When do we fire Richie Hall?

[TBURGESS]

29 minutes ago, Sard said:

You're absolutely right that it's a ridiculous comparison.  That was my point (should have added the <sarcasm> tag.  To say that hiring a "proven winner" would have been the answer is just as ridiculous.  Someone here suggested Tom Higgins should have been hired over O'Shea, but as proven in his last tenure as HC, it didn't work out.  Has the Bombers hired an experienced coach, and it hadn't worked out, everyone on here who is saying O'Shea was the wrong choice would be saying that we shouldn't have hired an old retread who was past his prime, even if he had proven to be successful in the past.

 

Some of you just can be pleased, and unless the Bombers go 18-0 in a season, and shutout their opponents in every game, you won't be happy with what's going on here.  The Bombers are in an excellent place right now... winning seasons, playoff appearances, entertaining and exciting product on the field, and an excellent culture to boot.

The Bombers hire inexperienced HC's (MOS,Burke,PLAP, Kelly, Berry,Hoffman,Reinebold), hoping that they will magically become good and that's part of the problem.  Berry is the only one who is above .500, although MOS should catch him next year. PLAP and Berry are the only ones with playoff wins.

When we hired experienced HC's (Daley, Richie, Murphy), 2 out of 3 were over .500 and Daley was never over .500 either with us or the Riders. 5 Playoff wins and 8 Playoff losses (Going back to '93, not including Murphy's 83-86 stint at HC where he was .659 5 wins and 3 losses in the playoffs).

As I've already pointed out Trestman, C Jones and J Jones turned their teams around very quickly and they started with as bad a team as MOS did.

It's ridiculous to assert that experience doesn't matter. 

It's not that some of us can't be pleased. Most, if not all of us, are happy with the results of the last 2 regular seasons and pissed that we can't win playoff games.  Some of us want to set the bar higher than just regular season wins and that's not too much to ask for after 4 years of this regime. 

[GCn20]

22 hours ago, Noeller said:

I firmly believe we had one this year....when healthy. If we had a healthy roster for that playoff game, we win it...I really and truly believe that.

You're probably right, however, injuries are a part of the game.  The real litmus test of whether a team is a contender or a pretender is how well they do when their depth has to be activated.

[GCn20]

6 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

The Bombers hire inexperienced HC's (MOS,Burke,PLAP, Kelly, Berry,Hoffman,Reinebold), hoping that they will magically become good and that's part of the problem.  Berry is the only one who is above .500, although MOS should catch him next year. PLAP and Berry are the only ones with playoff wins.

When we hired experienced HC's (Daley, Richie, Murphy), 2 out of 3 were over .500 and Daley was never over .500 either with us or the Riders. 5 Playoff wins and 8 Playoff losses (Going back to '93, not including Murphy's 83-86 stint at HC where he was .659 5 wins and 3 losses in the playoffs).

As I've already pointed out Trestman, C Jones and J Jones turned their teams around very quickly and they started with as bad a team as MOS did.

It's ridiculous to assert that experience doesn't matter. 

It's not that some of us can't be pleased. Most, if not all of us, are happy with the results of the last 2 regular seasons and pissed that we can't win playoff games.  Some of us want to set the bar higher than just regular season wins and that's not too much to ask for after 4 years of this regime. 

I agree, year 5 should bring much higher expectations. It's time to put up or ship out.

[Sard]

35 minutes ago, tracker said:

By your logic, Toronto should never have hired either Popp or Trestman and the Lions should have passed on Buono because their previous HC  jobs did not end well. 

27 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

The Bombers hire inexperienced HC's (MOS,Burke,PLAP, Kelly, Berry,Hoffman,Reinebold), hoping that they will magically become good and that's part of the problem.  Berry is the only one who is above .500, although MOS should catch him next year. PLAP and Berry are the only ones with playoff wins.

When we hired experienced HC's (Daley, Richie, Murphy), 2 out of 3 were over .500 and Daley was never over .500 either with us or the Riders. 5 Playoff wins and 8 Playoff losses (Going back to '93, not including Murphy's 83-86 stint at HC where he was .659 5 wins and 3 losses in the playoffs).

As I've already pointed out Trestman, C Jones and J Jones turned their teams around very quickly and they started with as bad a team as MOS did.

It's ridiculous to assert that experience doesn't matter. 

It's not that some of us can't be pleased. Most, if not all of us, are happy with the results of the last 2 regular seasons and pissed that we can't win playoff games.  Some of us want to set the bar higher than just regular season wins and that's not too much to ask for after 4 years of this regime. 

All I'm saying is that there is no magic formula to choosing the HC who will take the team to the Cup and win it.  Hiring experience vs. hiring a new, up and comer doesn't really matter because neither one is a guarantee.

You're suggesting that we should have hired experienced guys like Daley, Richie and Murphy, but how many cups did that get us?

It's also ridiculous to assert that there's no point in taking a shot on a rookie.  By that logic, you should only ever bring in experienced players as well.  <sarcasm>Why would any team ever want to put a rookie player on the field?</sarcasm>  At some point, someone has to take that shot on the rookie and live through any growing pains.  We've done that, and I'm happy that we did.  Even in MOS' first 2 years we struggled, and didn't have a very good record, but it was fun to be at the games and watch the team play.

 

 

[TBURGESS]

4 minutes ago, Sard said:

All I'm saying is that there is no magic formula to choosing the HC who will take the team to the Cup and win it.  Hiring experience vs. hiring a new, up and comer doesn't really matter because neither one is a guarantee.

You're suggesting that we should have hired experienced guys like Daley, Richie and Murphy, but how many cups did that get us?

It's also ridiculous to assert that there's no point in taking a shot on a rookie.  By that logic, you should only ever bring in experienced players as well.  <sarcasm>Why would any team ever want to put a rookie player on the field?</sarcasm>  At some point, someone has to take that shot on the rookie and live through any growing pains.  We've done that, and I'm happy that we did.  Even in MOS' first 2 years we struggled, and didn't have a very good record, but it was fun to be at the games and watch the team play.

There are no guarantees, but that doesn't mean that experience doesn't matter. Just look at the records of the experienced HC's vs the inexperienced ones. There is a better chance to win more games, get into the playoffs and win playoff games with experienced folks.

No one is saying that there's no point in taking a shot on a rookie. I'm saying that a rookie comes with an increased probability of failure and a longer time frame to achieve success. There are 40+ players on the team. Some of them should be rookies. Some should be old vets. Some should be in between. There is 1 HC running things. Like QB, I think that should be an experienced person, for many of the same reasons. 

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, Sard said:

All I'm saying is that there is no magic formula to choosing the HC who will take the team to the Cup and win it.  Hiring experience vs. hiring a new, up and comer doesn't really matter because neither one is a guarantee.

You're suggesting that we should have hired experienced guys like Daley, Richie and Murphy, but how many cups did that get us?

It's also ridiculous to assert that there's no point in taking a shot on a rookie.  By that logic, you should only ever bring in experienced players as well.  <sarcasm>Why would any team ever want to put a rookie player on the field?</sarcasm>  At some point, someone has to take that shot on the rookie and live through any growing pains.  We've done that, and I'm happy that we did.  Even in MOS' first 2 years we struggled, and didn't have a very good record, but it was fun to be at the games and watch the team play.

I did not suggest that only experienced coaches ought to be hired- that would depend on who is available at the moment and what the team they are asked to take over.  There are examples of rookie coaches/Gms doing well, but I would bet that their success rate is way lower than veterans who have had success elsewhere. The Bombers when Sleepy Joe left were in as bad a state as any CFL team in the past. Logic would indicate that bringing in relatively inexperienced (or totally inexperienced, in the case of O'Shea) head coach and GM was a guarantee that the team would struggle, and it has. The thinking that "Gee, we made the playoffs, so that's good enough" gets old real fast- ask the Stampeders. Walters and O'Shea should be as nervous as long-tailed cats in a room full of rocking chairs in 2018. 

[USABomberfan]

19 hours ago, tracker said:

Tom Higgins.

Yeah and ummm ... the way he handled that Rick Worman situation said it all.

[bearpants]

20 hours ago, J5V said:

There are always experienced coaches available every year. 

I'm excited to hear this year's list... I wonder which experienced, proven winning HCs and GMs are currently available that I've never heard of...

[bearpants]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

There are no guarantees, but that doesn't mean that experience doesn't matter. Just look at the records of the experienced HC's vs the inexperienced ones. There is a better chance to win more games, get into the playoffs and win playoff games with experienced folks.

No one is saying that there's no point in taking a shot on a rookie. I'm saying that a rookie comes with an increased probability of failure and a longer time frame to achieve success. There are 40+ players on the team. Some of them should be rookies. Some should be old vets. Some should be in between. There is 1 HC running things. Like QB, I think that should be an experienced person, for many of the same reasons. 

I think yo're missing the point... actually you're probably just ignoring the point... everything you're saying, literally everyone should agree with... the point is, where exactly are all these unemployed experienced, proven winners??

[johnzo]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

Just look at the records of the experienced HC's vs the inexperienced ones.

Inexperienced O'Shea: 12-24

Experienced O'Shea: 23-13

[bearpants]

4 minutes ago, johnzo said:

Inexperienced O'Shea: 12-24

Experienced O'Shea: 23-13

well this is sure to elicit a response from some people... I'll just sit back a watch... can someone please post the Bill Hader eating popcorn gif?

[SPuDS]

8 minutes ago, johnzo said:

Inexperienced O'Shea: 12-24

Experienced O'Shea: 23-13

crazy how an inexperienced rookie coach can develop into an experienced coach capable of producing double digit win seasons..   can't believe someone took a chance on him to let him prove himself.

[do or die]

But he didn't ditch the shorts..........

[M.O.A.B.]

4 minutes ago, do or die said:

But he didn't ditch the shorts..........

You mean he came up short? ?

[voodoochylde]

2 hours ago, bearpants said:

well this is sure to elicit a response from some people... I'll just sit back a watch... can someone please post the Bill Hader eating popcorn gif?

 

Got your back.

[do or die]

2 hours ago, M.O.A.B. said:

You mean he came up short? ?

Got too hung up thinking about the naked bootleg.......

[Atomic]

3 hours ago, bearpants said:

I'm excited to hear this year's list... I wonder which experienced, proven winning HCs and GMs are currently available that I've never heard of...

His answer is basically "There are plenty of guys down south".... which is great if you only look at Trestman as an example.  And ignore all the total failures that have come up to the CFL from the NFL/NCAA. 

[Mark F]

Most of the good CFL head coachs  have been Americans. kindly Cal was an exception.

 There are far more situations there where a person can learn about the game.

 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Mark F

[Jacquie]

Other than Trestman, have there been any successful American CFL HCs who have had no CFL experience (either as player or coach) when hired as HC? 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Jacquie

[johnzo]

I was gonna say June Jones but he's only had half a season of success and he was the OC of the Rough Riders back in the 1986.

Looking at this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Canadian_Football_League_head_coaches_by_wins

It looks like Frank Clair leaped straight into the Argos' big chair from a college job in Buffalo way back in 1950, but all the other top coaches had time as players, assistant coaches, or both, before becoming CFL HCs. 

 

[Guest J5V]

America is a football factory full of thousands of players and hundreds of coaches at the NCAA level and beyond but the arguments against searching for a good coach from there and getting him up to the 'Peg are i)they'd never come to an undesirable place like Winnipeg and/or, ii)there just aren't any anywhere, and/or, iii)they aren't any good. Therefore, our best strategy is to hire inexperienced, unproven rookie head coaches and general managers, preferably at the same time.

Is this really the best you guys can come up with because, frankly, I'm unconvinced and was hoping for better. It's still looking and smelling like chicken **** and not chicken soup.

[M.O.A.B.]

#DeckTheHall

?

Edited November 30, 2017 by M.O.A.B.

[SPuDS]

12 minutes ago, J5V said:

America is a football factory full of thousands of players and hundreds of coaches at the NCAA level and beyond but the arguments against searching for a good coach from there and getting him up to the 'Peg are i)they'd never come to an undesirable place like Winnipeg and/or, ii)there just aren't any anywhere, and/or, iii)they aren't any good. Therefore, our best strategy is to hire inexperienced, unproven rookie head coaches and general managers, preferably at the same time.

Is this really the best you guys can come up with because, frankly, I'm unconvinced and was hoping for better. It's still looking and smelling like chicken **** and not chicken soup.

you ever heard the saying "when everyone one else is saying one thing and you are saying the other... that maybe, just maybe, you could be incorrect?"

sometimes its just best to let it go man.. 

[wbbfan]

31 minutes ago, Jacquie said:

Other than Trestman, have there been any successful American CFL HCs who have had no CFL experience (either as player or coach) when hired as HC? 

Mmm i want to say dave ritchie started out as a HC in bc? Its is certainly very few and far between. Especially now.  Their is a chance for some extremely talented coaches who excel with creativity and teaching to come up and shine well enough to last. That said those guys wouldnt end up in the cfl in general. In particular I could see chip kelly doing well, but I am an out right kool aid drinker when it comes to him.

13 minutes ago, J5V said:

America is a football factory full of thousands of players and hundreds of coaches at the NCAA level and beyond but the arguments against searching for a good coach from there and getting him up to the 'Peg are i)they'd never come to an undesirable place like Winnipeg and/or, ii)there just aren't any anywhere, and/or, iii)they aren't any good. Therefore, our best strategy is to hire inexperienced, unproven rookie head coaches and general managers, preferably at the same time.

Is this really the best you guys can come up with because, frankly, I'm unconvinced and was hoping for better. It's still looking and smelling like chicken **** and not chicken soup.

The grade A guys I agree. The guys with grade A potential can and do come up.

The best strategy imo is to get up and coming Cos (like mos was) surround him with league savvy Cos, maybe guys who dropped down from previous HC jobs (like plop) and fill out the position coaches  With high up side young southern coaches, and ex players looking to move into coaching. 

[johnzo]

Ritchie was the Blue Bomber STC in 1990.

I took a spin thru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Lists_of_Canadian_Football_League_head_coaches_by_team and the only non-Trestmans I can spot who jumped straight into a CFL HC job in the semi-recent past are Bart Andrus, Dan Hawkins, Forrest Gregg, and Daryl Rogers. 

Not a real distinguished list, and very little to suggest that you can hire a guy straight out of the US and instantly turn your program around.  You need a guy with CFL experience. 

(There's also Jack Pardee, Pepper Rodgers, Ron Meyer, and Kaye Stephenson from the US expansion days.  I don't count those guys because they didn't have to play by the same roster rules as the rest of the league. tho Stephenson had an undistinguished year in Edmonton after his Sacramento / San Antonio stint.  I think that was the same year that Dave Archer bit a guy's finger. Man, the CFL was nuts in the nineties)

Edited November 30, 2017 by johnzo