When do we fire Richie Hall?

[SPuDS]

19 minutes ago, J5V said:

I would have been doing a helluva lot more than that. It amazes me how people like you are always making excuses for the people responsible for the crap players around here. If you truly want to win a championship and be the best you're going to need the best players and accept nothing less. If you were a buyer for my company you'd have been fired long ago.

and yet you aint a coach, GM, president or CEO of a football team...

 

colour me shocked.   

 

It amazes me how people like you refuse to acknowledge there is circumstances to everything.. nothing is black and white like you constantly try to make it out to be.  Ratio rules, considerations who who's healthy, who's practiced better in what spots,  whos put in their time, who's shown they know the plays best and on and on and on.. but nope, you seem to think you know all the answers and the coaches and GMs are totally clued out. 

 

your myopic view really clouds your judgement.  Stop looking at everything  thru such a small lens and maybe things will make more sense to you.. or keep assuming an entire football organization is wrong (and a large chunk of its fan base and media) and you are right.  whatever gets you thru the day.

[Blueandgold]

Although neither is ideal, playing Hurl was worse than Thomas playing full-time would’ve been. 

Coates at receiver would’ve been much better than Hurl playing. We got very little production from our fourth import receiver regardless, we wouldn’t have lost much Offensively with Coates playing over middling secondary options  like Denmark and Washington. 

If you want to argue that all the American MLBs we brought into camp sucked and that it wasn’t worth changing the ratio for them that’s fair enough. But, that poses another question. Hurl was a complete turnstile all year, why didn’t we give another Canadian MLB a chance at outperforming him? 

We had Thomas Miles on the roster all year, and he never got the opportunity to play. Miles in 2016 had some good games in Toronto, and looked better than Hurl ever did here. I’m not sure there’s any justification that can be used for not giving Miles an opportunity to play with Hurl playing so poorly all year. 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Blueandgold

[DR. CFL]

The nationality of any player a side the issue still remains is said player good enough to be a starter and be an effective player? You can't have a sub par player playing MLB. The ratio is a critical element of the CFL that all teams must maneuver around.  I am not sure that 3 internationals on the O line is the best way to start.  Other teams seem to manage with 3 nationals on the o line.  And only use 2 when forced to by injury.  Heaven forbid if Harris got hurt and his replacement had to be an international.  This team continues to struggle to find players, have adequate depth at critical positions and have  good depth  with nationals.  Blame who you want....it is a failing of the organization.

[Guest J5V]

The following excerpts are from a 1993 article found at Harvard Business Review entitled To Build a Winning Team: An Interview with Head Coach Bill Walsh. Obviously he says it far better than I ever could but I found several of the things he says rather poignant.

The entire article can be found here

"Again and again in the development and selection of personnel, you have to account for miscalculation. In professional sports, the person who is best at dealing with personnel is the person who recognizes his or her errors and deals with them the quickest and most effectively. That could mean adopting a long-term approach, or it could mean the release of a player."

"You want as many superstars as you can get. The more stars, the better. But the difference between winning and losing is the bottom 25% of your people. Most coaches can deliver the top 75%. But the last 25% only blossoms in the details, in the orchestration of skills, in the way you prepare."

"Any good coach or manager has got to be responsible for phasing his people through the organization. It may be the most emotionally difficult part of the job. When you do it, you often end up as the most unpopular person in the organization. Yet it is part of the role that the leader must play. It has to be done and done continually. You have to be prepared to use your own professional judgment as to when and why it is time for one of your players to call it quits."

"I have spent many sleepless nights trying to figure out how I was going to phase out certain players for whom I had a strong feelings, but that was my job. I wasn’t hired to do anything but win."

[DR. CFL]

Thank you for that J5V.  It often seem that no decision becomes what people deem the safe decision and not necessarily the smartest. It can paralyze a team , an organization or a company.

[Mark H.]

11 hours ago, DR. CFL said:

The nationality of any player a side the issue still remains is said player good enough to be a starter and be an effective player? You can't have a sub par player playing MLB. The ratio is a critical element of the CFL that all teams must maneuver around.  I am not sure that 3 internationals on the O line is the best way to start.  Other teams seem to manage with 3 nationals on the o line.  And only use 2 when forced to by injury.  Heaven forbid if Harris got hurt and his replacement had to be an international.  This team continues to struggle to find players, have adequate depth at critical positions and have  good depth  with nationals.  Blame who you want....it is a failing of the organization.

OL is exactly the place to start, it should be the last position that gets sacrificed. Teams that start 3 national OL do so because they have adequate talent to fill those positions. 

Ask yourself this question: how many games do we win without Matt Nichols in the line up? 

The answer is pretty simple. When the left side of your OL is the best in the league and your QB is a pocket passer, you keep it that way. 

If the Bombers had fielded the kind of OL that Edmonton and BC did this year, it would have been a disaster. 

[DR. CFL]

They fielded a team with an inadequate MLB  and that was a disaster. The cliche that defences win championships seems to have some merit. Calgary has consistently managed to play with 3 nationals on the o line and done it repeatedly while substituting for injuries.....and also done it with an o line coach that got run out of the Peg as well.

[17to85]

TIL 12 wins is a disaster.

[DR. CFL]

Until you can win in the playoffs what difference does it make?

[Fatty Liver]

41 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

OL is exactly the place to start, it should be the last position that gets sacrificed. Teams that start 3 national OL do so because they have adequate talent to fill those positions. 

Ask yourself this question: how many games do we win without Matt Nichols in the line up? 

The answer is pretty simple. When the left side of your OL is the best in the league and your QB is a pocket passer, you keep it that way. 

If the Bombers had fielded the kind of OL that Edmonton and BC did this year, it would have been a disaster. 

The depth of the O-line always makes me nervous, if Bond leaves it's critical that they retain Foketi or find a very competent replacement.  If Neufeld starts next year it's critical that they have 2 backups ready to go that can step up and provide good protection for Nichols, maybe Couture and Spooner are those players but that remains to be seen.  Without a solid O-line all the progress they've made over the past two years will be quickly lost.

[17to85]

1 minute ago, DR. CFL said:

Until you can win in the playoffs what difference does it make?

We have seen more disasters here than we deserve as fans, back to back double win seasons is in no way shape or form a disaster. You wanna go back to a Jim Daley coached team? Or a Tim Burke coached team? Those were disasters. 

[TBURGESS]

42 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

We have seen more disasters here than we deserve as fans, back to back double win seasons is in no way shape or form a disaster. You wanna go back to a Jim Daley coached team? Or a Tim Burke coached team? Those were disasters. 

I don't want to go back to the disasters of the past. I want to move forward to winning playoff games and eventually the Grey Cup and I'm not convinced that MOS is the HC to get us there.

[Noeller]

Just now, TBURGESS said:

I don't want to go back to the disasters of the past. I want to move forward to winning playoff games and eventually the Grey Cup and I'm not convinced that MOS is the HC to get us there.

This is just painful, but thankfully, virtually everyone else in the league is convinced..... 

[TBURGESS]

3 minutes ago, Noeller said:

This is just painful, but thankfully, virtually everyone else in the league is convinced..... 

4 years without a playoff win. How many more years do you think we should have to wait for a playoff win or a Grey Cup berth or even a Grey Cup win? Hint: Toronto did the first 2 in 1 year and have a shot at the third tomorrow.

[pigseye]

53 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

I don't want to go back to the disasters of the past. I want to move forward to winning playoff games and eventually the Grey Cup and I'm not convinced that MOS is the HC to get us there.

I'm not convinced Walters is the GM to get us there more so than MOS.

[TBURGESS]

38 minutes ago, pigseye said:

I'm not convinced Walters is the GM to get us there more so than MOS.

Fair enough. Personally, I think that the number of all stars we have, the FA signings and the drafting shows that  Walters has mostly done a good job. Not perfect and the scouting still needs work, but I think he's giving the team the players that we need to win games.

[Mark H.]

2 hours ago, DR. CFL said:

They fielded a team with an inadequate MLB  and that was a disaster. The cliche that defences win championships seems to have some merit. Calgary has consistently managed to play with 3 nationals on the o line and done it repeatedly while substituting for injuries.....and also done it with an o line coach that got run out of the Peg as well.

The point is: if you can't - you don't.  I don't agree with what they did at the MLB position, but OL is the last position where such a sacrifice should be made.

Calgary has better Canadian OL depth than we do - that's not a secret - but that has nothing to do with what the Bombers are or are not  able to do.  

[Mark F]

 Of course 12 wins is outstanding.

league leading qb, running back, offence, is outstanding.

excellent special teams, is excellent.

worst or second worst defence in the league for two or three years in a row, is  a disaster. It's hard to believe the numbers on the yards they gave up.

 we had even an average defence, probably would have won the semi final, maybe the western final, and so on.

I don't see how that can be denied.

Edited November 25, 2017 by Mark F

[BBRT]

12 minutes ago, Mark F said:

 Of course 12 wins is outstanding.

league leading qb, running back, offence, is outstanding.

excellent special teams, is excellent.

worst or second worst defence in the league for two or three years in a row, is  a disaster. It's hard to believe the numbers on the yards they gave up.

 we had even an average defence, probably would have won the semi final, maybe the western final, and so on.

I don't see how that can be denied.

I can not disagree - I think overall things have come together over the past 3 years under Walters and MOS with the exception of the defense. I agree that with even an average defense we would have at the least made it to the Western Final.  If the Bombers have any hope to move on to the next level, the defense needs to be restructured. Hall needs to be let go and a number of changes need to take place - the first of course is to bring in a run stopping MLB. If Hall is allowed to continue on then I really do not see much hope for the team to advance beyond where they finished in 2017.

[bb1]

I would still want to know if it's Hall or MOS making the call on starting Hurl. Was it not in Halls defense in Sask where Hurl did start but then was demoted to backup over poor play? Why would a defensive coordinator risk his job over a player underperforming in a critical position? Why would MOS come out and defend Hurl stating his job is not like a typical MLB?

[17to85]

5 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

I don't want to go back to the disasters of the past. I want to move forward to winning playoff games and eventually the Grey Cup and I'm not convinced that MOS is the HC to get us there.

I have faith in oshea. Not as much these coordinators but I also know that oshea isn't as loyal as people think. Everyone swore he'd never fire his special teams coordinator a couple years ago yet he did. Guy likes to win, he is just more patient than fans are and let's be honest, a lot of Bomber fans ran out of patience a long time ago.

[wbbfan]

19 hours ago, J5V said:

The following excerpts are from a 1993 article found at Harvard Business Review entitled To Build a Winning Team: An Interview with Head Coach Bill Walsh. Obviously he says it far better than I ever could but I found several of the things he says rather poignant.

The entire article can be found here

"Again and again in the development and selection of personnel, you have to account for miscalculation. In professional sports, the person who is best at dealing with personnel is the person who recognizes his or her errors and deals with them the quickest and most effectively. That could mean adopting a long-term approach, or it could mean the release of a player."

"You want as many superstars as you can get. The more stars, the better. But the difference between winning and losing is the bottom 25% of your people. Most coaches can deliver the top 75%. But the last 25% only blossoms in the details, in the orchestration of skills, in the way you prepare."

"Any good coach or manager has got to be responsible for phasing his people through the organization. It may be the most emotionally difficult part of the job. When you do it, you often end up as the most unpopular person in the organization. Yet it is part of the role that the leader must play. It has to be done and done continually. You have to be prepared to use your own professional judgment as to when and why it is time for one of your players to call it quits."

"I have spent many sleepless nights trying to figure out how I was going to phase out certain players for whom I had a strong feelings, but that was my job. I wasn’t hired to do anything but win."

Great share. In his book "The score takes care of it self" he puts forth a great anecdote about prepping for a possible player strike by bringing in essentially a whole 2nd team of none NFLPA guys to teach the 9ers way of playing football, the playbook, etc.  Preparation,  for every possible out come is the difference between a team that makes the play offs, and a contender year in and year out.  "Finding the winning edge"  is even better. Though the stories in the score takes care of it self really punctuate the simple points extremely well.  (bill walsh is to football nerds what bill james is to baseball)

Great teams, and coaches dont get beaten by the breaks of the game. They take advantage of soo many previous plays that the little wax and wayne of luck doesnt hurt them. You also have to be prepared to get lucky. Atleast some what. It doesnt matter how poor a throw is or the ball is carried if you arent ready to take advantage. 

 

[wbbfan]

19 hours ago, DR. CFL said:

Thank you for that J5V.  It often seem that no decision becomes what people deem the safe decision and not necessarily the smartest. It can paralyze a team , an organization or a company.

No matter what in decision is the worst decision. You can win with countless different strategies, tactics, styles and systems. Weve seen bend but dont break, cover 0, 3-4, 4-3, spread and power systems all win GCs. Its about the right pieces to manage a system, high level teaching to execute it, and preparation to keep it working. The FG kick last year, and the fake this year were calls that raised a lot of ire. But at least they werent passive. 

[blueandgoldguy]

7 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

4 years without a playoff win. How many more years do you think we should have to wait for a playoff win or a Grey Cup berth or even a Grey Cup win? Hint: Toronto did the first 2 in 1 year and have a shot at the third tomorrow.

If the Bombers fail to win a playoff game next year one or both of O'Shea or Walters will be gone.  I don't think there has ever been a coach or GM in CFL history who has survived their first five years with a team without at least one playoff win.

[Jacquie]

11 hours ago, bb1 said:

Why would MOS come out and defend Hurl stating his job is not like a typical MLB?

Because O’Shea does NOT throw players under the bus.