Matt Nichols, Elite quarterback?

[Atomic]

20 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

This is a big point. Personally I have trouble remembering a time when the league had 3 what i would call elite QBs. I certainly dont remember a time that had more then that. But I think you gotta set the break point high, and based on individual performance.  I think if you have to question or debate if a QB is elite, they almost certainly arent. No argument over ACs run as an elite qb etc. 

There was a period of time when Calvillo, Ray, and Burris were the elite QBs in the CFL. 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 minutes ago, Atomic said:

There was a period of time when Calvillo, Ray, and Burris were the elite QBs in the CFL. 

Never considered Burris an elite qb.  Not with all the choke jobs he did in the playoffs. 

[wbbfan]

3 minutes ago, Atomic said:

There was a period of time when Calvillo, Ray, and Burris were the elite QBs in the CFL. 

Yeah that makes sense. Though im a member of the hank haters. Thats gotta be about as good as it gets. Personally, Id take a either ray or calvillo over hank any day of the week. Even at hanks best and averaged out ray + AC. Not even close. 

[wbbfan]

4 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Never considered Burris an elite qb.  Not with all the choke jobs he did in the playoffs. 

Ya, and late in games. But no question he had a few seasons of elite production level. And unlike harris now, his teams made the play offs a lot. Course he was on drastically better teams. I dont fault any one for considering him elite at times. If any thing AC and ray were elite of elites. 2 of the top 4 or 5 qbs in history imop. If they werent in the league at all hank would have been the best QB for a whole bunch of years.  

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, wbbfan said:

Ya, and late in games. But no question he had a few seasons of elite production level. And unlike harris now, his teams made the play offs a lot. Course he was on drastically better teams. I dont fault any one for considering him elite at times. If any thing AC and ray were elite of elites. 2 of the top 4 or 5 qbs in history imop. If they werent in the league at all hank would have been the best QB for a whole bunch of years.  

Hank had two great playoff runs. In 2008 & last season. Other than that, he threw for a lot of yards but choked a whole lot of times (almost every season) before & in between.  To me, that's not elite. 

[Atomic]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Hank had two great playoff runs. In 2008 & last season. Other than that, he threw for a lot of yards but choked a whole lot of times (almost every season) before & in between.  To me, that's not elite. 

He is one of the all-time greats, IMO

[wbbfan]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Hank had two great playoff runs. In 2008 & last season. Other than that, he threw for a lot of yards but choked a whole lot of times (almost every season) before & in between.  To me, that's not elite. 

Yeah id tend to side with you. Maybe hes as good as a none elite QB gets. Its that edge of greatness. Like harris again. I dont factor wins into qb stats. Because you cant look back and see a team win, and its football not baseball. You never have 1 guy against the other team so 1 guy doesnt win, even on one side of the ball. 1 guy choking does factor into it though imo. I can see why people would call him elite. Hes like harris with more wins. But both are sub elite to me. 

[wbbfan]

9 minutes ago, Atomic said:

He is one of the all-time greats, IMO

I dont think he is close to the likes of moon, ac, flutie or ray. As far as greats go he could slot in with mcmanus, damon allen, etc imo.

[Atomic]

Just now, wbbfan said:

I dont think he is close to the likes of moon, ac, flutie or ray. As far as greats go he could slot in with mcmanus, damon allen, etc imo.

I'm not sure Ricky Ray belongs with those other 3 names either

[SpeedFlex27]

7 minutes ago, Atomic said:

He is one of the all-time greats, IMO

If hank  was the Bomber qb & you had all those great teams racking up anywhere from 11 to 14 wins every year as well as the odds on favourite to be CFL GC champions yearly but had to endure all the chokes he had as a Stampeder I think you'd feel differently.  When he left the Stamps a lot of fans would have happily volunteered to drive him to the YYC International Airport. His legacy in Calgary isn't winning the 1 championships but how many championships he didn't win. 

[wbbfan]

Just now, Atomic said:

I'm not sure Ricky Ray belongs with those other 3 names either

Hes at the back end of those groups. But imo had less to work with on offense then most of those guys. I do consider him to be in the top tier for sure though. Its a balance of personal dominance, and surrounding pieces. If ray was on those loaded als teams, or the great schmoes teams I think you get the same out come and production. If hank was on em, those teams do worse. 

[wbbfan]

1 minute ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

If hank  was the Bomber qb & you had all those great teams racking up anywhere from 11 to 14 wins every year as well as the odds on favourite to be CFL GC champions yearly but had to endure all the chokes he had as a Stampeder I think you'd feel differently.  When he left the Stamps a lot of fans would have happily volunteered to drive him to the YYC International Airport. His legacy in Calgary isn't winning the 1 championships but how many championships he didn't win. 

I think thats called kevin glenn syndrome . 

[SpeedFlex27]

4 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I dont think he is close to the likes of moon, ac, flutie or ray. As far as greats go he could slot in with mcmanus, damon allen, etc imo.

Nah, he can't hang with the likes of Parker, Flutie, Ploen, Jackson, Moon, Wilkinson & other multi GC champions. He can hang with the guys you mention. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, wbbfan said:

I think thats called kevin glenn syndrome . 

Except Hank won twice but agreed. 

[wbbfan]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

Nah, he can't hang with the likes of Parker, Ploen, Jackson, Moon, Wilkinson & other multi GC champions. He can hang with the guys you mention. 

A few of those are before my time (and crossing big football generations is tough as well) Dont think he hangs with ac either for sure. As much as i hated the als AC was as good as it gets in the modern era imo. 

[wbbfan]

1 minute ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Except Hank won twice but agreed. 

Wasnt he the back up for the first one iirc? The jeff garcia era. Or was that a 3rd? Hank>glenn for sure. Its the great but not great enough thing. Which is funny, in that khari is exempt for that. Shorter term QBs who flame out earlier seem to get that though. 

[SpeedFlex27]

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Hes at the back end of those groups. But imo had less to work with on offense then most of those guys. I do consider him to be in the top tier for sure though. Its a balance of personal dominance, and surrounding pieces. If ray was on those loaded als teams, or the great schmoes teams I think you get the same out come and production. If hank was on em, those teams do worse. 

I think Mike Reilly gets a lot of undue credit as a truly elite CFL qb. He's a warrior, no question but how many times have we seen him throw a football either into a crowd or deep & his receivers make the impossible circus catch? every freaking game.  Does that make him elite or does he have elite receivers? His receivers make Reilly look a lot better than he is as a qb, I think. That being said, he can put the Eskimos on his back & carry them. So, elite?? Yeah, I'll give him that. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, wbbfan said:

Wasnt he the back up for the first one iirc? The jeff garcia era. Or was that a 3rd? Hank>glenn for sure. Its the great but not great enough thing. Which is funny, in that khari is exempt for that. Shorter term QBs who flame out earlier seem to get that though. 

Third. He was injured. Had a knee injury. I think he was number three at the time with the Stamps before he went to the Riders. 

[SpeedFlex27]

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

A few of those are before my time (and crossing big football generations is tough as well) Dont think he hangs with ac either for sure. As much as i hated the als AC was as good as it gets in the modern era imo. 

Smart, smart qb. Not the greatest athletically but he had a super quick release & man was he accurate with the mid range passes. Trestman designed a system where his quick release thrived.  You can see it in Toronto with Ray. Trouble is, the Argos defense isn't in the same class as the one Marc had in Montreal. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[wbbfan]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

I think Mike Reilly gets a lot of undue credit as a truly elite CFL qb. he's a warrior, no question but how many times have we seen him throw a football either into a crowd or deep & his receivers make the impossible circus catch. Does that make him elite or does he have elite receivers? His receivers make Reilly look a lot better than he is as a qb, I think. that being said, he can put the Eskimos on his back & carry them. So, elite?? Yeah, I'll give him that. 

In general gun slinging QBs who win get a lot of love. Even more so in the cfl. Takes alot of gusto to risk passes and let wrs make a play. 

Bowman was maybe the least reliable starter wr last in the last few years. He drops soo many.  When you look at guys leaving, disappearing, others coming in and exploding like hazelton and zylstra I dont think id say he is carried by elite WRs. Id say he gives his WRs lots of chances to make plays, and brings the best out of his guys. 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, wbbfan said:

In general gun slinging QBs who win get a lot of love. Even more so in the cfl. Takes alot of gusto to risk passes and let wrs make a play. 

Bowman was maybe the least reliable starter wr last in the last few years. He drops soo many.  When you look at guys leaving, disappearing, others coming in and exploding like hazelton and zylstra I dont think id say he is carried by elite WRs. Id say he gives his WRs lots of chances to make plays, and brings the best out of his guys. 

Esks don't even miss Bowman.  I don't know if he even gets back into the lineup when he's healthy. They could release him,  save money under the cap & keep going like it was nothing. Would you take out someone like Hazelton, Williams or Zylstra (when both healthy)to put Bowman in? I wouldn't. 

[wbbfan]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Third. He was injured. Had a knee injury. I think he was number three at the time with the Stamps before he went to the Riders. 

Ahh that makes sense. I remembered he had the 1 asterisk ring. 

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Smart, smart qb. Not the greatest athletically but he had a super quick release & man was he accurate with the mid range passes. Trestman designed a system where his quick release thrived.  

Which is funny because at one point he was more of a scrambler guy. Every once and a while a qb like that ages and stays more in the pocket and plays his best. Same with allen imo. 

Ac was great well before trestman. And they ran a similar offense. trestman sure fine tuned ac and the offense though. I mean ac/don/trestman created the meta for offensive systems in the cfl today. When ac broke out with the als it was a ton of 2 back sets, Hback/TE play etc. I remember us, and lots of teams trying to roll double tight against their cover 0.  Old american pro form offenses. They really broke the mold and set the new standard. 

Older AC is the prototype of what you would want your qb to be to win a grey cup. But not really what teams seem to look for sadly. 

[wbbfan]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Esks don't even miss Bowman.  I don't know if he even gets back into the lineup when he's healthy. They could release him,  save money under the cap & keep going like it was nothing. Would you take out someone like Hazelton, Williams or Zylstra (when both healthy)to put Bowman in? I wouldn't. 

Also not a bowman fan at all. I would probably try to trade him. If jones still has a job he could net the first over all pick next year i imagine. 

I like that combo too, but how great are those guys and how much better does reily make em? Last year when the argos cut their wrs hazelton wasnt the guy people wanted iirc. Despite his size and the forums obsession with big wrs. That place is a puppy mill for WRs. I wouldnt want to pay a steep price for any of em, even though they are certainly very good football players. 

[SpeedFlex27]

3 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Ahh that makes sense. I remembered he had the 1 asterisk ring. 

Which is funny because at one point he was more of a scrambler guy. Every once and a while a qb like that ages and stays more in the pocket and plays his best. Same with allen imo. 

Ac was great well before trestman. And they ran a similar offense. trestman sure fine tuned ac and the offense though. I mean ac/don/trestman created the meta for offensive systems in the cfl today. When ac broke out with the als it was a ton of 2 back sets, Hback/TE play etc. I remember us, and lots of teams trying to roll double tight against their cover 0.  Old american pro form offenses. They really broke the mold and set the new standard. 

Older AC is the prototype of what you would want your qb to be to win a grey cup. But not really what teams seem to look for sadly. 

AC had intelligence going for him as well as being the crafty veteran that he was. if you're a Ti cat fan, it must've been hard to watch him kick your team's ass continually for over a decade after the fans there literally drove him out of town thinking he was finished.

[SpeedFlex27]

2 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Also not a bowman fan at all. I would probably try to trade him. If jones still has a job he could net the first over all pick next year i imagine. 

I like that combo too, but how great are those guys and how much better does reily make em? Last year when the argos cut their wrs hazelton wasnt the guy people wanted iirc. Despite his size and the forums obsession with big wrs. That place is a puppy mill for WRs. I wouldnt want to pay a steep price for any of em, even though they are certainly very good football players. 

I still think we gave upon Gurley too early & he never got a chance to show what he was about when he was a Blue Bomber. I know the RedBlacks cut him but he was pretty sour after his experiences with the Argos & here. That may have been a part of it.