Raising Minimum Wage Disastrous

[Atomic]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/new-study-casts-doubt-on-whether-a-15-minimum-wage-really-helps-workers/?utm_term=.f355bac1ba63

Interesting study here.  

The average low-wage worker in Seattle actually lost $125 per month when the government pushed through an aggressively high minimum wage.

Could be a good lesson for all the socialists here in Manitoba currently advocating for a ridiculous minimum wage of $15/hour.

[The Unknown Poster]

Im torn on this issue.

Interesting, until the 60's there was a lower minimum wage for women.  Imagine that.  And until 1988 there was a separate minimum wage for youths.

When I got my first "real" job I made $5/hour.

I think what people lose site of is that jobs that pay minimum wage arent meant to be careers.  They are often jobs that do not require special skills or even high intelligence (which is not to say they dont need some intelligence).  And there are exceptions.

So when someone says they have been flipping burgers for 20 years and barely make more than minimum wage, the instinctive reply is, then get a better job.

On the flip side, there are a lot of people who simply lack the skills, opportunity etc to earn higher paying jobs.  What are they supposed to do?  I DO think if someone works for a company for 20 years, regardless of whether its a "skilled" position or flipping burgers, if they make minimum wage, its a travesty.  Every business should respect their long time employees who, one presumes, has been doing something right.

Then you've got restaurant/bar server.  And perhaps that position artificially holds back minimum wage because of the amount of people the industry employs.  I've worked in many (mostly doing security so I was always paid better than the service staff).  The service staff did it for tips.  Thats where the money was.  In that field, in fact, the low hourly wage might work to their benefit by resulting in less tax, higher GST cheques etc even though they could go home with several hundred dollars in cash tips.

When I made closer to minimum wage back in the day, my complaint with the rapid increases was that every year I got closer to minimum wage because people below me got a raise and I didnt it.  The last bar I worked at, after awhile, the owner recognized this and made sure to take care of those of us who were long time staff.  Plus, we were permitted to take bribes which became pretty lucrative.

I also know a guy, 41 years old, who is a waiter at a popular steak chain.  Whenever I go there, the bill is north of $60 per person.  Often times well north.  So if we have a $200-$500 (depending on how many people) bill and he's taking an average tip, he is likely making "career" money doing that job.

Then again, you look at rent prices.  When I was 18 I got my first bar job making minimum wage.  At 18, I think Canad Inns paid us a dollar or so above.  It was great because I lived at home.  I moved out at 23 and had to get a 'real' job during the day.  I think I made $9 hour.  I managed to rent an apt with two room mates and then on my own (making maybe $10/hour by that time).  But my rent was $500 a month.

How kids today can support themselves is beyond me.  And buy a house?  Good luck.  Not without a huge gift from mom & dad.

So I dont know.... you cant legislate business to be appreciative of long time staff.  On the other hand, if McDonalds wanted to create it's own minimum wage and it meant a combo would increase by a dollar, I'd pay it every day (well I dont eat McDonalds, but you know what I mean).  But Im also a big tipper (not at McDonals) at places that its appropriate to tip.

[Brandon]

Somewhat off topic... the act of tipping should be abolished.    In Europe it's an insult to tip at a restaurant.  

Why should someone who simply walks back and forth carrying food should get extra money,  all while the person doing similar physical activities in retail gets nothing?     Also when I worked at McD's as a kid ... I busted my butt and worked way harder then the waiters at a sit down place which is way more laid back.   It's such a silly cultural thing that should stop.

[Atomic]

IMO buying a house is a privilege, not a right.  If you make minimum wage, yeah you probably won't be buying a house and you might be living with roommates.  The horror!!  It's part of life.

The only people I have real sympathy for are those single mothers out there because they've been thrust into a VERY tough situation and likely don't have the time or money to increase their skill set.  That sucks.  They deserve better but I think the government can find ways to support them outside of mandating huge minimum wage increases.  Free schooling, etc.

But the kids who are making minimum wage between 16-22 years old, maybe living at home and/or going to school?  They don't need a huge living wage.  The money reflects the work they do and that's okay.  The people who are just too damn lazy to improve themselves?  Yeah they don't get to live a middle-class lifestyle just because they see everyone else doing it.

I made minimum wage at 15 years old and then NEVER AGAIN after that.  Even throughout high school and university I was able to find jobs easily that paid a better wage.  I simply don't have sympathy for the people who accept the worst and expect the government to make their lives better instead of doing it themselves.

Your McDonalds example is most interesting to me.  Why raise combo prices by a dollar and scare off customers when I can just automate the cashiers and pay 6 bucks a week to have an iPad do the cashier's job?  So minimum wage goes up but jobs disappear.  Now, that may happen anyways, that's the way things are going, but raising the minimum wage would at least accelerate the process.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

Somewhat off topic... the act of tipping should be abolished.    In Europe it's an insult to tip at a restaurant.  

Why should someone who simply walks back and forth carrying food should get extra money,  all while the person doing similar physical activities in retail gets nothing?     Also when I worked at McD's as a kid ... I busted my butt and worked way harder then the waiters at a sit down place which is way more laid back.   It's such a silly cultural thing that should stop.

I dont know.  I think people should be free to do what they want.  But I agree it has become a cultural thing. 

But the places I worked, that service staff was running their asses off.  At a bar, you're tipping the staff to serve you.  The beer is still the same as if you walked up and bought it yourself (although usually you're tipping the bartender too), but you're tipping the server for bringing it to you.

At a sit down, you're not just tipping the server.  You're tipping the host/hostess, the chef, the busboy etc.  I generally tip unless the service is "negative" and its rarely negative across all facets.  If my server sucks but the food is amazing, Im not leaving a $0 tip. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, Atomic said:

IMO buying a house is a privilege, not a right.  If you make minimum wage, yeah you probably won't be buying a house and you might be living with roommates.  The horror!!  It's part of life.

The only people I have real sympathy for are those single mothers out there because they've been thrust into a VERY tough situation and likely don't have the time or money to increase their skill set.  That sucks.  They deserve better but I think the government can find ways to support them outside of mandating huge minimum wage increases.  Free schooling, etc.

But the kids who are making minimum wage between 16-22 years old, maybe living at home and/or going to school?  They don't need a huge living wage.  The money reflects the work they do and that's okay.  The people who are just too damn lazy to improve themselves?  Yeah they don't get to live a middle-class lifestyle just because they see everyone else doing it.

I made minimum wage at 15 years old and then NEVER AGAIN after that.  Even throughout high school and university I was able to find jobs easily that paid a better wage.  I simply don't have sympathy for the people who accept the worst and expect the government to make their lives better instead of doing it themselves.

Your McDonalds example is most interesting to me.  Why raise combo prices by a dollar and scare off customers when I can just automate the cashiers and pay 6 bucks a week to have an iPad do the cashier's job?  So minimum wage goes up but jobs disappear.  Now, that may happen anyways, that's the way things are going, but raising the minimum wage would at least accelerate the process.

I dont think there is even a discussion about minimum wage people buying a house.  It was somewhat off-topic but I mean, kids used to live at home and work part time to help pay for school, maybe a beat up old car.  Then move out, buy a small house.  I meant, how does anyone buy a house anymore? lol

Your McDonalds example is a good one though.  I guess my feeling is, it would be nice if big business was kind.  But you dont become a big business by being kind, usually.

Perhaps they should bring back a youth minimum wage. 

There are many people, no just single mothers, who would be described as "what else are they going to do" types that are absolutely capable of holding a regular job and functioning well but are not going to rise to any sort of higher career position.  Should they make minimum wage of $11/hour forever?  Even if they do a good job for 20 years?

Would general shaming do the trick?  Like I really believe, regardless of the job, if you work somewhere for 20 years and that company isnt taking care of you, they suck.  On the other hand, if working at Kmart paid $32,000+ per year, wouldn't that ice out the people that need that sort of job and invite those capable of better who arent incentivized to do better?

[Atomic]

If you're at McDonalds for 20 years how come you haven't risen to supervisor or manager?  If you aren't willing or able to advance your position and offer more to the company, should the company really be willing to give you more?  Sure, maybe you're the best damn burger flipper in the place.  OK, so yeah you deserve a little more.  But you don't deserve to make more than the supervisor or manager, do you?  And again, if you're really that good, why can't you advance?

[Taynted_Fayth]

there's been a lot of talk about this issue lately. For the most part seems like there's some cause and effect that doesn't bode well both for the employee or employer.  For the employee I've heard raising the current minimum wage could put them in a new tax bracket and they end up losing more money than they currently do on average. For the employer, especially those that aren't big corporations, but personal ran, to pay their employees more money has a negative affect on their bottom line and would in turn need to raise the prices on their product. 

If people can't afford what they need currently it is likely they are living beyond their means, and need to make the changes necessary.  As mentioned above, if your current wage isn't cutting it for what you want,  then strive to find a better paying job. There are a ton of bursaries out there for anyone to get, if they put the effort in to finding them. I believe every canadian citizen is entitled to 1 government bursary for school, but it only covers about half the tuition.  If anything, I think there needs to be more exposure on what is all available to everyone. There's a ton of organizations set up and funded by the government to help everyone, but are often never heard about on the day to day. 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

Somewhat off topic... the act of tipping should be abolished. 

Yep.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, Atomic said:

If you're at McDonalds for 20 years how come you haven't risen to supervisor or manager?  If you aren't willing or able to advance your position and offer more to the company, should the company really be willing to give you more?  Sure, maybe you're the best damn burger flipper in the place.  OK, so yeah you deserve a little more.  But you don't deserve to make more than the supervisor or manager, do you?  And again, if you're really that good, why can't you advance?

There could be many reasons.  I've known people who are painfully timid and shy and while they are hard workers and follow directions, could never supervise others.  Should they make $50,000 a year?  No.  Should they make more than the kid hired last week?  Yes.

[Taynted_Fayth]

12 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

There could be many reasons.  I've known people who are painfully timid and shy and while they are hard workers and follow directions, could never supervise others.  Should they make $50,000 a year?  No.  Should they make more than the kid hired last week?  Yes.

they don't have to according to employment standards

Quote

Employers decide if and when employees receive pay raises. There is no requirement for employers to increase employees’ wages, regardless of how long employees work for them.

Employees must be paid at least minimum wage. When minimum wage increases, some employees' wages will go up to ensure they are making the new minimum wage.

https://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/doc,minimum-wage,factsheet.html

but it's pretty standard practice that employers give their employees raises once a year (not much tho,  usually like $0.35-$0.50/hr/year just as a sign of goodwill and keeping their employees happy.

I would think tho at a certain point (if an employee is there for 20 years) raises in wage comes to a halt and more paid holidays become the annual perk

Edited June 28, 2017 by Taynted_Fayth

[JCon]

This is quite the study. Very robust and detailed from what I've heard and read.

 

I would like to see this replicated in other markets to determine if it remains statistically significant. It's certainly has economists talking.

 

McDonalds? Forget McDonalds. They're moving to automated systems. In one generation we're not going to have many of the low-wage jobs that we currently have. Like manufacturing, it will all be automated. We need to move past the idea that jobs are "coming back" to North America. They just don't need labour any longer.

[Taynted_Fayth]

4 minutes ago, JCon said:

This is quite the study. Very robust and detailed from what I've heard and read.

 

I would like to see this replicated in other markets to determine if it remains statistically significant. It's certainly has economists talking.

 

McDonalds? Forget McDonalds. They're moving to automated systems. In one generation we're not going to have many of the low-wage jobs that we currently have. Like manufacturing, it will all be automated. We need to move past the idea that jobs are "coming back" to North America. They just don't need labour any longer.

My son's only going into grade 8 (but has talked lots about his post secondary education) but I've been telling him for a few years now a field he should take interest in is mechanics, or more specifically industrial machinery mechanics as the wave of the future seems to be automated systems to run all the menial jobs of the world,  but every machine will need someone to fix it eventually, and I think that will become one of the highest demanding jobs, if not the highest demand

[JCon]

2 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

My son's only going into grade 8 (but has talked lots about his post secondary education) but I've been telling him for a few years now a field he should take interest in is mechanics, or more specifically industrial machinery mechanics as the wave of the future seems to be automated systems to run all the menial jobs of the world,  but every machine will need someone to fix it eventually, and I think that will become one of the highest demanding jobs, if not the highest demand

I wonder if this will be the case? Aren't we moving to a dispose and replace society?

[The Unknown Poster]

16 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

they don't have to according to employment standards

https://www.gov.mb.ca/labour/standards/doc,minimum-wage,factsheet.html

but it's pretty standard practice that employers give their employees raises once a year (not much tho,  usually like $0.35-$0.50/hr/year just as a sign of goodwill and keeping their employees happy.

I would think tho at a certain point (if an employee is there for 20 years) raises in wage comes to a halt and more paid holidays become the annual perk

I think you missed the point.

[Atomic]

23 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

There could be many reasons.  I've known people who are painfully timid and shy and while they are hard workers and follow directions, could never supervise others.  Should they make $50,000 a year?  No.  Should they make more than the kid hired last week?  Yes.

Yup, I don't disagree that they should make more, and in most cases I think they do.  It's just not a lot more.

But I'd also take issue with the excuse that someone is timid and shy.  That isn't permanent.  Maybe for some but for most, if they work on it, they will come out of their shell eventually.  I've worked with some painfully shy people who, once they've got some experience in the working world, blossom into someone completely different.  I find that this is the case with many personal issues.... if people are willing to work on themselves, they will get better and they will find better employment.  But many people are too willing to write themselves off as broken.

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, JCon said:

I wonder if this will be the case? Aren't we moving to a dispose and replace society?

Very much so.  I suppose advanced robotics will likely need people to repair/replace for some time, at least until its cheaper to dispose.

But when buying my TV we discussed warranties etc and it seems with many electronics, it's cheaper to replace than repair.  I read somewhere else about that too...making items so its not practical to try and repair them.  Just replace them.

[Taynted_Fayth]

5 minutes ago, JCon said:

I wonder if this will be the case? Aren't we moving to a dispose and replace society?

All comes down to cost. In many cases paying someone say $500 to fix a $2000 machine is better then continuously buying a $2000 machine every time it has a hiccup

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Atomic said:

Yup, I don't disagree that they should make more, and in most cases I think they do.  It's just not a lot more.

But I'd also take issue with the excuse that someone is timid and shy.  That isn't permanent.  Maybe for some but for most, if they work on it, they will come out of their shell eventually.  I've worked with some painfully shy people who, once they've got some experience in the working world, blossom into someone completely different.  I find that this is the case with many personal issues.... if people are willing to work on themselves, they will get better and they will find better employment.  But many people are too willing to write themselves off as broken.

There are definitely "issues" that afflict people that could cause them to simply be no good in a supervisor role and yet be very good at a job that simply requires them to show up and work hard. 

And yes, many of these things can be overcome but I think its insensitive and impractical to assume people who very likely dont think there is something wrong with them would be able to "work on themselves" until they are leaders or more skilled.  In some cases, its a medical issue preventing it.  In others, its just who they are.

However, there are great jobs out there for those people.  At the place I work, someone started at $18 to essentially...well I dont want to get too specific but lets just say a job that requires no skill other then being able to drive (which is a skill not everyone possesses).  But I know if this person left this employ, they'd be hard pressed to succeed at a job paying half as much.

[Taynted_Fayth]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Very much so.  I suppose advanced robotics will likely need people to repair/replace for some time, at least until its cheaper to dispose.

But when buying my TV we discussed warranties etc and it seems with many electronics, it's cheaper to replace than repair.  I read somewhere else about that too...making items so its not practical to try and repair them.  Just replace them.

If we're talking about electronic,  yes warranties definitely negate the need to repair, assuming people get a warranty. A lot of people don't want to spend the extra when they purchase for it so there is still that kind of bubble money there that's either going to a warranty or potentially someone to fix it down the road.

But there will likely for a few generations yet be a constant need for people in the heavy machine and manufacturing sector to do repairs  

[Atomic]

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

There are definitely "issues" that afflict people that could cause them to simply be no good in a supervisor role and yet be very good at a job that simply requires them to show up and work hard. 

Yes, and they should be paid accordingly.  Because showing up and working hard is really the bare minimum.  It's nice that they are putting in the effort but if they have no skills then they are infinitely replaceable.

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

And yes, many of these things can be overcome but I think its insensitive and impractical to assume people who very likely dont think there is something wrong with them would be able to "work on themselves" until they are leaders or more skilled.  In some cases, its a medical issue preventing it.  In others, its just who they are.

I simply don't agree.  I believe anyone can work on themselves to become better.  If they don't believe there is anything wrong with them, the minimum wage they are earning should clue them in.  If it's a medical issue... I don't know, that's a very different topic.

5 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

However, there are great jobs out there for those people.  At the place I work, someone started at $18 to essentially...well I dont want to get too specific but lets just say a job that requires no skill other then being able to drive (which is a skill not everyone possesses).  But I know if this person left this employ, they'd be hard pressed to succeed at a job paying half as much.

Hell yeah!  To me, that's a huge success.  Good for that person.  They found something that pays well for the only real skill they have.

[The Unknown Poster]

You dont agree that people with medical conditions can just "work to better themselves"?  Really.  If you had a child that had a condition that hindered their ability to advance in areas that require certain social skills (and political), you'd be really happy if they got a job that they worked at and did well at where the employer recognized their efforts and rewarded them by not making them make the bare minimum for 20 years.  That's just not right.

Im not talking about someone being lazy.  But I know I have absolutely skipped over people who did the job better than me because of my charming personality.  ;-)  So my point is, personality and knowing how to play the game gets you further than being a hard worker.  So I feel for those people that are hard workers that dont have the other skills to advance when they probably deserve to.

[Atomic]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

You dont agree that people with medical conditions can just "work to better themselves"?  Really.  If you had a child that had a condition that hindered their ability to advance in areas that require certain social skills (and political), you'd be really happy if they got a job that they worked at and did well at where the employer recognized their efforts and rewarded them by not making them make the bare minimum for 20 years.  That's just not right.

I don't think you read my whole post or I just wasn't clear enough but I meant to disqualify those with a medical issue.  That's a different issue to me, much bigger than what we're talking about here.  If someone is legitimately disabled or suffering from a mental illness then I don't think an increased minimum wage is necessarily the right avenue either but they certainly deserve to be treated fairly in accordance with their circumstances.

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Im not talking about someone being lazy.  But I know I have absolutely skipped over people who did the job better than me because of my charming personality.  ;-)  So my point is, personality and knowing how to play the game gets you further than being a hard worker.  So I feel for those people that are hard workers that dont have the other skills to advance when they probably deserve to.

You're preaching to the choir with this.  I've achieved a lot because of my charisma and I'm not ashamed of that at all.  The "game" you're talking about is LIFE.  It's why sales is the best skill anyone can acquire because it teaches you how to deal with people and that is translatable to any career.

I also believe it's a skill that can be taught.  Sure some people have different aptitudes for it but I believe everyone can get better to some degree at least.

[Taynted_Fayth]

Those people don't really need to work,  they can get a ton of money from the government to subsidize their day to day lives.  Money not readily available for people without disabilities.

Not saying they shouldn't work, or try to better themselves,  but a healthy person with no abnormalities doesn't have that free money to fall back on. Even with the canadian student loan,  you still have to come up with half the tuition which is in the thousands, money people flipping burgers may struggle to accumulate. 

I don't see raising minimum wage suddenly seeing these people with vast amounts of new money. It would be nice instead to see companies get more government funding for them to offer potential scholarships to their employees, especially if they can help advance them within their own work place, but unless everyone got a scholarship I could see that cause some workplace friction in some cases 

[Mark H.]

11 hours ago, Brandon said:

Somewhat off topic... the act of tipping should be abolished.    In Europe it's an insult to tip at a restaurant.  

I tipped in Europe, unless it was specifically stated that gratuity was already included.  Never noticed that anyone felt insulted.