When do we fire Richie Hall?

[17to85]

21 minutes ago, Fraser said:

with Noel Thorpe catching on elsewhere  who does everyone want as a DC at this point?

Ritchie Hall just to watch the epic level freak out on this board. 

[Noeller]

11 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Ritchie Hall just to watch the epic level freak out on this board. 

It's really all I want for Christmas......I love a good ant-hill kicking...

[DR. CFL]

It’s interesting to see people throw around names as potential coaching candidates. I am curious as to how they know anything about their actual qualifications as good coaches?  Former good players is not necessarily a indicator as transitioning into qualified coaches.  The interesting thing about someone like Mark Nelson is when he was with Winnipeg he worked hard as an understudy to Campbell who in reality was the true DC. But  people's perception is their reality. 

[Goalie]

3 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

It’s interesting to see people throw around names as potential coaching candidates. I am curious as to how they know anything about their actual qualifications as good coaches?  Former good players is not necessarily a indicator as transitioning into qualified coaches.  The interesting thing about someone like Mark Nelson is when he was with Winnipeg he worked hard as an understudy to Campbell who in reality was the true DC. But  people's perception is their reality. 

Nelson was the true DC here. Campbell was special teams coach. You are like fake news with your bs and reading in to things that just arent factual.  I mean really here... Talk about reaching and fake news. DR CFL... I believe i shall now call you DR Trump cuz you have reached Trump levels of BS. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Goalie

[Noeller]

"I'VE HEARD OF THAT GUY SO HE MUST BE GOOD!" has long been a messageboard trope.....

[blue_gold_84]

18 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

It’s interesting to see people throw around names as potential coaching candidates. I am curious as to how they know anything about their actual qualifications as good coaches?  Former good players is not necessarily a indicator as transitioning into qualified coaches.  The interesting thing about someone like Mark Nelson is when he was with Winnipeg he worked hard as an understudy to Campbell who in reality was the true DC. But  people's perception is their reality. 

Get outta here with that bullshit. Rick Campbell was the DB coach and ST coordinator in 2009.

[SPuDS]

27 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Get outta here with that bullshit. Rick Campbell was the DB coach and ST coordinator in 2009.

Gotta give him some credit.. at least hes consistent.. consistently wrong but still.. consistent, lol.

[DR. CFL]

Well sports fans...I was there spent countless hours in the office at that time working there and witnessed hours and hours of Campbell coaching Nelson up of defensive schemes and starategy.  So seeing it first hand ....

[pigseye]

17 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

Well sports fans...I was there spent countless hours in the office at that time working there and witnessed hours and hours of Campbell coaching Nelson up of defensive schemes and starategy.  So seeing it first hand ....

Quite true, Nelson had zero experience as a professional DC before the Bombers in 2009.

[Floyd]

17 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

Well sports fans...I was there spent countless hours in the office at that time working there and witnessed hours and hours of Campbell coaching Nelson up of defensive schemes and starategy.  So seeing it first hand ....

At least this confirms who Dr. CFL is...

[pigseye]

18 hours ago, 17to85 said:

You saying Leggett, Randle and Heath aren't legit players? Hell even Walker and Alexander are promising younger guys too and Loffler is Loffler. 

The talent in the secondary isn't horrible and the DL is solid all around too.

Some of you are just deniers (my contribution to the Trump bashing).

These players weren't selected for the ability to cover, they are here because they turn the ball over, better than anyone else in the league. Are we compensating for deficiencies elsewhere in the lineup, absolutely, but that doesn't mean that they are the right players for the type of defence you think they could be under a new coordinator with different looks. TJ Heath is horrible in coverage, he is a gambler always trying for the interception and that is why he is here.

[Noeller]

2 minutes ago, pigseye said:

Some of you are just deniers (my contribution to the Trump bashing).

These players weren't selected for the ability to cover, they are here because they turn the ball over, better than anyone else in the league. Are we compensating for deficiencies elsewhere in the lineup, absolutely, but that doesn't mean that they are the right players for the type of defence you think they could be under a new coordinator with different looks. TJ Heath is horrible in coverage, he is a gambler always trying for the interception and that is why he is here.

Horse ****. It was well documented that Heath and Randle were hardly ever targeted last season, because teams didn't want to test them. 

[pigseye]

1 minute ago, Noeller said:

Horse ****. It was well documented that Heath and Randle were hardly ever targeted last season, because teams didn't want to test them. 

Is it, most turnovers in the league by far and worst against the pass, you refuse to see what is staring you straight in the face.

[MOBomberFan]

Out of any of our players in our secondary I'd say Loffler is likely the 'worst' in coverage, but he brings a certain presence to the field that makes up for a lot of that (passport, too). Carmichael was victimized early in the season which did nothing to help our passing yards against stats. Tried and tested veterans like Randle and Heath were not the culprits; more likely it's the rookies in the secondary, a passive coordinator, and a middling pass rush that are to blame.

[Guest J5V]

30 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Out of any of our players in our secondary I'd say Loffler is likely the 'worst' in coverage, but he brings a certain presence to the field that makes up for a lot of that (passport, too). Carmichael was victimized early in the season which did nothing to help our passing yards against stats. Tried and tested veterans like Randle and Heath were not the culprits; more likely it's the rookies in the secondary, a passive coordinator, and a middling pass rush that are to blame.

LOL!

[MOBomberFan]

2 minutes ago, J5V said:

LOL!

...what's so funny? Roc Carmichael. Brandon Alexander. Brian Walker. All CFL rookies. All played in the secondary. All took turns giving up big plays.

[Guest J5V]

2 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

...what's so funny? Roc Carmichael. Brandon Alexander. Brian Walker. All CFL rookies. All played in the secondary. All took turns giving up big plays.

Oh, I don't disagree, but some folks around here are a little touchy about anything that might be considered criticism of a rookie. Now whenever I see someone mention rookie(s), it brings a little smile to my face.  

[MOBomberFan]

Isn't one of our former HC's famously quoted as saying every position you start a rookie at will cost you a win? There is probably a lot of truth to this.

[Guest J5V]

3 minutes ago, MOBomberFan said:

Isn't one of our former HC's famously quoted as saying every position you start a rookie at will cost you a win? There is probably a lot of truth to this.

Well, yes but, the argument is, rookies are all you can get in Winnipeg because, well, it's Winnipeg and nobody else will come here. Besides, there is no good personnel anywhere else, especially South of the border and if you think there is, be prepared to name names. 

[wbbfan]

1 hour ago, MOBomberFan said:

Out of any of our players in our secondary I'd say Loffler is likely the 'worst' in coverage, but he brings a certain presence to the field that makes up for a lot of that (passport, too). Carmichael was victimized early in the season which did nothing to help our passing yards against stats. Tried and tested veterans like Randle and Heath were not the culprits; more likely it's the rookies in the secondary, a passive coordinator, and a middling pass rush that are to blame.

Loffler doesnt cover in the traditional way a S in the cfl would. As a part of our maligned MLBer use he plays a very shallow spot with out the deep cover assignment.  His athleticism gets him in on the back end of long ball plays and some people think hes failed to come over and help. 

Is he our worst cover guy? Could still be. But not fair to judge him based on his deployment thus far. Hard to imagine him not being better playing The shallow cloud on a robber play. Hes not mo thats for sure. Not a guy Id like to see 1on1 with speedy wrs. But would he be a problem playing mid field in a 3 deep zone, or a quarter in 4 deep? nah. not at all. 

Heath and randle actually had rough ends to the year as well.  They both got eaten up more then normal. Have to also keep in mind that rookie DBs will often make simple mistakes and any one in deep cover will have to cheat to their side. Rookie db shades the wrong way, bites on a fake/pump/pa/break, the deep cover sees it and has to adjust early creating openings else where. Ideally you deep cover over lanes created by shading of the man / matchzone etc, and stay on top of that lane till the ball is thrown. Having to give up position early gives the QB a considerable advantage. 

 TLDR, our defense has spent a LOT of time covering up for personnel issues via scheme. Fix that and every one else will do better. 

[pigseye]

4 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

Out of any of our players in our secondary I'd say Loffler is likely the 'worst' in coverage, but he brings a certain presence to the field that makes up for a lot of that (passport, too). Carmichael was victimized early in the season which did nothing to help our passing yards against stats. Tried and tested veterans like Randle and Heath were not the culprits; more likely it's the rookies in the secondary, a passive coordinator, and a middling pass rush that are to blame.

If your safety is in man coverage then your DC is likely the village idiot. 

We played way too much cover zero (a Ritchie Hall trademark btw) where the DB's were left with no safety help because Loeffler was either blitzing or coming up to stop the run. Now if the DB's could play man, which they can't, it wouldn't be a problem, but ours were too busy trying for the pick or tunrover, as they were instructed to do.

Just a perfect storm of shitty coaching and players being asked to do what they aren't capable of doing. 

[Booch]

14 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Loffler doesnt cover in the traditional way a S in the cfl would. As a part of our maligned MLBer use he plays a very shallow spot with out the deep cover assignment.  His athleticism gets him in on the back end of long ball plays and some people think hes failed to come over and help. 

Is he our worst cover guy? Could still be. But not fair to judge him based on his deployment thus far. Hard to imagine him not being better playing The shallow cloud on a robber play. Hes not mo thats for sure. Not a guy Id like to see 1on1 with speedy wrs. But would he be a problem playing mid field in a 3 deep zone, or a quarter in 4 deep? nah. not at all. 

Heath and randle actually had rough ends to the year as well.  They both got eaten up more then normal. Have to also keep in mind that rookie DBs will often make simple mistakes and any one in deep cover will have to cheat to their side. Rookie db shades the wrong way, bites on a fake/pump/pa/break, the deep cover sees it and has to adjust early creating openings else where. Ideally you deep cover over lanes created by shading of the man / matchzone etc, and stay on top of that lane till the ball is thrown. Having to give up position early gives the QB a considerable advantage. 

 TLDR, our defense has spent a LOT of time covering up for personnel issues via scheme. Fix that and every one else will do better. 

That's kind of what I was saying all along too...we sacrificed traditional scheme and philosophy to compensate for inadequate personnel elsewhere...mainly linebacker and  the other halfback spot.

Our safety was used to help out in the box more so than in the secondary and was rarely there to give over top help or to help in coverage...a lot of times he recognized it and tried to get there, but 9 times out of 10 could't and no fault of his but would make it seem like a coverage bust, or him missing an assignment..which it wasn't

Same with the DB's at times...the veterans would at times cheat or overcompensate to "help" but in football it takes 12 guys doing a specific thing to be successful and when one breaks down to help another spot..well then you get exploited. I can bet teams schemed specifically against us to bait certain guys in knowing the veteran will recognize and over compensate and then attacked his vacated spot..some games I was able to call it before it even happened as the play developed. The notion that the DB's couldn't play man is garbage as well. 

Also our apparent use of the middle linebacker position was basically a wasted guy on the field with no purpose and teams schemed it. Was a total scheme issue the past year due to personnel and it compounded all over the defense.  What ails this defense would be fixed with the traditional use of the MLB as has been seen since the constant use of the 5 reliever set offence, with a player who can play sideline to sideline...have the loose hips to turn and run with a receiver and cover as well as be stout enough to step up and take on the run. Those guys are a dime a dozen down south and we have to lose the mentality that we want to run that position as a Canadian spot...because those guys are more like $10 a dozen  and don't come around that often

[SPuDS]

20 hours ago, pigseye said:

Is it, most turnovers in the league by far and worst against the pass, you refuse to see what is staring you straight in the face.

no, you don't know what it is you are talking about actually.   Heath, Randle and Leggett are some of the best cover DBs in the league..  open your eyes and stop staring at some stupid stat sheet.  ever heard "stats are for losers?"

 

[SPuDS]

20 hours ago, MOBomberFan said:

Isn't one of our former HC's famously quoted as saying every position you start a rookie at will cost you a win? There is probably a lot of truth to this.

Dave Richieism yup.. and he wasn't wrong.  a rookie will cost you a win for every one you start.  Its rang true every season that I can recall.

[Atomic]

21 hours ago, Floyd said:

At least this confirms who Dr. CFL is...

Actually Dr. CFL is Ross Hodgkinson