Smoke 'n' Mirrors

[sportmentary2012]

14 hours ago, 17to85 said:

and yet you only choose to ***** and moan after a loss. Which tells me you get angry in the moment and then disappear when there's no reason to get angry. Go rant and rave elsewhere, it's not needed here. 

I'm shocked at your irrational response. We re all Bomber fans here. I'm not ranting and raving. I backed up my concerns with stats. I do believe many of you have BLUEBLIDNERS on and that they are lucky to have won 7 games. They do not dominate teams in fact they usually get off to slow starts and have to come back. I know football is 4 quarters but I would like to see them play a full 4 quarters like Calgary does. The Bombers are a middle of the road team. Good but not great. 

If i am getting such flak for posting my concerns after a loss imagine if I posted my thoughts, which were similar during the win streak! You guys out here who think you are above us lesser post number posters would probably want to send me to Regina! I'm sure you have concerns over the defence and if you were at that Montreal game as I was had thoughts of leaving even if you stayed to the end. I will not stop posting when I have concerns despite your comments.

 

[SPuDS]

Just now, sportmentary2012 said:

I'm shocked at your irrational response. We re all Bomber fans here. I'm not ranting and raving. I backed up my concerns with stats. I do believe many of you have BLUEBLIDNERS on and that they are lucky to have won 7 games. They do not dominate teams in fact they usually get off to slow starts and have to come back. I know football is 4 quarters but I would like to see them play a full 4 quarters like Calgary does. The Bombers are a middle of the road team. Good but not great. 

If i am getting such flak for posting my concerns after a loss imagine if I posted my thoughts, which were similar during the win streak! You guys out here who think you are above us lesser post number posters would probably want to send me to Regina! I'm sure you have concerns over the defence and if you were at that Montreal game as I was had thoughts of leaving even if you stayed to the end. I will not stop posting when I have concerns despite your comments.

 

oh woe is me, someone doesn't agree with me.. 

 

smh. you posted your opinion, people responded to it..  stop crying that someone doesn't agree with you..

 

also, he ain't wrong.. you and others ONLY come around after a loss to complain and then disappear into the void when we win again.

[blue_gold_84]

5 minutes ago, sportmentary2012 said:

I'm shocked at your irrational response. We re all Bomber fans here. I'm not ranting and raving. I backed up my concerns with stats. I do believe many of you have BLUEBLIDNERS on and that they are lucky to have won 7 games. They do not dominate teams in fact they usually get off to slow starts and have to come back. I know football is 4 quarters but I would like to see them play a full 4 quarters like Calgary does. The Bombers are a middle of the road team. Good but not great. 

If i am getting such flak for posting my concerns after a loss imagine if I posted my thoughts, which were similar during the win streak! You guys out here who think you are above us lesser post number posters would probably want to send me to Regina! I'm sure you have concerns over the defence and if you were at that Montreal game as I was had thoughts of leaving even if you stayed to the end. I will not stop posting when I have concerns despite your comments.

 

[sportmentary2012]

Just now, blue_gold_84 said:

Is that a picture of you after they lost last game??

You guys were eitehr bullied in high school so badly that this is your only outlet to get retribution or you were high school bullies who haven't grown up.

I clearly stated I felt the same way during the win streak. Get over yourselves and start watching with an open mind unless of course you are Wade Miller and Mike O'shea in disguise.

 

[Super Duper Negatron]

This board has been intolerable since Sunday.

[blue_gold_84]

2 minutes ago, sportmentary2012 said:

Is that a picture of you after they lost last game??

You guys were eitehr bullied in high school so badly that this is your only outlet to get retribution or you were high school bullies who haven't grown up.

I clearly stated I felt the same way during the win streak. Get over yourselves and start watching with an open mind unless of course you are Wade Miller and Mike O'shea in disguise.

 

LOL

Starts a silly thread. Gets justifiably flamed for it. Proceeds to take personal shots at others who don't agree. Comical.

[SPuDS]

7 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

LOL

Starts a silly thread. Gets justifiably flamed for it. Proceeds to take personal shots at others who don't agree. Comical.

lolol.   yup.  this is hilarious.   gotta love people who can't handle their posts getting critiqued.  Its like they've never internetted before.

[shadybob]

Round 2 will be better, maybe we can fake some injuries and slow them down

Edited September 5, 2017 by shadybob

[sportmentary2012]

15 minutes ago, shadybob said:

Round 2 will be better, maybe we can fake some injuries and slow them down

Finally, a voice of reason. Let us hope it is better and that the guys out here can get over me and my post!

[Noeller]

It's really simple...post something of value, that is level-headed and rational, and you'll be applauded for your efforts, regardless of post count. We always welcome new members that aren't crazy.

[sportmentary2012]

44 minutes ago, Noeller said:

It's really simple...post something of value, that is level-headed and rational, and you'll be applauded for your efforts, regardless of post count. We always welcome new members that aren't crazy.

Understood but I didn't think my post was that out there. I was focused on the defence and how this could have been the outcome during any or all of the games during the win streak because the defence is not good except creating turn overs!

 

[Noeller]

1 minute ago, sportmentary2012 said:

 I didn't think my post was that out there. 

 

And therein lies the problem...

[USABomberfan]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:21 AM, sportmentary2012 said:

I will preface this by saying I would be happy with a series split and I've not lost all hope because of one loss BUT one has to admit that this team has been winning with smoke and mirros and at times inspite of some glaring deficiencies. I think it takes character and luck to win close games, which they have done this year and the show they can compete but this is a 7-3 team built on unstable ground starting with a stubborn coach, questionable defensive scheme and talent , mediocre special teams and an offence without a true play making receiver plus baffling play calls (I.e) jump ball to Denmark when it wasn't necessary nor is it the type of catch he ever makes.

My bottom line is that this record is deceiving and this team while competitive could easily be 3-7 and next week will show their true colours.

Disagree with everything except the defensive scheme part, and this post is a bit of a reach trying to go after the offense.

While I certainly hope we pull a reverse on SSK and win the rubber match, losing it is not going to end the season as some predict.  It's not like we were going to go 16-2 anyway, so I call much of this nonsense.

Now I will say the defense and Richie Hall should be called out because if there is but one thing keeping us from winning the cup, it'd be that group. 

But this whole "we could be 3-7" crap gets old because you could say the same thing about Edmonton, or pick any certain year team that had a record that looked better than their team.

 

Also, you're out to lunch on that whole Nichols interception that was thrown because Ed Gainey is just simply a taller guy than Denmark, and Denmark has made many diving catches in his career so you know little about that.  And by the way thank god we don't have one star WR, we don't need a guy who must have his catches game in and game out.

[Fatty Liver]

5 hours ago, sportmentary2012 said:

I'm shocked at your irrational response. We re all Bomber fans here. I'm not ranting and raving. I backed up my concerns with stats. I do believe many of you have BLUEBLIDNERS on and that they are lucky to have won 7 games. They do not dominate teams in fact they usually get off to slow starts and have to come back. I know football is 4 quarters but I would like to see them play a full 4 quarters like Calgary does. The Bombers are a middle of the road team. Good but not great. 

If i am getting such flak for posting my concerns after a loss imagine if I posted my thoughts, which were similar during the win streak! You guys out here who think you are above us lesser post number posters would probably want to send me to Regina! I'm sure you have concerns over the defence and if you were at that Montreal game as I was had thoughts of leaving even if you stayed to the end. I will not stop posting when I have concerns despite your comments.

 

How much less would a poster post, if a lesser poster posted less?

 

Doesn't really work but wth.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Throw Long Bannatyne

[HarryCarayGary]

On 9/4/2017 at 8:10 AM, deepsixemtoboyd said:

 What happened yesterday can hardly be considered surprising on any front. I have been a Bomber fan since the late 70s, and even when we have had dominant teams  and the riders have been abysmal  – see the entire decade of the 80's -  we have tended to lose and even get smoked on Labour Day. 

 That said, I will repeat the obvious, stated here and elsewhere by many posters, for my own self–cathartic reasons:  We have a strong, steady, though non-explosive offense.   That offense has and will continue to put up points though isn't a group that will ever strike a deep fear in the hearts of defenses. They are more a get it done/lunchbucket crew.  And, as such, they are good enough: good enough to make the playoffs, and possibly push into them, even win the big prize. 

If...

If they were supported by a even average defense. Which they are not.  

Our defense frequently has inadequate pressure/push, a linebacking corps which is 2/3 inadequate, and a porous bend and break secondary.   I believe we have given up an average of approximately 30 points per game. And that, folks, just ain't gonna get it done. 

 It is simply unrealistic to expect  our steady but unspectacular offence to bail out a weak defence every week. So, going into the LDC – an extremely hostile environment – it really was asking a lot to get another Houdini moment. 

 Finally, until the blue bombers acknowledge the core problem on defence – and I don't know whether it is schemes or personnel or both – this team will not be a serious contender to end the longest championship drought in blue bombers history. 

 

Yeah, I remember 7117.  I mean it was a 7-1 team against a 1-7 team, so if there was ever a time to walk away with a win it was was pretty crushing (though not as bad as the next year's).  The game and its rematch are intense, and records seem to mean very little going into them each time.

[Eternal optimist]

On 9/5/2017 at 0:19 PM, sportmentary2012 said:

I'm shocked at your irrational response. We re all Bomber fans here. I'm not ranting and raving. I backed up my concerns with stats. I do believe many of you have BLUEBLIDNERS on and that they are lucky to have won 7 games. They do not dominate teams in fact they usually get off to slow starts and have to come back. I know football is 4 quarters but I would like to see them play a full 4 quarters like Calgary does. The Bombers are a middle of the road team. Good but not great. 

If i am getting such flak for posting my concerns after a loss imagine if I posted my thoughts, which were similar during the win streak! You guys out here who think you are above us lesser post number posters would probably want to send me to Regina! I'm sure you have concerns over the defence and if you were at that Montreal game as I was had thoughts of leaving even if you stayed to the end. I will not stop posting when I have concerns despite your comments.

 

First off, nobody ever deserves this punishment. Ever. 

Secondly, I understand your gripe with the our defensive struggles; but I would argue our league is just having an abundantly offensive year, I've summarized the points per game, by team, below:

Team                                         Points per game
Calgary (8-1-1)                           18.70
Ottawa (4-6-1)                           25.00
Saskatchewan (5-4)                25.22
Toronto (4-7)                              25.27
Montreal (3-7)                            26.30
League average                        27.19
B.C. (5-5)                                      27.40
Edmonton (7-3)                       29.50
Winnipeg (7-3)                        31.60
Hamilton (1-8)                         36.89

(source: http://www.oddsshark.com/cfl/defensive-stats)

So, based on this - Winnipeg, on average, gives up 1 field goal more than the  league average. It's also interesting that 3 of the "better" teams in the west (us, B.C. and Edmonton) all give up more points per game than the league average, yet have some of the better records in the league. Not sure if its valid, but it'd be interesting to see the points per game of the eastern teams versus western opponents, since I'm fairly certain that some of the low-scoring east-east affairs have caused their numbers to be artificially low (such as the Als 21-9 win over the Argos).

Edited September 7, 2017 by Eternal optimist
typo

[James]

18 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

First off, nobody ever deserves this punishment. Ever. 

Secondly, I understand your gripe with the our defensive struggles; but I would argue our league is just having an abundantly offensive year, I've summarized the points per game, by team, below:

Team                                         Points per game
Calgary (8-1-1)                           18.70
Ottawa (4-6-1)                           25.00
Saskatchewan (5-4)                25.22
Toronto (4-7)                              25.27
Montreal (3-7)                            26.30
League average                        27.19
B.C. (5-5)                                      27.40
Edmonton (7-3)                       29.50
Winnipeg (7-3)                        31.60
Hamilton (1-8)                         36.89

(source: http://www.oddsshark.com/cfl/defensive-stats)

So, based on this - Winnipeg, on average, gives up 1 field goal more than the  league average. It's also interesting that 3 of the "better" teams in the west (us, B.C. and Edmonton) all give up more points per game than the league average, yet have some of the better records in the league. Not sure if its valid, but it'd be interesting to see the points per game of the eastern teams versus western opponents, since I'm fairly certain that some of the low-scoring east-east affairs have caused their numbers to be artificially low (such as the Als 21-9 win over the Argos).

4.41 points per game is more than a field goal. I know your name is eternal optimist but your skewing facts to try and make it seem like its not as bad as it is... i could turn around and say our defence gives up 2 times the amount as calgary's.

Our defence is the second worst on the league. Thats the way it is. We need to get better in that area if we are going to make a real run for the cup. Im not expecting a 2011 dominant defnece here. A 2007 top 3 type of defence would be just fine. If we can get our defence in the top 3 we could run with Calgary

[bearpants]

Bend but don't break only works... if you don't break... we have been broken many times...

[Dragon37]

Who has been glossing over the fact that Winnipeg's defense needs to be better? No one. Hell I haven't been happy with our defense for a few years now. They need some pressure up front and have needed back end help for a while. I do think they have the players to do it BUT I don't think they have the schemes to get it done.

We are particularly weak over the middle because our LBs insist, for the most part on being up near the line and getting trapped in that mess rather than hang a few yards off both spying the RB and getting in the passing lanes. On the back end they back way the hell off and hope that their close speed and shoulder tackles are going to work.

As for our offense, they may not be glamorous but they have consistently put up lots of points. I, personally, don't freaking give two craps if they have to dip and dunk or blast it over the top to get the points or if it comes in threes or sixes as long as at the end of the day they have more point on the board than the opposition. The margin of the win might mean something to some fans out there but in the end, whether it is a blow out or a overtime win by a point a team gets two points. 

Win or lose there is always something to fix.

[blue_gold_84]

1 hour ago, bearpants said:

Bend but don't break only works... if you don't break... we have been broken many times...

Agreed. The defense gives up way too many big plays. That's an ongoing issue and Hall can't seem to find a way to remedy it.

I'd love to see a stat sheet showing plays of 20+ yards allowed to compare defenses across the league. I imagine the Bombers would be among the worst in that category, if not the worst.

[SPuDS]

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Agreed. The defense gives up way too many big plays. That's an ongoing issue and Hall can't seem to find a way to remedy it.

I'd love to see a stat sheet showing plays of 20+ yards allowed to compare defenses across the league. I imagine the Bombers would be among the worst in that category, if not the worst.

 

1 hour ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Agreed. The defense gives up way too many big plays. That's an ongoing issue and Hall can't seem to find a way to remedy it.

I'd love to see a stat sheet showing plays of 20+ yards allowed to compare defenses across the league. I imagine the Bombers would be among the worst in that category, if not the worst.

how can you tho?  Its only happening sporadically, not with any regularity and it seems like whenever we have this breakdown occur the opposition just makes a good play.. 

 

nobody is really being victimized anymore like earlier in the season.. I think the most recent "explosive plays" have just been dumb bad luck for us to have a miscue and the opposition QB picks up on it and makes us pay.  these are to be expected tho when running as many rookies as we do in the defense.  Richie always said you can count 1 lost for every rookie you start as they will make mistakes..

[Mark F]

3 hours ago, Dragon37 said:

our LBs insist, for the most part on being up near the line and getting trapped in that mess rather than hang a few yards off

I watched a bit of a video of Bombers v. Argos,  2014, defensive plays only, posted on youtube, under the name Ian Wild, I don't know if it's him or not posting it. Hurl was not playing.

The thing that I noticed right away, was that they had Wild right up at the line, uselessly bashing into an o lineman and bouncing off.

Now Hurl does the same thing.

exactly as you described it.

Hall was not the D coach in 2014.

So I guess it's O'Shea that likes that way of using the linebacker.

 

 

[SPuDS]

Just now, Mark F said:

I watched a bit of a video of Bombers v. Argos,  2014, defensive plays only, posted on youtube, under the name Ian Wild, I don't know if it's him or not posting it. Hurl was not playing.

The thing that I noticed right away, was that they had Wild right up at the line, uselessly bashing into an o lineman and bouncing off.

Now Hurl does the same thing.

exactly as you described it.

Hall was not the D coach in 2014.

So I guess it's O'Shea that likes that way of using the linebacker.

 

 

Etch ran the same style of defense I believe..

 

But ya O'shea was in the same style of defense at a time when he was MLB and said he has Hurl doing the same job here..

[Mark F]

4 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

But ya O'shea was in the same style of defense at a time when he was MLB

 

I guess it's safe to say, that when people are blaming Ritchie Hall for the defence, they're ignoring the fact that O'Shea has a hand in it. Probably a lot more than people tend to think.

But don't want to blame Moss.

I'd be surprised if he just said "here's the Defence Ritchie, whatever you want to do is fine with me".

Just doesn't make sense.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2017 by Mark F
sp

[SPuDS]

Just now, Mark F said:

 

I guess it's safe to say, that when people are blaming Ritchie Hall for the defence, their ignoring the fact that O'Shea has a hand in it. Probably a lot more than people tend to think.

But don't want to blame Moss.

I'd be surprised if he just said "here's the Defence Ritchie, whatever you want to do is fine with me".

Just doesn't make sense.

 

 

I think Hall has always ran a similar defense no matter where he has been and O'shea was in one that was very likely based off the same concepts.   I think its predicated on having a game breaker WIL and SAM and solid DBs who can do both play up in the box AND cover guys.   Why we would bother excluding such a crucial position by turning it into a glorified occupier of space, I'll never know but its what we do and its how O'Shea is cool with our defense being set up.   I think its also a type of defense that relies heavily on everyone knowing their jobs and being where they need to be and when we have breakdowns, they are borderline catastrophic.