Bombers @ Lions: Game Day Thread (07/21/17)

[blue_gold_84]

6 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

It's not that consistency creates winning teams, it's that winning teams create consistency. Being consistently bad is horrible. Being consistently mediocre is somewhat better. Being consistently good is what everyone wants.

[TheSource]

9 minutes ago, Atomic said:

So why don't we just fire everyone every year they don't win the Grey Cup?

Never mind that we actually finished ahead of Edmonton last year.  But because at this present moment in time we are behind them in the standings, suddenly we aren't competitive with those teams and our management is terrible, coaches are mediocre, etc.  More knee-jerk BS IMO.

 

Yes, firing everyone every year is a bad idea, and we've see where that goes, but providing no mandate to improve is also a sure way to the bottom of the league.

As an alternative, I'd settle for Miller perhaps enforcing a little more accountability. For example:

- So far a number of the recruits have not been stellar when forced into service. Why not continue to bring in players for a look? Yes, when some starters are due back, but why keep players who are terrible for backups or PR? Why not continue to try and improve? Seems like the team is always too willing to "stand pat".

- No one is very happy with the type of offence style we have seen this year when the game is close. Why can't Miller call in OShea, LaPo, Walters and at least let them know that what they are doing is not entertaining and not what the average fan wants? Its not interfering to tell someone that their product is inferior and that adjustments need to be made.

- Someone should be providing some balance in the organization to change these trends (poor coaching decisions, lazy scouting habits, passive football tendencies). You don't need to fire anyone, but at some point, there should be some guidance imposed, particularly since OShea does not have the experience of a Wally Buono, and Walters does not have the talent of a John Huffnagel.

 

[Atomic]

So you'd prefer that the president of the organization has final say over who is in the lineup.  Not a fan of that approach.

[17to85]

your premise fails when you seem to think that Mike O'Shea doesn't want to win as much as you do. 

[TheSource]

Just now, Atomic said:

So you'd prefer that the president of the organization has final say over who is in the lineup.  Not a fan of that approach.

 

That not what I said.

Miller's job is to provide feedback, particularly with respect to marketing decisions. Doing 2 yard passes repeatedly on 2nd and 10 in every game is not a good marketing decision. If I were Miller, I'd let my employees know this and tell them to fix the problem. How they fix it id their mandate, but upper management should not tolerate complacency or actions that drive the team in the wrong direction

 

 

 

[17to85]

But do you think that Mike O'Shea can't see the problems that this team has? Cause I guarantee he sees every single one of them AND he seems more than we do too. He's got a hell of a lot more information than we do. 

[Atomic]

Just now, TheSource said:

That not what I said.

Miller's job is to provide feedback, particularly with respect to marketing decisions. Doing 2 yard passes repeatedly on 2nd and 10 in every game is not a good marketing decision. If I were Miller, I'd let my employees know this and tell them to fix the problem. How they fix it id their mandate, but upper management should not tolerate complacency or actions that drive the team in the wrong direction

No it's exactly what you're saying.  You either trust your coaches or you don't.

I'm sure Miller provides feedback.  But if that feedback becomes "You MUST use this player, you MUST call this play", you no longer trust your coaches and you are interfering directly.  You have no evidence that Miller does not provide feedback.  We've fired an OC and a DC in Miller's time here.

[TheSource]

22 minutes ago, Atomic said:

No it's exactly what you're saying.  You either trust your coaches or you don't.

I'm sure Miller provides feedback.  But if that feedback becomes "You MUST use this player, you MUST call this play", you no longer trust your coaches and you are interfering directly.  You have no evidence that Miller does not provide feedback.  We've fired an OC and a DC in Miller's time here.

Nowhere in there does it mention anything about particular personnel or plays.

We agree that Miller needs to provide direction, and you should certainly be able to agree that direction should be provided now. Either that, or are you saying that you really like the 3 yard pass offence on 2nd down and the "tight" coverage that Carmichael has provided so far?

We have yet to see evidence of a change in the patterns from last year to this. If Miller is doing his job, going forward we should see changes to those patterns. We'll get to see where things go soon enough. Hopefully it is in the right direction.

 

[TheSource]

30 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

But do you think that Mike O'Shea can't see the problems that this team has? Cause I guarantee he sees every single one of them AND he seems more than we do too. He's got a hell of a lot more information than we do. 

 

Based on his comments recently, he seems happy with the offence the way it is on paper. So far we are getting the usual "we just need to execute better" spiel. This does not sound like a man who recognizes the problems, or at least not someone who is ready to admit them.

 

[JuranBoldenRules]

1 minute ago, TheSource said:

Nowhere in there does it mention anything about particular personnel or plays.

We agree that Miller needs to provide direction, and you should certainly be able to agree that direction should be provided now. Either that, or are you saying that you really like the 3 yard pass offence on 2nd down and the "tight" coverage that Carmichael has provided so far?

We have yet to see evidence of a change in the patterns from last year to this. If Miller is doing his job, going forward we should see changes to those patterns. We'll get to see where things go soon enough. Hopefully it is in the right direction.

 

If a team president micromanaged to that level no coach would work for them, much like if the manager at McDonald's micromanaged the fry salter.  The guy wouldn't leave his basement.

[17to85]

1 minute ago, TheSource said:

 

Based on his comments recently, he seems happy with the offence the way it is on paper. So far we are getting the usual "we just need to execute better" spiel. This does not sound like a man who recognizes the problems, or at least not someone who is ready to admit them.

 

Ahh yes, the old coaching should be done through the media, no wonder you want the president to micromanage everything. Maybe you really are Mike Kelly cause he used to do all that stupid **** too, and look where his career went. 

[Mr Dee]

The trinity we have in charge now is on a much higher platform that we've seen in these parts in a long, long time. They know their jobs, and are doing their jobs. We are in a very competitive division at this point, but I don't think that has stopped these guys from trying to assemble a Championship team. 

Trust me, nobody would be happier than these guys to accomplish that goal.

[JuranBoldenRules]

4 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

The trinity we have in charge now is on a much higher platform that we've seen in these parts in a long, long time. They know their jobs, and are doing their jobs. We are in a very competitive division at this point, but I don't think that has stopped these guys from trying to assemble a Championship team. 

Trust me, nobody would be happier than these guys to accomplish that goal.

They need to find/develop a QB.

[Mr Dee]

2 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

They need to find/develop a QB.

That should be a motto hanging over each of their desks..

[TheSource]

1 minute ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

If a team president micromanaged to that level no coach would work for them, much like if the manager at McDonald's micromanaged the fry salter.  The guy wouldn't leave his basement.

 

Where is this notion that any given level of an organization should be completely "hands off" in a very literal sense coming from? There has to be accountability in an organization from top to bottom. If not, then its broken.

Giving overall direction and providing feedback on data such as if the product is appealing to the fans is well within the mandate of the president. It would only be micromanaging if you go into details. Nowhere have I stated that Miller should tell Walters or his staff how to fix the problems. He should however be passing along feedback from the fan base and doing long range planning to improve the organization.

And I'm old school. If I'm the manager at McDonalds and the fry guy does not want to attend my weekly meetings to discuss the monthly marketing strategies and how the team is going to meet them, then he should stay home in his basement permanently. I guess that explains why customer service in retail is so terrible now.

 

[Guest J5V]

5 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Well thankfully the GM and team president are both on the same page with regards to the coach, Wade Miller is not likely to pull a Bauer and fire MOS to put in an old crony. 

Yes, thankfully the GM and team president are both on the same page with regards to the coach's decisions to try 61 yd FGs, make ill-advised 3rd down gambles, stumble and fumble his way through the games not knowing when to call time-outs and throw the challenge flag, and his apparent inability to get 60 minutes of football out of his players while remaining fiercely loyal to the worst of them as long as they're "working hard". That's the recipe for success right there. Hell, we should lock him up for the next 10 years if we can! 

[Mr Dee]

2 minutes ago, J5V said:

Yes, thankfully the GM and team president are both on the same page with regards to the coach's decisions to try 61 yd FGs, make ill-advised 3rd down gambles, stumble and fumble his way through the games not knowing when to call time-outs and throw the challenge flag, and his apparent inability to get 60 minutes of football out of his players while remaining fiercely loyal to the worst of them as long as they're "working hard". That's the recipe for success right there. Hell, we should lock him up for the next 10 years if we can! 

N.W.O.A.R.

[yogi]

48 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

But do you think that Mike O'Shea can't see the problems that this team has? Cause I guarantee he sees every single one of them AND he seems more than we do too. He's got a hell of a lot more information than we do. 

Are you telling me O'Shea doesn't get all his info on the team via Tweets posted on this board and by watching 1 game a week? But that's all you need to make personnel decisions for a CFL team!

[yogi]

18 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

If a team president micromanaged to that level no coach would work for them, much like if the manager at McDonald's micromanaged the fry salter.  The guy wouldn't leave his basement.

Do you have inside knowledge of why TheSource has so much time to post all the sudden or something?

[Brandon]

O'Shea is safe for a few more years....  I don't see any way they cut him loose.    Maybe... just maybe they won't give up on a guy who still is very early in his coaching career.   It's learning experiences... now if he doesn't learn from the experiences and keeps making the same mistake then maybe Wade will grow sour of him. 

I see O'Shea here for a long long time.

[SPuDS]

30 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

They need to find/develop a QB.

you'd think that this would be priority number 1 seeing as Nichols is not the answer.. I'm not sure if Davis is either tbh.  getting a home sourced qb should be a priority in the next off-season (or finding one and bringing him in mid-season) as Nichols, I believe anyway, has plateau'd.  I'm ok with that.. he is what he is, a game managing QB who should be able to bring us wins.   He looks capable of winning on his own as well if push comes to shove BUT does lack some of the intangibles that a legit next level QB has..

[Atomic]

58 minutes ago, TheSource said:

Nowhere in there does it mention anything about particular personnel or plays.

We agree that Miller needs to provide direction, and you should certainly be able to agree that direction should be provided now. Either that, or are you saying that you really like the 3 yard pass offence on 2nd down and the "tight" coverage that Carmichael has provided so far?

We have yet to see evidence of a change in the patterns from last year to this. If Miller is doing his job, going forward we should see changes to those patterns. We'll get to see where things go soon enough. Hopefully it is in the right direction.

No.  If Miller doesn't like Lapo's offence then he can tell Walters or O'Shea.  And they can choose to listen or not.  If they choose not to, and the team suffers for it, then Miller can make the decision to let them go.  What Miller CAN'T do, is tell Lapo what plays to call or how to design plays.  Then he is micromanaging.  Then there is no point in even having an OC because he has no latitude to do what he thinks is correct.

Similarly Miller can tell O'Shea "Hey, Carmichael isn't working out."  And O'Shea can choose to listen, or not.  And if it costs us games, that's on O'Shea and again, Miller can decide to let him go.  But he can't tell O'Shea which players should be playing because again, that is micro-managing, that is not the role of the president, and it's effectively cutting off O'Shea's ability to coach.

You're old-school.  That's fine.  But there's a reason old-school is old-school.  Because it's deprecated.  Extinct.  Gone.  The guy in your avatar was old school too.  And where is he now?

[TheSource]

2 minutes ago, Atomic said:

No.  If Miller doesn't like Lapo's offence then he can tell Walters or O'Shea.  And they can choose to listen or not.  If they choose not to, and the team suffers for it, then Miller can make the decision to let them go.  What Miller CAN'T do, is tell Lapo what plays to call or how to design plays.  Then he is micromanaging.  Then there is no point in even having an OC because he has no latitude to do what he thinks is correct.

Similarly Miller can tell O'Shea "Hey, Carmichael isn't working out."  And O'Shea can choose to listen, or not.  And if it costs us games, that's on O'Shea and again, Miller can decide to let him go.  But he can't tell O'Shea which players should be playing because again, that is micro-managing, that is not the role of the president, and it's effectively cutting off O'Shea's ability to coach.

You're old-school.  That's fine.  But there's a reason old-school is old-school.  Because it's deprecated.  Extinct.  Gone.  The guy in your avatar was old school too.  And where is he now?

 

We'll see shortly where all the so-called "new age" thinking is taking us.

BTW, Wally Buono, the coach who just stole this team's lunch money is an old school kinda guy too.

Seems his style is still far from "deprecated".

 

[blue_gold_84]

8 minutes ago, TheSource said:

We'll see shortly where all the so-called "new age" thinking is taking us.

BTW, Wally Buono, the coach who just stole this team's lunch money is an old school kinda guy too.

Seems his style is still far from "deprecated".

He also knows how to adapt and not be a stubborn old plug set in his ways. Of course you wouldn't mention that, though.

Micro-managing doesn't work. Miller has his own job to do, anyway.

Furthermore, the fact you'd even compare O'Shea and Buono on the same terms is just baffling.

[Atomic]

9 minutes ago, TheSource said:

We'll see shortly where all the so-called "new age" thinking is taking us.

BTW, Wally Buono, the coach who just stole this team's lunch money is an old school kinda guy too.

Seems his style is still far from "deprecated".

Yeah he beat us by 3 points.  And since you seem to be so fixated on how far into the Walters/Miller regime we are, Buono has had 15 years.  And he can only beat us by 3 points!  Pretty sad, really.