despite the popular belief on this forum. The majority of Canadians walk the centre of the political spectrum in this country. Maybe that will change in the next 15-20 years when millenials start voting in numbers, but right now it certainly isn't the case. Most Canadians want a healthy sprinkling from each side of the political spectrum. Any vote to the extreme left or right is usually just a protest vote.

The Liberals have generationally held the centre line, and it is why they have spent so much time in government. Trudeau has veered off centre and if not for the CONS taking a hard right turn with even more speed than Trudeau's left turn, the Liberals would be paying for it in the polls. In fact, they are paying for it in the polls the last few months. People aren't happy with the Liberals, and they aren't happy with the opposition. Polarization is to blame for a lot of it. Heading any further left for the Liberals would be a very big mistake.

Edited December 2, 2022 by GCn20

[Wideleft]

38 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

The NDP are ran by labor, no merger will come until those ties are cut.  There is only so far left or right the average voter is willing to go and it is why the NDP will never gain power federally. Even Trudeau's own MPs are telling him to start moving back to centre. The majority of Canadians are not progressives despite the popular belief on this forum. The majority of Canadians walk the centre of the political spectrum in this country. Maybe that will change in the next 15-20 years when millenials start voting in numbers, but right now it certainly isn't the case. Most Canadians want a healthy sprinkling from each side of the political spectrum. Any vote to the extreme left or right is usually just a protest vote.

The Liberals have generationally held the centre line, and it is why they have spent so much time in government. Trudeau has veered off centre and if not for the CONS taking a hard right turn with even more speed than Trudeau's left turn, the Liberals would be paying for it in the polls. In fact, they are paying for it in the polls the last few months. People aren't happy with the Liberals, and they aren't happy with the opposition. Polarization is to blame for a lot of it. Heading any further left for the Liberals would be a very big mistake.

Most Canadians don't understand what progressivism is.  The centre is now progressive - environmental protection, worker's rights, wealth distribution, equal rights etc.  These are not concepts that are extreme unless you are a member of the Conservative base.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, Wideleft said:

That the biggest problem is apathy and the second biggest problem is the unwillingness of progressive parties to merge.  The Liberals are moving left and every NDP government moves to the centre once elected.  They are indistinguishable once in power, so get off the pot and form a unified non-conservative party already.

No. I don't want less choices. The PCs and regressive conservatives just need to get on with it and split already. 

[Wideleft]

1 minute ago, 17to85 said:

No. I don't want less choices. The PCs and regressive conservatives just need to get on with it and split already. 

I made no mention of a Conservative split.  

We're speaking the same language.

[17to85]

Just now, Wideleft said:

I made no mention of a Conservative split.  

We're speaking the same language.

No we're not, you are advocating for a 2 party system and that's a disaster.  I just want the right to split so we have choices. It's better for everyone when parties aren't beholden to the fringes as happens in 2 party systems.

[Wideleft]

41 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

No we're not, you are advocating for a 2 party system and that's a disaster.  I just want the right to split so we have choices. It's better for everyone when parties aren't beholden to the fringes as happens in 2 party systems.

I suggest you reread what I said without listening to the assumptions bouncing around in your skull.

[Bigblue204]

6 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I suggest you reread what I said without listening to the assumptions bouncing around in your skull.

To be fair, that's how I read your comment as well. A 2 party system. That's very much how it reads. Though I could see how you think some of the NDP/LIB should break away creating a totally different party? Is that what you meant....so we'd still have Libs/NDP/Cons....and also whatever the LIB&NDP called themselves....?

[Wideleft]

1 minute ago, Bigblue204 said:

To be fair, that's how I read your comment as well. A 2 party system. That's very much how it reads. Though I could see how you think some of the NDP/LIB should break away creating a totally different party? Is that what you meant....so we'd still have Libs/NDP/Cons....and also whatever the LIB&NDP called themselves....?

I specifically said the NDP and Liberals.  I did not mention the Greens, the PPC, the Christian Heritage Party, the UCP, the Saskatchewan Party, Maverick Party or the Communist Party of Canada.

It was almost Hemingwayesque in its conciseness.

[Bigblue204]

4 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I specifically said the NDP and Liberals.  I did not mention the Greens, the PPC, the Christian Heritage Party, the UCP, the Saskatchewan Party, Maverick Party or the Communist Party of Canada.

It was almost Hemingwayesque in its conciseness.

Fair...but let's be real. None of those parties are even remotely close to holding federal power. How many even have a seat? 

[Wideleft]

2 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Fair...but let's be real. None of those parties are even remotely close to holding federal power. How many even have a seat? 

Which is why I'm referring to the problems with NDP/Liberal voting splits costing each party elections at the Federal and Provincial levels.

For the record, I think the First Past The Post election system we have sucks and is the third big problem we have and actually generates voter apathy.  But it's the system we have and it needs to be "worked".

Give me ranked choice or proportional representation any day if we want to encourage broad ranges of ideas and bipartisan legislation.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Wideleft

[Bigblue204]

8 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

Which is why I'm referring to the problems with NDP/Liberal voting splits costing each party elections at the Federal and Provincial levels.

For the record, I think the First Past The Post election system we have sucks and is the third big problem we have and actually generates voter apathy.  But it's the system we have and it needs to be "worked".

Give me ranked choice or proportional representation any day if we want to encourage broad ranges of ideas and bipartisan legislation.

Sorry, my point was that for all intents and purposes we have a 3 party system in Canada. Two of them joining would make it a 2 party system. Sure those other parties would still technically exist. But like I said, they pose no real threat to actually hold federal power. So bringing us back to the original point...the LIBS/NDP joining forces would create a 2 party system and with that being said, I think it's a bad idea.

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, Wideleft said:

Most Canadians don't understand what progressivism is.  The centre is now progressive - environmental protection, worker's rights, wealth distribution, equal rights etc.  These are not concepts that are extreme unless you are a member of the Conservative base.

Most progressive don't understand what centre is. Centre is definitely NOT wealth distribution, that is left of centre. The problem with progressives is that they are trying to claim center as their baseline, and that simply is not true. You can try to claim it, probably will continue to claim it, but the fact of the matter is that it is not centrist. You don't get to move the goal posts.

Edited December 2, 2022 by GCn20

[Wideleft]

2 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Sorry, my point was that for all intents and purposes we have a 3 party system in Canada. Two of them joining would make it a 2 party system. Sure those other parties would still technically exist. But like I said, they pose no real threat to actually hold federal power. So bringing us back to the original point...the LIBS/NDP joining forces would create a 2 party system and with that being said, I think it's a bad idea.

I'll take a powerful centre/left coalition that keeps the Cons out of office for 20 years over the quasi multiple choice mirage that we have now.

1 minute ago, GCn20 said:

Most progressive don't understand what centre is. Centre is definitely NOT wealth distribution, that is left of centre. The problem with progressives is that they are trying to claim center as their baseline, and that simply is not true.

Or the centre is getting more progressive. 

(This is the correct answer)

Wealth distribution is nothing beyond closing tax loopholes for the rich and ending corporate welfare in practical terms.  It's not communism.

[GCn20]

9 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I'll take a powerful centre/left coalition that keeps the Cons out of office for 20 years over the quasi multiple choice mirage that we have now.

There is no feasible and workable centre/left coalition.  Left is left, and for it to remain so it will never have the support of centre. The only way you get a LIB/NDP coalition is if the current NDP abandon the unions. Not going to happen.

9 minutes ago, Wideleft said:

I'll take a powerful centre/left coalition that keeps the Cons out of office for 20 years over the quasi multiple choice mirage that we have now.

Or the centre is getting more progressive. 

(This is the correct answer)

Wealth distribution is nothing beyond closing tax loopholes for the rich and ending corporate welfare in practical terms.  It's not communism.

Sure...that's what wealth distribution means to you perhaps, not what others in the far left have in mind though and that is what scares us centrists. No the centre is not getting more progressive. The centre is being dragged to the left to be sure, but make no mistake too far left and the whole thing will go kaflooey. Don't mistake acceptance of progressive politics as unconditional endorsement by the centrists.  There are a ton of displaced centrists right now who have not parked their vote yet, I can tell you that. A crap load of them who voted Liberal and are not happy with the LIbs heading further and further left.

Centrists do not like the far left any more than they like the far right.

Edited December 2, 2022 by GCn20

[Wideleft]

16 minutes ago, GCn20 said:

There is no feasible and workable centre/left coalition.  Left is left, and for it to remain so it will never have the support of centre. The only way you get a LIB/NDP coalition is if the current NDP abandon the unions. Not going to happen.

Sure...that's what wealth distribution means to you perhaps, not what others in the far left have in mind though and that is what scares us centrists. No the centre is not getting more progressive. The centre is being dragged to the left to be sure, but make no mistake too far left and the whole thing will go kaflooey. Don't mistake acceptance of progressive politics as unconditional endorsement by the centrists.  There are a ton of displaced centrists right now who have not parked their vote yet, I can tell you that. A crap load of them who voted Liberal and are not happy with the LIbs heading further and further left.

Centrists do not like the far left any more than they like the far right.

And yet a significant majority of Canadians support so-called wedge issues (fought for by progressives for years) like abortion, gun control, wealth distribution/inequality,  environmental protection, climate change mitigation and homelessness.

I don't think you or I speak for all centrists or the left, so I don't think that a declaration of "not feasible" is accurate - especially when you consider that some unions have outright supported conservative candidates like Ford, Katz and Trump.

Times and attitudes change and  the centre/left parties need to be as pragmatic as the majority of their supporters.

[Noeller]

I do like the idea of the Grits and Dippers working together to prevent the Tories (now run by their crazy fringe) from having any real power, but as Dave had mentioned, I'm not a fan of less choices to vote for (merging the NDP/LPC). I'd hate to become like the States where everyone is so polarized as one or the other that it becomes part of your DNA and you can never vote for anyone other than a certain party. Right now, the way things are with the NDP propping up the LPC in exchange for some progressive changes.... I'm a fan of that. Also, whatever it takes from letting PP be in charge. We're seeing in AB what that would be like....and I want no part of it. 

[17to85]

2 hours ago, Wideleft said:

I specifically said the NDP and Liberals.  I did not mention the Greens, the PPC, the Christian Heritage Party, the UCP, the Saskatchewan Party, Maverick Party or the Communist Party of Canada.

It was almost Hemingwayesque in its conciseness.

Not one of those parties you listed can field a full slate of candidates across the country and some of them are only provincial parties.... 

Really if you merge the libs and ndp you create a 2 horse race same as the US. Which is not what we should be striving for.

Real choice, not irrelevant phony choice. It keeps everyone from straying too far.