Game 44 : Cartier @ Lagimodière

[Atomic]

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Im no goalie expert but we seem to have had a string of goalies with "potential" who had glaring deficiencies that were never coached away.  Too often a goalie looks like a world beater and then is shell shocked.  I question preparation.  We've seen examples of goalies just the same - played well, had potential, sucked, changed coaches and lived up to that potential.  We need a coach who can help the goalies hit their potential. 

A string of goalies with potential?  Who?  Pavelec, Chris Mason, Al Montoya, Michael Hutchinson, Connor Hellebuyck.... I see one goalie with potential, 3 castoffs from other teams, and Pavelec.

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Atomic said:

A string of goalies with potential?  Who?  Pavelec, Chris Mason, Al Montoya, Michael Hutchinson, Connor Hellebuyck.... I see one goalie with potential, 3 castoffs from other teams, and Pavelec.

Pavs had potential and had demonstrated an ability to play at a high level.  Does he have issues?  Yes, thats why he has a goalie coach.  Hutch went from the ECHL to the NHL in one season.  Certainly expectations were higher for him this season than "worst.  backup.  ever."  And ofcourse Helle who seems to have gotten worse the more time he's spent being coached by Wade.

Look, we can keep saying "the coaches have done a decent job" and "the GM has done a decent job" and "the goalies have done a decent job" and "the team is pretty decent" and be happy being a not very good team.  But if everyone is doing a good job why are the Jets so bad?  And worse, why are they very consistent in their issues that have existed seemingly since they arrived here?

Bad team D.  Poor preparation.  Poor effort.  Inconsistent goal tending.  Lack of ability to adjust during games.  

The big blame was the Atlanta 5.  Well Kane and Ladd are gone.  So now the new boogieman is the goalies. 

If I had to pick, I'd say its coaching.  And if they decide to change coaches this summer, it should be a clean sweep of every coach.  After that, you can only look at the GM for not bringing in the right mix of players and making changes when needed. 

Goodness, imagine if the lottery ball didnt bounce our way this year...

[Floyd]

Goaltending is an issue absolutely.  But again, I remember Habs fans crying when Halak was traded instead of Price... so Helle needs time.

What is hard to ignore is that Maurice now has a lineup that Noel would have only dreamed of... even with Postma and Chiarot.

Its a two-pronged battle - goalies cannot control rebounds - and now I see them getting 'overwhelmed' and that's not good

The other problem is that the Jets actually don't play defence - Morrissey ends up covering the blue line with Ehlers half the time and Enstrom is now too slow to cover for Trouba's rushes

40 games in and we're watching shinny...  that's not on the goalies.

 

 

[Atomic]

The Jets have one of the youngest teams in the league, including their goalie.  It's not coaching, it's inexperience.  If the team misses the playoffs again next year we can talk about coaching.

The Leafs have supposedly one of the best coaches in the league and arguably an even better rookie than Laine, and they are still just flirting with the playoff line.  A major difference there is a veteran goalie.

I'm not saying the coaching staff is perfect but this is exactly where I expected the Jets to be this year based on their age and experience level.  If you expected playoffs this year then that's on you for unrealistic expectations.  Again, we'll have a much better idea next year.

[bustamente]

10 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Goaltending is an issue absolutely.  But again, I remember Habs fans crying when Halak was traded instead of Price... so Helle needs time.

What is hard to ignore is that Maurice now has a lineup that Noel would have only dreamed of... even with Postma and Chiarot.

Its a two-pronged battle - goalies cannot control rebounds - and now I see them getting 'overwhelmed' and that's not good

The other problem is that the Jets actually don't play defence - Morrissey ends up covering the blue line with Ehlers half the time and Enstrom is now too slow to cover for Trouba's rushes

40 games in and we're watching shinny...  that's not on the goalies.

 

 

Have to agree, defensively this team is all over the place bad pinches at the wrong time, getting cycled in our end and not covering the slot, bad puck handling by both goalie's and it just looks like Keystone Cops out there sometimes. Don't get me wrong we have talent in the back end but there's no structure back there and their break outs most times are horrible.

[The Unknown Poster]

The weird part is, since Maurice arrived, his intent was a tighter D game.  The stats show the Jets lowered over-all scoring chances per game (for themselves as well as their opponents).

I think its the wrong system.  Wouldnt something more akin to the Pens be useful?  They had a maligned D and used their speed and playmaking to control puck possession.  if you always have the puck, your opponents arent going to score too often.

[bustamente]

Goaltending doesn't get off the hook they have let in a least 1 weak goal against in there loses, also as we transition to a faster and quicker team did it surprise anyone that the Habs were that much quicker than we were. 

[Ducky]

Team D means the forwards too. The D were bragging up the forwards for slowing up the D allowing the Jets' D to close the gap on the forwards when we shutout Calgary...Ii didn't see much of that last night.

Atomic is right, there are a lot of teams just slightly above us in points that haven't been as injured as us and are struggling. In a normal year, we don't stand a chance of making the post season with our record at this time of the year. Look how poor the division has become. We actually still stand a chance of making the playoffs. Chicago and Minny are doing well but all others are under achieving. Are they going to fire their coaches and change goalies and goalie coaches and assistant coaches?

The game is going faster and the Jets are transitioning to a fast game with a LOT of younger players. What do we have 14 players 23 or under? It will take time and patience which none of us fans have. We want to see the draft picks in the NHL yesterday and make the playoffs every year and a rookie goalie play like Dryden and rookie players play like Gretzky and the vets never make mistakes.

You know what? I have been lurking a lot of other teams' forums and fans are the same no matter the team. We are bragging about the sabres coach and goalie and they are being crucified on their forums and mentioning how it would be nice to have a goalie like Helle and the Sabres won in spite of Bylsma!!!

I am okay with giving Maurice the rest of the season and looking at things in the off-season. The make up of the team needs to be looked at as well as this team needs to make the playoffs next season. Do we need a vet goalie? Do we get help on the 3rd pairing D? Who do we expose to the expansion draft, etc...

[Goalie]

A vet goalie and 3rd pair D don't matter tho if the structure and effort isn't there. Our last 3 games at home. Blow out. Shut out. Blow out. 

That game against Calgary was great... it's how this team should play. Strong defensively. But.. they don't do it enough. I don't think that's the youth... I think the Vets are struggling the most and the youth have been our best. 

Can talk about goalies or 3rd pair D or 4th liners or whatever... it's all irrelevant if the effort isn't there. There are no consequences for certain players.

People who know more about hockey and Maurice than I do say this team looks eerily similar to Carolina the last year Maurice coached there. 

 

[Floyd]

Ah, the we're too young excuse... just wait til next year... except we'll be younger with Stafford and Thorbs gone

5 of the NHL's top ten teams are 'young' - Columbus - the youngest, New York, Edmonton, Anaheim, Minnie

 

[Atomic]

21 minutes ago, Goalie said:

A vet goalie and 3rd pair D don't matter tho if the structure and effort isn't there. Our last 3 games at home. Blow out. Shut out. Blow out. 

That game against Calgary was great... it's how this team should play. Strong defensively. But.. they don't do it enough. I don't think that's the youth... I think the Vets are struggling the most and the youth have been our best. 

Can talk about goalies or 3rd pair D or 4th liners or whatever... it's all irrelevant if the effort isn't there. There are no consequences for certain players.

People who know more about hockey and Maurice than I do say this team looks eerily similar to Carolina the last year Maurice coached there. 

 

No consequences for certain players?  Which?  Stuart who is stuck in the press box?  Thorburn who spent half the season there?  Stafford who was relegated to the fourth line until there were injuries and has been playing well since moving up?  Pav who got sent down to the Moose?  Which players are you referring to?

[Atomic]

7 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Ah, the we're too young excuse... just wait til next year... except we'll be younger with Stafford and Thorbs gone

5 of the NHL's top ten teams are 'young' - Columbus - the youngest, New York, Edmonton, Anaheim, Minnie

 

Lots wrong here.  Winnipeg is youngest or second youngest depending on method of calculation (Carolina would be first when weighted by 'games played').

Columbus is 5th youngest but has a superstar goalie.

Anaheim is not young, they are in the middle third of teams.

New York?  The Islanders are last in the East and the Rangers are the oldest team in the league, so try again.

Minny?  Statistically the best goalie in the league and middle of the pack in terms of age.

Edmonton is young and good.  Also they have a good veteran goalie and Connor McDavid.

So, nice try, but you failed miserably.

[Mike]

I've basically had it with Paul Maurice at this point.

I always struggle with my hockey opinions because while I actually played the game at a fairly high level, compared to football where I never played at all ... I feel like my knowledge of hockey as a viewer is way lower. I don't really expect to be right, but here's what I would say about Maurice:

- no creativity on zone entries, just standard dump and chase and we can't sustain secondary pressure on the dump in to win any battles on the boards. Our one-and-done attack in the offensive zone is frustratingly inefficient.

- I don't see our players being used efficiently in their roles on offense (Wheeler on the PP1 comes to mind immediately)

- the line juggling is just nonsensical to me at this point

- our power play deserves an entire paragraph of it's own but I'll sum it up by saying the combos are stupid and we still can't run a successful PP with this much talent so what the hell are our coaches doing?

- too many forwards lost on defense, which leads to sustained pressure in our own end and discombobulated breakouts when we finally control the puck

 

POMOMUSTGO.

[Goalie]

" I think the other thing too is that when he had his angry moment it didn’t get a lot better," Friedman said. "They got a fluke power play right away because Torrey Mitchell shot the puck into the crowd and they scored a power play goal, but that was their only shot in the first 17 and a half minutes of the second period." - Elliot Friedman 

 

Maurice has lost the room and that's unfortunate because that's 2 coaches now who have lost the room. Is coaching a problem?  Yup. Are some of the vets who tuned the last coach out a problem also?  You bet. 

 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Goalie

[Atomic]

Personally I don't think this would be the right time to fire Maurice.  I think you have to give him one more year with this team.

The reason I would err on the side of caution is that we will only be able to get coaches who are out-of-work, like Maurice was, or with virtually no head coach experience, like Noel.  Now, that doesn't mean those kind of guys can't find success.  But we're not going to be attracting a Babcock, Julien, or Quenneville.

I'd rather stick with Maurice one more year as the young guys gain some more experience and see if that works.  Rather than rolling the dice on an unknown who could just as easily be a Dallas Eakins as he could be a Mike Sullivan.

[Floyd]

36 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Lots wrong here.  Winnipeg is youngest or second youngest depending on method of calculation (Carolina would be first when weighted by 'games played').

Columbus is 5th youngest but has a superstar goalie.

Anaheim is not young, they are in the middle third of teams.

New York?  The Islanders are last in the East and the Rangers are the oldest team in the league, so try again.

Minny?  Statistically the best goalie in the league and middle of the pack in terms of age.

Edmonton is young and good.  Also they have a good veteran goalie and Connor McDavid.

So, nice try, but you failed miserably.

http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams and http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/teams/winnipeg-jets-players-2016-17-nhl-stats.html

Dunno, just used these links...  you must have some greater insight.

But your arguments actually demonstrate that youth is not the main factor in winning or losing...

Bobrovsky was no Vezina candidate last year... are you sure its not Tortorella's system thats making him look better this year?

Same with Minnie - Dubnyk's career was changed by a good goaltending coach... 

You apparently have zero knowledge of the New York Rangers.  That's fine.

Its just funny that you dismiss young teams with success because of good goaltending...  but Carolina is cited as an example of a young team with Ward/Lack as their starting combo

 

[Floyd]

3 minutes ago, Atomic said:

Personally I don't think this would be the right time to fire Maurice.  I think you have to give him one more year with this team.

The reason I would err on the side of caution is that we will only be able to get coaches who are out-of-work, like Maurice was, or with virtually no head coach experience, like Noel.  Now, that doesn't mean those kind of guys can't find success.  But we're not going to be attracting a Babcock, Julien, or Quenneville.

I'd rather stick with Maurice one more year as the young guys gain some more experience and see if that works.  Rather than rolling the dice on an unknown who could just as easily be a Dallas Eakins as he could be a Mike Sullivan.

You also thought Drew Willy wasn't the problem.

[Atomic]

1 hour ago, Floyd said:

You also thought Drew Willy wasn't the problem.

No I didn't, you are obviously confusing me with someone else.

[bustamente]

Anyone think the inmates are running the asylum, we had 2 head coaches one novice and one veteran and people have speculated that they tuned out Noel and are now tuning out Maurice. What will a new head coach achieve with the current core that will be different down the road ,if you get rid of Maurice which i think will happen at the end of the year your going to have to get rid of some of these vets who have been here since they came back to Winnipeg. 

[Ducky]

If Maurice has lost the room (a crock of BS), shouldn't some of that blame fall on Wheeler, Buff and Scheif? Scheif hasn't had a stellar year but nobody says anything about him on here. He has had a lot of games where he looked like he was skating in sand this year and this is before his "injury" too. Wheeler takes more penalties than anyone besides Thorbs and Buff and nobody says anything about that?

Maurice isn't getting fired this year and it doens't matter how big anyone makes their font size on here.

We need more consistent goaltending (which we haven't had all year), a better PK which seems to be getting better as of late, and we need better team D.

The reason the team played well when all the D men were out a few seasons ago and Buff moved back to D was because the forwards were making a concerted effort to back check and help out the D by slowing up the opponents D but that isn't happening very often. That is on the players....do you think Maurice has suddenly said, "okay, we don't have to back check anymore or get on the puck fast"?

As far as people talking about Maurice, a LOT of analysts are talking about the Jets goaltending a lot more than coaching. Everybody needs to be better, this season isn't on one player or group of players or the coach or goalie coach or assistant coaches......it is on ALL of them.

Players that I think don't need to pick up their games are...

Ehlers Little Laine Armia Morrissey

these players have played up to expectations or above but I can't really think of many more that have. It sure isn't any of the 3 wearing letters on their jerseys.

We still need patience with this team...they are getting better but there are growing pains...now, there is no reason why we shouldn't come out of AZ with a W tomorrow night.

Edited January 12, 2017 by Ducky

[Noeller]

Maurice isn't the problem...not yet, anyhow.......but there might be some bad apples. Hard to say without being in the room...

[Floyd]

4 hours ago, Atomic said:

No I didn't, you are obviously confusing me with someone else.

Regardless, you're still totally wrong about the Rangers.

[Goalie]

The same Mark Scheifele on pace for 70 points playing for the most part with a 18 yr old rookie and 19 maybe 20 years old sophomore?  Yeah... totally less than stellar 

Scheif hasn't been around long enough yet to be part of the possible rotten core... those guys would be buff wheeler little Toby Thorburn and Stuart (can't see them being  a problem) 

Those are the guys who are the actual veteran leaders who tuned out 1 coach already... I don't see wheeler or Little being part of the problem either.

 

I'm not sure how anyone can honestly think Coaching isn't a problem when after getting chewed out hard last night on TV on national TV they come out and get 2 shots on goal the entire period. That's a team giving up on the coach. How many more embarrassing losses have to happen for people to realize that Coaching is a big problem. 

People wanted Mike O'shea gone for lesser reasons.  But with O'shea you can tell the players respect and like him.. I don't see that with Maurice 

Edited January 13, 2017 by Goalie

[The Unknown Poster]

Scheif is on pace for 38 goals and 78 points. Well give or take based on games played. He's been great. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, Goalie said:

The same Mark Scheifele on pace for 70 points playing for the most part with a 18 yr old rookie and 19 maybe 20 years old sophomore?  Yeah... totally less than stellar 

Scheif hasn't been around long enough yet to be part of the possible rotten core... those guys would be buff wheeler little Toby Thorburn and Stuart (can't see them being  a problem) 

Those are the guys who are the actual veteran leaders who tuned out 1 coach already... I don't see wheeler or Little being part of the problem either.

 

I'm not sure how anyone can honestly think Coaching isn't a problem when after getting chewed out hard last night on TV on national TV they come out and get 2 shots on goal the entire period. That's a team giving up on the coach. How many more embarrassing losses have to happen for people to realize that Coaching is a big problem. 

We were complaining about the same post at the same time. Lol