Raising Minimum Wage Disastrous

[Jacquie]

6 hours ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

Those people don't really need to work,  they can get a ton of money from the government to subsidize their day to day lives.  Money not readily available for people without disabilities.

Not saying they shouldn't work, or try to better themselves,  but a healthy person with no abnormalities doesn't have that free money to fall back on. Even with the canadian student loan,  you still have to come up with half the tuition which is in the thousands, money people flipping burgers may struggle to accumulate. 

I don't see raising minimum wage suddenly seeing these people with vast amounts of new money. It would be nice instead to see companies get more government funding for them to offer potential scholarships to their employees, especially if they can help advance them within their own work place, but unless everyone got a scholarship I could see that cause some workplace friction in some cases 

That has to be the most offensive thing I have read here ever. 

Do you have any idea what a person with a disability receives from the government? For a single person, Provincial benefits are under $1,000 per month plus some additional coverage for meds, medical equipment, etc. while Federal CPP Disability is under $800 per month with no additional benefits. Disabled people make up a disproportionate percentage of those living in poverty.

Edited June 29, 2017 by Jacquie

[Taynted_Fayth]

3 minutes ago, Jacquie said:

That has to be the most offensive thing I have read here ever. 

Do you have any idea what a person with a disability receives from the government? Provincial benefits are under $1,000 per month plus some additional coverage for meds, medical equipment, etc. Federal CPP Disability is under $800 per month with no additional benefits. Disabled people make up a disproportionate percentage of those living in poverty.

wasn't intended to be offensive but it's a reality. Even if the money isn't something you could retire on, it's still additional disposable income that people not disabled don't see.  If you add that government money with the wages of a menial job and it works out to a lot better then most take home.

I realize those with disabilities struggle with different aspects of life,  but money is a struggle for a lot of people too 

Edited June 29, 2017 by Taynted_Fayth

[Jacquie]

5 minutes ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

wasn't intended to be offensive but it's a reality. Even if the money isn't something you could retire on, it's still additional disposable income that people not disabled don't see.  If you add that government money with the wages of a menial job and it works out to a lot better then most take home.

I realize those with disabilities struggle with different aspects of life,  but money is a struggle for a lot of people too 

A person collecting Provincial EIA is allowed to make a certain amount per month from a job. Anything over that amount is deducted from their EIA payment. And for a lot of people, the extra money from a job is not disposable income. Do you think you could find a safe, maintained place to live, buy groceries and pay for any necessities on $1,000 a month?

[Taynted_Fayth]

Just now, Jacquie said:

A person collecting Provincial EIA is allowed to make a certain amount per month from a job. Anything over that amount is deducted from their EIA payment. And for a lot of people, the extra money from a job is not disposable income. Do you think you could find a safe, maintained place to live, buy groceries and pay for any necessities on $1,000 a month?

if your talking about EIA you're essentially talking about welfare and assistance for families struggling. I was on EIA once before and I got $120 bi weekly and a free bus pass once a month until i found work then was abruptly cut off. 

There is far more places disabled people,  both physically and mentally collect money from the government than welfare, not mention huge tax breaks as well. 

$1000 could get me by a month,  $400 for a room in a rooming house, or shared with roommates,  $150 bi weekly for groceries, and the remaining $400 split amongst bills and leisure. Would I be living the high life? no, but I would be able to live on that.

The point is those who are disabled don't "have" to work,  they have a lot more opportunities to get income without working. I don't discourage them from working though. As you say the money they get from the government isn't as good as it could be, but it's better than nothing, and I believe working for some people does give them a boost in self worth.  But I think with all things considered they don't necessarily need a hike in min. wage when they are subsidized else where, vs a person who is limited with option to find a better job due to lack of skill/education/opportunity

[Jacquie]

3 hours ago, Taynted_Fayth said:

if your talking about EIA you're essentially talking about welfare and assistance for families struggling. I was on EIA once before and I got $120 bi weekly and a free bus pass once a month until i found work then was abruptly cut off. 

There is far more places disabled people,  both physically and mentally collect money from the government than welfare, not mention huge tax breaks as well. 

$1000 could get me by a month,  $400 for a room in a rooming house, or shared with roommates,  $150 bi weekly for groceries, and the remaining $400300 split amongst bills and leisure. Would I be living the high life? no, but I would be able to live on that. *$150 bi-weekly would be at least $300 per month. 

The point is those who are disabled don't "have" to work,  they have a lot more opportunities to get income without working. I don't discourage them from working though. As you say the money they get from the government isn't as good as it could be, but it's better than nothing, and I believe working for some people does give them a boost in self worth.  But I think with all things considered they don't necessarily need a hike in min. wage when they are subsidized else where, vs a person who is limited with option to find a better job due to lack of skill/education/opportunity

Yes I'm talking about EIA. EIA is also for people with disabilities who need financial help - not just single parents or able bodied people with no source of income. 

Please tell me where all of this money you think the government hands out comes from. I would really like to know because my daughter isn't getting any it. BTW, huge tax breaks mean diddly squat to a disabled person on EIA since the Province claws back the entire amount of any income tax refund.

I do think you are being quite overly optimistic to think you would have anything left over for leisure when you have to pay for everything else you need out of that $300. 

 

[Fraser]

I dont advocate that there  should  be a large portion of society  that is 'working poor'. I think the  real problem with  is that it just creates inflation. Companies that pay minimum  have  to change their prices to adjust.  Companies that pay  more  have to increase wages to maintain their  spread.  All these companies  do things,  so the price  of food,  fuel, services  all  go up. The average  wage goes  up so teachers/ cops/fire/nurses etc  use that info in collective  bargaining  and taxes go up.

I don't  have any solution,  I'm  just saying it really just  takes the problem and shifts it up a few dollars.

[The Unknown Poster]

I suppose if you think disabled people have it so easy, you could trade.  I bet they'd be okay with that too.

[Atomic]

This seems to have drifted off-topic.  EIA could certainly be improved but I'm not sure that has anything to do with the minimum wage.

By the way someone working full-time at the current minimum wage would bring in about 50% more money than what EIA gives.  Although my understanding is EIA also provides Rent Assist for shelter and utilities on top of the $996 cash they provide under the current regulations and I'm not sure what the dollar amounts are for that.

[StevetheClub]

20 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I suppose if you think disabled people have it so easy, you could trade.  I bet they'd be okay with that too.

Indeed. I thought maybe the first post was a lapse in judgement and that there'd be some back-tracking after Jacquie responded. Did not expect to see doubling down on the ignorance.

[Jacquie]

4 hours ago, Atomic said:

By the way someone working full-time at the current minimum wage would bring in about 50% more money than what EIA gives.  Although my understanding is EIA also provides Rent Assist for shelter and utilities on top of the $996 cash they provide under the current regulations and I'm not sure what the dollar amounts are for that.

My daughter gets Rent Assist and it's included in the $996 - it's not additional money.

[Atomic]

Just now, Jacquie said:

My daughter gets Rent Assist and it's included in the $996 - it's not additional money.

That's rough.  Despite the detailed spending breakdown by Taynted, I don't see how anyone can live off that.

[bigg jay]

And just getting worse for those needing it as Rent Assist is being reduced by the province effective July 1st.

[Atomic]

7 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

And just getting worse for those needing it as Rent Assist is being reduced by the province effective July 1st.

That's unfortunate.  A better route would be to look at the people who abuse the system and get them out, leaving more money for the people who really need it.

[wbbfan]

The problem isnt wage, its wage : cost of living. Drastically alter one and the other will adjust to compensate. The minimum wage isnt the barrier its the middle class. We need to rebuild the middle class and lower the barrier for entry. It would be any thing but easy. Bumping the wage and praying it works is easy. Easy way outs seldom work in general though. 

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, Atomic said:

That's rough.  Despite the detailed spending breakdown by Taynted, I don't see how anyone can live off that.

Scary thing is 12$ an hour at 40 hours a week is 1,920 a month before taxes. About 1,286 take home a month. 

[johnzo]

Finally getting around to reading this.

It's interesting that the study excludes people who work at chain stores ... McDonald's, Starbucks, Wal-Mart, etc.  That's a sizable hunk of data to discard -- a huge minority, if not a small majority, of minimum-wage workers work for such places. It's hard for conclusions about "the average low-wage worker" to be credible when they've excluded such a large population.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

13 hours ago, johnzo said:

Finally getting around to reading this.

It's interesting that the study excludes people who work at chain stores ... McDonald's, Starbucks, Wal-Mart, etc.  That's a sizable hunk of data to discard -- a huge minority, if not a small majority, of minimum-wage workers work for such places. It's hard for conclusions about "the average low-wage worker" to be credible when they've excluded such a large population.

 

And whats the reasoning, that most of those jobs are just part time workers who arent relying on the income to support themselves?

 

[basslicker]

Only bad things happen when governments muck around with the economy. They need to stay out of it.

If you sky rocket the minimum wage, many will go from having little money to no money because they won't have a job.  Let the market dictate the wages.  Low-income jobs aren't meant to raise a family on.   One problem is possibly that a lot of jobs that unskilled young people used to get are taken by new immigrants who are unable to obtain the jobs they are qualified for in their home countries and therefore take these unskilled jobs like fast food and such.  Problem is made worse when then they have families to care for already and only have this crap job, but that doesn't make it the responsibility of the government to force private companies to pay more.  that won't solve the problem.

 

Not every one can be rich.

[johnzo]

On 7/11/2017 at 6:23 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

And whats the reasoning, that most of those jobs are just part time workers who arent relying on the income to support themselves?

 

I am not an economist and I'm not a savvy reader of economics papers, but I think their reasoning is that the data is easier to work with if certain classes of people are excluded.

[johnzo]

16 minutes ago, basslicker said:

Only bad things happen when governments muck around with the economy. They need to stay out of it.

Yeah, immigration enforcement is causing tons of problems in the States right now.  Crops are not being harvested because the workers are arrested or are afraid they're going to be arrested.

(or is this the good kind of government intervention?)

[Atomic]

32 minutes ago, johnzo said:

Yeah, immigration enforcement is causing tons of problems in the States right now.  Crops are not being harvested because the workers are arrested or are afraid they're going to be arrested.

(or is this the good kind of government intervention?)

Is the lack of harvesting the problem, or is the inappropriate use of illegal immigrants as a low-cost workforce the problem?  Are you in favour of exploiting illegal immigrants by paying them lower than minimum wage?  That doesn't seem right.

[basslicker]

2 hours ago, johnzo said:

Yeah, immigration enforcement is causing tons of problems in the States right now.  Crops are not being harvested because the workers are arrested or are afraid they're going to be arrested.

(or is this the good kind of government intervention?)

You forgot the word 'illegal', it should have gone before immigration.   Using minorities as your pet reasoning to overpay unskilled fast food labour doesn't fly.

You want to work in a country other than your own?  Become a citizen the right way, and pay your taxes like the rest of the country.  It's a lot harder to become a Mexican citizen than an American one.  No one ever complains when Mexico rounds up illegals form farther south and deports them but when America protects itself it's somehow a bad thing.

[johnzo]

Basslicker, you said that "Only bad things happen when governments muck around with the economy."  Immigration laws are protectionist laws designed to prop up local labor markets -- they're the very definition of "mucking around with the economy."  So, if government economic intervention is always bad, shouldn't we do away with immigration law and let job creators hire anyone they like?  As an immigrant who job creators love to hire, that would save me a bunch of paperwork, personally.

(What I'm getting at is that "Only bad things happen when governments muck around with the economy" is a silly thing to say, in case that's not clear)

Edited July 12, 2017 by johnzo

[johnzo]

3 hours ago, Atomic said:

Is the lack of harvesting the problem, or is the inappropriate use of illegal immigrants as a low-cost workforce the problem?  Are you in favour of exploiting illegal immigrants by paying them lower than minimum wage?  That doesn't seem right.

My position on low-skilled American immigration is this: the criminalization of low-skill immigration actually makes low-skill immigrants more attractive to hire, because it's a lot harder to enforce labor laws on behalf of people who are in the country illegally. From a humanitarian standpoint I favor bringing those folks in from the cold because it'll make it easier to regulate their employers -- paradoxically making immigrants less competitive with native-born labor.  So you have immigrants who have recourse when they're exploited and native-born labor that's more competitive.  Seems win-win to me.

But my understanding of these things isn't super comprehensive and I doubt things are as simple as I see them. We're going to have more and more surplus labor in Western countries as the robots take over and adding more through immigration is going to make that problem harder to deal with it (I remember our brief discussion of the basic minimum income experiment that's happening in t-bay.)  So it's complicated.

[Mark H.]

Employers like vegetable growers and slaughter houses would have to pay oil patch type wages without immigrant labour. Slaughter houses used to do this before Maple Leaf took over most of the industry.