Bombers @ Lions: Game Day Thread (07/21/17)

[do or die]

Some twitchy knees around here.....

[Booch]

yEAH I like the direction and the team actually when totally healthy on defence will be the true indicator of where we are at.

 

I as well not happy with the offensive in game decisions and adjustments. We have the player's as well as the plays to really be explosive and high scoring, but we don't utilize it and it falls on Lapo...plays scared, passive, conservative...I don't know what it is but he has to get into the mindset of not playing safe, and "hoping" that the short passes will result in bigger gains if all goes right, and thats what it is, if all goes right and the ball carrier makes the one guy miss, and all the other parts of the play draw opposition away it will work, but that will only be successful 30% of time, especially when teams know this and scheme to take it away. Which they are doing.

In my mind I hope he is using a long term plan off setting up the defenses to continually bite on this and then burn them several games into the season much like an in game scheme using play action etc...but I am pretty much sure that is not the intention.

Another thing I am a bit annoyed at is the tendency of us just taking the ball at the 35 after being scored on as opposed electing to return a kick and flip the field, or at the least have the opportunity to flip it. Can be a game momentum changer and we rarely try to do it. Not sure if it is a lack of faith in the return game or what but that needs to change.

We know what Lankford is and can do, time to sit him for a few and DI Flanders and give Thorpe at least 2 games of returns and actually choose to return the ball and see what we got

[Atomic]

45 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Doug Berry disagree's with you.

He fired himself?  I think Doug would agree with me.  Lyle Bauer might not, however.

[TBURGESS]

19 minutes ago, Atomic said:

He fired himself?  I think Doug would agree with me.  Lyle Bauer might not, however.

Of course he didn't fire himself. Berry was fired after 3 straight years of making the playoffs.

Just making the playoffs shouldn't be a guarantee of employment. O'Shea should be fired if he has 3 years of playoffs without a playoff win for example.

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Of course he didn't fire himself. Berry was fired after 3 straight years of making the playoffs.

Just making the playoffs shouldn't be a guarantee of employment. O'Shea should be fired if he has 3 years of playoffs without a playoff win for example.

So then how would Doug Berry disagree with me?  Your post made no sense, is all I'm saying.

If O'Shea goes three straight years with playoff appearances and no wins, I'd agree that we should probably cut ties with him at that point.  However that seems incredibly unlikely and I doubt we ever have to cross that bridge.

[blue_gold_84]

17 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Of course he didn't fire himself. Berry was fired after 3 straight years of making the playoffs.

Just making the playoffs shouldn't be a guarantee of employment. O'Shea should be fired if he has 3 years of playoffs without a playoff win for example.

Maybe not. But it sure helps. Berry's firing was a pretty dumb mistake, especially when you consider what followed.

[Atomic]

15 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Maybe not. But it sure helps. Berry's firing was a pretty dumb mistake, especially when you consider what followed.

Yeah.  It was pretty clear that firing Berry after 3 straight years in the playoffs, including a GC appearance was a stupid move.  It was also pretty clear that firing Lapo 8 games after making the GC was also a stupid move.  

But hey, it shows that mediocrity isn't good enough and that we're always looking to upgrade so I'm sure all the "I'VE BEEN A FAN FOR 60 YEARS AND DESERVE BETTER" fans were happy with those moves.

[blue_gold_84]

Just now, Atomic said:

Yeah.  It was pretty clear that firing Berry after 3 straight years in the playoffs, including a GC appearance was a stupid move.  It was also pretty clear that firing Lapo 8 games after making the GC was also a stupid move.  

But hey, it shows that mediocrity isn't good enough and that we're always looking to upgrade so I'm sure all the "I'VE BEEN A FAN FOR 60 YEARS AND DESERVE BETTER" fans were happy with those moves.

It's one thing for overzealous fans to act like they know better and resort to knee-jerk reactions.

It's an entirely different animal when individuals in the organization itself resort to the latter - especially without valid rationale.

[TBURGESS]

It doesn't matter who fired Berry and it doesn't matter that it was fairly obviously the wrong decision at the time. The fact he was fired after making the playoffs every year he was our HC proves that just making the playoffs doesn't mean you get to keep your HC job. 

[Mr Dee]

3 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It doesn't matter who fired Berry and it doesn't matter that it was fairly obviously the wrong decision at the time. The fact he was fired after making the playoffs every year he was our HC proves that just making the playoffs doesn't mean you get to keep your HC job. 

Of course it matters who fired Berry..because it's the why behind the decision. 

Precisely why we need stability in the front office. Many were questioning the decision to stay with MOS after the first 2 years, so staying the course, sometimes proves the right decision..for now. But there's growth now in our system and a direction. 

As to if making the playoffs is good enough, let's do that a few years in a row, then see what else is necessary. We don't have to pre-make that decision quite yet.

[blue_gold_84]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

It doesn't matter who fired Berry and it doesn't matter that it was fairly obviously the wrong decision at the time. The fact he was fired after making the playoffs every year he was our HC proves that just making the playoffs doesn't mean you get to keep your HC job. 

A moronic and short-sighted decision made by a former regime that didn't have a clue what it was doing doesn't prove anything.

[Tracker]

2 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

A moronic and short-sighted decision made by a former regime that didn't have a clue what it was doing doesn't prove anything.

Disagree. It proves that nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently determined fool.

[17to85]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

It doesn't matter who fired Berry and it doesn't matter that it was fairly obviously the wrong decision at the time. The fact he was fired after making the playoffs every year he was our HC proves that just making the playoffs doesn't mean you get to keep your HC job. 

Of course it matters, a big part of the teams problems then were a president and GM on different pages, Miller and Walters and O'Shea are all very much on the same page right now which is why they won't fire O'Shea if he is consistently in the playoffs. 

[MC]

On ‎7‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:32 PM, 17to85 said:

This is pretty much it. Hall isn't my ideal choice for a DC but he is good enough, it's really just Lapolice that is a major problem and it's as you say, his ability to call a game rather than anything else. Guy is very prone to over thinking things and often outsmarts himself. He is also very passive when sometimes you gotta go for the throat. I would have hoped he'd have learned that but it appears that he really hasn't. 

If I understand correctly, the problem is not that the defense allowed 45 points against it, but that the offense (with a middle of the road QB and a mediocre receiving corps) failed to score 46.

[Mr Dee]

2 minutes ago, MC said:

If I understand correctly, the problem is not that the defense allowed 45 points against it, but that the offense (with a middle of the road QB and a mediocre receiving corps) failed to score 46.

Or, you could say that having 3-4 rookies in the lineup on D might have influenced the outcome also...

The biggest regret for us was that the game was there for the taking, save for two lapses, but sadly, it was BC who did the taking.

[JuranBoldenRules]

17 minutes ago, MC said:

If I understand correctly, the problem is not that the defense allowed 45 points against it, but that the offense (with a middle of the road QB and a mediocre receiving corps) failed to score 46.

More than the offense couldn't get a first down for 6 drives at the most critical juncture of the game.

[TBURGESS]

6 hours ago, Atomic said:

As long as we are in the playoffs he keeps his job, IMO.  No time limit.

It started with this statement, which is wrong IMO. Firstly, making the playoffs hasn't guaranteed the HC another year in the past, just ask Doug Berry. Secondly, there is a time limit on mediocrity. 

8 or 9 wins gets you into the playoffs. O'Shea keeps his job with that record this year because they wouldn't want to pay the 2 years left on his contract nor would they want want to admit they were wrong. 8 or 9 wins again next year and you have to think about replacing O'Shea. Same thing if we don't win playoff games.

Walters will give O'Shea the benefit of the doubt for this year, even if we don't make the playoffs, but would he continue to do so next year or the year after if we turn out to be a consistent .500 team instead of a contender?

FTR: I'm not saying that we will be a .500 team going forward, that we won't make the playoffs this year or that we will only win 8 or 9 games each of the next two years. I am saying if these things happen, O'Shea should lose his job because you can't support continued mediocrity.

[Atomic]

2 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It started with this statement, which is wrong IMO. Firstly, making the playoffs hasn't guaranteed the HC another year in the past, just ask Doug Berry. Secondly, there is a time limit on mediocrity. 

8 or 9 wins gets you into the playoffs. O'Shea keeps his job with that record this year because they wouldn't want to pay the 2 years left on his contract nor would they want want to admit they were wrong. 8 or 9 wins again next year and you have to think about replacing O'Shea. Same thing if we don't win playoff games.

Walters will give O'Shea the benefit of the doubt for this year, even if we don't make the playoffs, but would he continue to do so next year or the year after if we turn out to be a consistent .500 team instead of a contender?

FTR: I'm not saying that we will be a .500 team going forward, that we won't make the playoffs this year or that we will only win 8 or 9 games each of the next two years. I am saying if these things happen, O'Shea should lose his job because you can't support continued mediocrity.

Sorry it's not wrong, it's my opinion and what I would personally do.

[TheSource]

2 hours ago, Atomic said:

Yeah.  It was pretty clear that firing Berry after 3 straight years in the playoffs, including a GC appearance was a stupid move.  It was also pretty clear that firing Lapo 8 games after making the GC was also a stupid move.  

But hey, it shows that mediocrity isn't good enough and that we're always looking to upgrade so I'm sure all the "I'VE BEEN A FAN FOR 60 YEARS AND DESERVE BETTER" fans were happy with those moves.

 

There is another factor that people here are overlooking.

You are now into year 4 of the OShea / Walters era and all the organization has managed to do is produce a mediocre team in terms of where it counts most: win/loss record and playoff opportunities. You don't get a 10 year rebuild process in any pro sports league anymore. We'll see what this team looks like next year and the year after that, once free agency has taken its ravages on the import and national talent base.

History has not been kind to this franchise, which has looked like more like a farm team than an organization building greatness. Bombers look to have collected some good players in the last few years,  but its hard to keep those players when other teams offer the same of better money, and the players get to live in a more modern and "happening" city. Bombers have not competed well with other CFL franchises primarily for this reason over the last 30 years.

This team more than most needs to adopt a "now or never" philosophy. I'm not confident in the ability of Walters and the scouting staff to replace the good players that are inevitably going to jump ship at a rate that will see the team improve rather than regress. This years recruits are a good example. There are a few good ones (Jeffcoat and Poop) but there have been more really atrocious ones that are clearly downgrades (Walker, CaraMichael, Washington, Lankford). This team needs to be better at replacing talent than that if it is going to take a 6 or 7 year cycle to get to the same level as the top 3 (Calgary, Edmonton, BC), or for that matter even remain ahead of the other contenders or teams in rebuild mode such as Sask.

 

[blue_gold_84]

1 hour ago, tracker said:

Disagree. It proves that nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently determined fool.

Kinda goes without saying.

[Atomic]

9 minutes ago, TheSource said:

 

There is another factor that people here are overlooking.

You are now into year 4 of the OShea / Walters era and all the organization has managed to do is produce a mediocre team in terms of where it counts most: win/loss record and playoff opportunities. You don't get a 10 year rebuild process in any pro sports league anymore. We'll see what this team looks like next year and the year after that, once free agency has taken its ravages on the import and national talent base.

History has not been kind to this franchise, which has looked like more like a farm team than an organization building greatness. Bombers look to have collected some good players in the last few years,  but its hard to keep those players when other teams offer the same of better money, and the players get to live in a more modern and "happening" city. Bombers have not competed well with other CFL franchises primarily for this reason over the last 30 years.

This team more than most needs to adopt a "now or never" philosophy. I'm not confident in the ability of Walters and the scouting staff to replace the good players that are inevitably going to jump ship at a rate that will see the team improve rather than regress. This years recruits are a good example. There are a few good ones (Jeffcoat and Poop) but there have been more really atrocious ones that are clearly downgrades (Walker, CaraMichael, Washington, Lankford). This team needs to be better at replacing talent than that if it is going to take a 6 or 7 year cycle to get to the same level as the top 3 (Calgary, Edmonton, BC), or for that matter even remain ahead of the other contenders or teams in rebuild mode such as Sask.

So why don't we just fire everyone every year they don't win the Grey Cup?

Never mind that we actually finished ahead of Edmonton last year.  But because at this present moment in time we are behind them in the standings, suddenly we aren't competitive with those teams and our management is terrible, coaches are mediocre, etc.  More knee-jerk BS IMO.

Edited July 26, 2017 by Atomic

[blue_gold_84]

6 minutes ago, TheSource said:

History has not been kind to this franchise, which has looked like more like a farm team than an organization building greatness. Bombers look to have collected some good players in the last few years,  but its hard to keep those players when other teams offer the same of better money, and the players get to live in a more modern and "happening" city. Bombers have not competed well with other CFL franchises primarily for this reason over the last 30 years.

This is simply not accurate, which is saying a lot compared to the rest of your post. A losing culture and constant turnover of regimes are why the team's been unable to establish a consistent winner and attract the best players.

You clearly haven't paid attention recently if you think it's been hard for the Bombers to retain the talent they've managed to attract the last few years.

[17to85]

56 minutes ago, MC said:

If I understand correctly, the problem is not that the defense allowed 45 points against it, but that the offense (with a middle of the road QB and a mediocre receiving corps) failed to score 46.

Well the other way to look at it is if the offense isn't going 2 and out all the time there are less opportunities for the other team to score points.

[Mr Dee]

RadioShack seems to be just a little behind the times in thinking...

[TBURGESS]

It's not that consistency creates winning teams, it's that winning teams create consistency. Being consistently bad is horrible. Being consistently mediocre is somewhat better. Being consistently good is what everyone wants.