Lions @ Rodblacks / Argos @ Stampeders

[USABomberfan]

I'll tell ya one thing though, if there was a defensive coordinator of the year award Devone Claybrooks would win it every time.

[Jpan85]

2 minutes ago, USABomberfan said:

I'll tell ya one thing though, if there was a defensive coordinator of the year award Devone Claybrooks would win it every time.

But his hat is on crooked 

[USABomberfan]

1 minute ago, Jpan85 said:

But his hat is on crooked 

Well, it's done more good than Benevides wearing his backwards

[Noeller]

7 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

But his hat is on crooked 

That is a big problem.... But he's still a good DC. 

Stamps and Argos both look like ****. All's I know is, Bombers would be kickin some major ass about now... 

[USABomberfan]

5 minutes ago, Noeller said:

That is a big problem.... But he's still a good DC. 

Stamps and Argos both look like ****. All's I know is, Bombers would be kickin some major ass about now... 

Well, I'd like to think, but then again we did only manage 10 points in our lone meeting.  If only Richie Hall would be held to a higher standard.

[Noeller]

5 minutes ago, USABomberfan said:

Well, I'd like to think, but then again we did only manage 10 points in our lone meeting.  If only Richie Hall would be held to a higher standard.

Calgary from our first meeting and Calgary tonight are not the same team... And maybe more importantly, neither are we. #TeamsInDifferentDirections 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Noeller

[USABomberfan]

Just now, Noeller said:

Calgary from our first meeting and Calgary tonight are not the same team... 

On offense with an injured Mitchell maybe not, but on defense they don't give anything easy.  Pretty damn good open field tacklers that team is.

[USABomberfan]

I'll tell ya though, Calgary's gotta rely on Claybrooks big time after that pick 6

[Goalie]

Dont wanna say i told you so about the lions losing so i wont. 

[USABomberfan]

Argos o-line still lookin leaky, what have you to say about that Marcus Brady?

[Mr Dee]

I blame Richie Hall

[SpeedFlex27]

Just to put things into perspective regarding Sam Hurl as our MLB. How different would our defense be with Alex Singleton? Fourth in CFL with tackles. 

[Noeller]

Re: MLB, you have no way of knowing how much scheme/system plays into the difference in stats between them. 

As for this game, as long as the Stamps OL gives BLM time, he will tear apart any team, anywhere, any time.... 

[SpeedFlex27]

8 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Re: MLB, you have no way of knowing how much scheme/system plays into the difference in stats between them. 

As for this game, as long as the Stamps OL gives BLM time, he will tear apart any team, anywhere, any time.... 

Schemes & systems really don't mean much if you don't have the players who can  play well in them. A system means you find players who do fit well athletically for those schemes. Hurl just doesn't have the range to be an effective MLB. He can't make the plays other MLBs can. The Bombers decided in the past off season that a Canadian would play that position due to ratio issues elsewhere so we are forced to live with it.

Edited August 27, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[Jesse]

1 hour ago, USABomberfan said:

I'll tell ya one thing though, if there was a defensive coordinator of the year award Devone Claybrooks would win it every time.

It's only his second season as DC.

He is just another cog in the Dynasty of Hufnagel's Stampeders. 

[bustamente]

Sure would be nice to have a Bear Woods type of MLB on our team, you know someone who knows how to play the position.

[Mr Dee]

I guess it's time to run the Lawless article from July 2015 regarding Hurl...(slinginsammy @ TEP)

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/sports/football/bombers/The-Cowboy-Formation-318470931.html   (Paywall)

On the post game show D Brown did acknowledge that Hurl was the "weakest link" on this D.  It is what it is...If we're starting Thomas at D Tackle instead of Johnson on a go forward basis, we don't need to continue starting a Nat at MLB...but this scheme doesn't expect the MLB to be a playmaker...here's the content of the Lawless article (July 24 2015) Aards refers to above...

"Future Hall of Famer and Blue Bombers head coach Mike O'Shea, who played middle linebacker in the CFL for 16 years, should know something about the position. He and defensive co-ordinator Richie Hall keep starting Sam Hurl in this critical spot despite a mounting wave of public criticism. So, who is right? The coaches or the fans?

First it was my neighbour telling me he didn't think much of Hurl's play. Then came radio callers, also piling on Hurl. The kid just can't play, they said. Hurl pales in comparison to legends such as Greg Battle, went the refrain.

The balance sheet just didn't add up. Hurl's stats ? 13 tackles and zero sacks through four games, averaging just over three tackles per game ? don't even top his team and are nowhere near the league leaders. Teammate and fellow linebacker Khalil Bass has 19 tackles and two sacks. Shouldn't O'Shea move him into the middle? What's he waiting for?

So I asked if O'Shea would speak to me about Hurl. And would he go even further and support his words with film?

The head coach agreed and I was told to be in front of the Bombers Store at 7:30 a.m. on Thursday.

A Bombers staffer met me and walked me to O'Shea's office. Players were streaming in and lining up for the hot breakfast served by the club. Coaches were already in their offices watching film and prepping for positional meetings and practice.

O'Shea motioned for me to sit in a chair alongside his desk and he positioned himself on one of those yoga balls with remote in hand. And then he rolled film. Play after play after play. Stopping and starting. Pointing out footwork, hand position and pad level. But most of all, he focused on where Hurl started most plays, what was his assignment on the play and how did he execute.

First, I asked: How is Hurl playing?

"We're playing a defence where accountability is key and there's not a lot of flash in accountability. It's a defence where every player is responsible for his gap. Sam grades out well every week. He understands his responsibilities and he fulfils them," said O'Shea. "He's disciplined, uses his hands well and he understands that controlling the offence is keyed by filling the gaps. He does what we ask him to do."

Fair enough. But as the writing adage goes, "show me, don't tell me."

The clips show Hurl rarely lines up in the traditional spot four yards off the line of scrimmage and in the middle of the defensive formation. In fact, in the "Cowboy" formation which the Bombers utilize in the majority of run situations determined by down and distance, the middle linebacker (Mac) or Hurl in this case, is often just off the line of scrimmage with the responsibility of stepping into a gap. On many plays, Hurl's job is to take on the offensive guard or tackle and control the area that player is trying to open up for a running play.

Bass, on the weak side (Will) or Chris Randle, on the strong side (Sam), line up deeper and don't engage offensive lineman on the line of scrimmage. They have more freedom to chase the ball carrier and amass more tackles than Hurl. So do defensive backs Bruce Johnson and Matt Bucknor.

"Playing the Mac linebacker in the defence we're using, where we use a Cowboy formation and he's just off the line of scrimmage as often as he is, (Hurl) isn't being put in a glory position," said O'Shea.

O'Shea rolled through every game the Bombers have played this season, showing a handful of plays from each in a 30-minute session. A number showed Hurl taking on an offensive lineman at the point of attack and giving up in excess of 70 pounds in the fight. Did he make a bunch of impactful strikes and tackles for losses? No. But far more often than not, he fulfilled his responsibility.

The takeaway for me: Hurl is being asked to fill a role and he's succeeding within those parameters.

Hurl is not being utilized like middle linebackers in other systems. B.C. Lions linebacker Solomon Elimimian has 21 tackles in three games and finished last year with 143. But he's what they call a "hat on the ball" linebacker. He's freed up to chase and scrape up the ball carrier after others have knocked down the blocking.

Many of us have the image of a big game from a linebacker containing a stats line with 10 tackles or more.

Well, first of all, if half those stops come after substantial gains the statistic is fundamentally misleading. Secondly, it's just not a typical result for a middle linebacker playing under Hall and his current philosophy.

Hall's middle linebackers during his last two seasons with the Saskatchewan Roughriders had similar numbers to what Hurl has put together so far this season. In 2014, when the Riders didn't post strong numbers as a defence, Brian Peters took most of the snaps at middle linebacker and finished with 78 tackles. In 2013, when the Riders won the Grey Cup and had one of the stingiest defences in the league, Rey Williams and Mike McCullough shared the middle linebacker job and combined for 66 tackles.

"The game has changed and more and more, defence is about a concept and every player on the field buying in," said an East Division general manager. "There are still impact players on defence, but coaches want a player with no missed assignments at the end of the game. A guy might be good for a home run every now and again but if he's abdicating his responsibility to look good on TV, he's likely hurting you more than he's helping you. We don't want players who take risks to make plays. I want players that make plays in the act of doing what they are supposed to do and checking off their responsibilities."

The defence isn't built around Hurl and his abilities, he's just a cog put in place by Hall and O'Shea. Maybe if the Bombers had elite personnel such as Elimimian they would change their system to suit the player. But this is a defence built on a team concept.

"Sometimes being a middle linebacker requires sacrifice and Hurl is doing a job right now which requires him to be selfless at times," said O'Shea.

Take a look at O'Shea's career and you'll see a 95-tackle season in 1994 with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Then a 44-tackle season in 1997 with the Toronto Argonauts as a member of one of the best defences the CFL has seen in the last 50 years.

Argos coach Don Matthews employed a lot of Cowboy formation during back-to-back Grey Cup champion seasons in 1996 and 1997. O'Shea went from a roaming chase-the-ball backer with the Tiger-Cats to lining up on top of the centre and grinding it out in the pit with the Argos. His tackle totals were cut in half but his fingers took on two new rings.

The book on Hurl is still out and it's unlikely he's the CFL's next great linebacker.

Is he a competent middle linebacker? Four games is too early to tell. But judging him against the images we have of Battle or even Elimimian is specious.

They don't do the same job. Even if the name says they do

[SPuDS]

1 hour ago, Mr Dee said:

First, I asked: How is Hurl playing?

"We're playing a defence where accountability is key and there's not a lot of flash in accountability. It's a defence where every player is responsible for his gap. Sam grades out well every week. He understands his responsibilities and he fulfils them," said O'Shea. "He's disciplined, uses his hands well and he understands that controlling the offence is keyed by filling the gaps. He does what we ask him to do."

Fair enough. But as the writing adage goes, "show me, don't tell me."

The clips show Hurl rarely lines up in the traditional spot four yards off the line of scrimmage and in the middle of the defensive formation. In fact, in the "Cowboy" formation which the Bombers utilize in the majority of run situations determined by down and distance, the middle linebacker (Mac) or Hurl in this case, is often just off the line of scrimmage with the responsibility of stepping into a gap. On many plays, Hurl's job is to take on the offensive guard or tackle and control the area that player is trying to open up for a running play.

Bass, on the weak side (Will) or Chris Randle, on the strong side (Sam), line up deeper and don't engage offensive lineman on the line of scrimmage. They have more freedom to chase the ball carrier and amass more tackles than Hurl. So do defensive backs Bruce Johnson and Matt Bucknor.

"Playing the Mac linebacker in the defence we're using, where we use a Cowboy formation and he's just off the line of scrimmage as often as he is, (Hurl) isn't being put in a glory position," said O'Shea.

O'Shea rolled through every game the Bombers have played this season, showing a handful of plays from each in a 30-minute session. A number showed Hurl taking on an offensive lineman at the point of attack and giving up in excess of 70 pounds in the fight. Did he make a bunch of impactful strikes and tackles for losses? No. But far more often than not, he fulfilled his responsibility.

The takeaway for me: Hurl is being asked to fill a role and he's succeeding within those parameters.

Hurl is not being utilized like middle linebackers in other systems. B.C. Lions linebacker Solomon Elimimian has 21 tackles in three games and finished last year with 143. But he's what they call a "hat on the ball" linebacker. He's freed up to chase and scrape up the ball carrier after others have knocked down the blocking.

Many of us have the image of a big game from a linebacker containing a stats line with 10 tackles or more.

Well, first of all, if half those stops come after substantial gains the statistic is fundamentally misleading. Secondly, it's just not a typical result for a middle linebacker playing under Hall and his current philosophy.

Hall's middle linebackers during his last two seasons with the Saskatchewan Roughriders had similar numbers to what Hurl has put together so far this season. In 2014, when the Riders didn't post strong numbers as a defence, Brian Peters took most of the snaps at middle linebacker and finished with 78 tackles. In 2013, when the Riders won the Grey Cup and had one of the stingiest defences in the league, Rey Williams and Mike McCullough shared the middle linebacker job and combined for 66 tackles.

"The game has changed and more and more, defence is about a concept and every player on the field buying in," said an East Division general manager. "There are still impact players on defence, but coaches want a player with no missed assignments at the end of the game. A guy might be good for a home run every now and again but if he's abdicating his responsibility to look good on TV, he's likely hurting you more than he's helping you. We don't want players who take risks to make plays. I want players that make plays in the act of doing what they are supposed to do and checking off their responsibilities."

The defence isn't built around Hurl and his abilities, he's just a cog put in place by Hall and O'Shea. Maybe if the Bombers had elite personnel such as Elimimian they would change their system to suit the player. But this is a defence built on a team concept.

"Sometimes being a middle linebacker requires sacrifice and Hurl is doing a job right now which requires him to be selfless at times," said O'Shea.

Take a look at O'Shea's career and you'll see a 95-tackle season in 1994 with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats. Then a 44-tackle season in 1997 with the Toronto Argonauts as a member of one of the best defences the CFL has seen in the last 50 years.

Argos coach Don Matthews employed a lot of Cowboy formation during back-to-back Grey Cup champion seasons in 1996 and 1997. O'Shea went from a roaming chase-the-ball backer with the Tiger-Cats to lining up on top of the centre and grinding it out in the pit with the Argos. His tackle totals were cut in half but his fingers took on two new rings.

The book on Hurl is still out and it's unlikely he's the CFL's next great linebacker.

Is he a competent middle linebacker? Four games is too early to tell. But judging him against the images we have of Battle or even Elimimian is specious.

They don't do the same job. Even if the name says they do

This was mentioned again in a post game 3 weeks ago as well due to the "Hurl is teh sux!" Call in gang.  Oshea reiterated this exact thing.   Sadly not enough people heard I suppose.. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by SPuDS

[17to85]

best part of that is the line about "shouldn't they put Bass inside" and we all spent last season bitching about Bass not being good enough in the middle. 

Take away for me is it's time for people to adjust their expectations of the middle line backer position on this team. Perhaps adjust their expectations from the defense as well since a lot of people want something Ritchie Hall has never done. 

[SpeedFlex27]

But Hurl doesn't play the Cowboy position anymore. In 2017, he lines up as the Mac off the LOS in the traditional Mac position. He isn't just a yard off the LOS anymore between the guard & tackle. His job isn't just  to fill gaps or take on an OL like it was in 2015. His job is to drop & cover an area in pass pro, blitz or fill gaps A & B in run protection or cover the back out of the backfield. The same job other players  such as Reed, Muamba, Woods, Sherritt, Elimimian & Singleton.  He's having a problem doing that. 

Edited August 27, 2017 by SpeedFlex27

[SPuDS]

12 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

But Hurl doesn't play the Cowboy position anymore. In 2017, he lines up as the Mac off the LOS in the traditional Mac position. He isn't just a yard off the LOS anymore between the guard & tackle. His job isn't just  to fill gaps or take on an OL like it was in 2015. His job is to drop & cover an area in pass pro, blitz or fill gaps A & B in run protection or cover the back out of the backfield. The same job other players  such as Reed, Muamba, Woods, Sherritt, Elimimian & Singleton.  He's having a problem doing that. 

Mike oshea in the post game call in show legitimately said the exact thing this article states.. sorry to burst your bubble.   He said "it's not a glory role, what Hurley plays.  He doesn't get the tackles the WIL does hence wild and basses tackle totals.  He is to engage the oline to scrub their blocks and allow other LBs and DBs make the plays and he's doing it well" 

 

So unless Hall changed up the schemes in 3 weeks..

[SpeedFlex27]

I just hope this doesn't cost us a championship. I've nothing against Sam. I just hope this works out. 

[Brandon]

The issue I had was Hurl not being able to make the tackle mainly on Durant...  

[WBBFanWest]

11 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Schemes & systems really don't mean much if you don't have the players who can  play well in them. A system means you find players who do fit well athletically for those schemes. Hurl just doesn't have the range to be an effective MLB. He can't make the plays other MLBs can. The Bombers decided in the past off season that a Canadian would play that position due to ratio issues elsewhere so we are forced to live with it.

7-2

[Noeller]

I'm sincerely curious how you know what Hurl's exact assignments on every single read are, Iso...?