When do we fire Richie Hall?

[Fatty Liver]

14 minutes ago, Floyd said:

The Hall concerns are EXACTLY the same this off-season as last off-season... and the answer is almost exactly the same - players need to step up, Osh will play greater role, we're bringing in new blood...  so that's kind of a huge concern.

Ottawa ending up with Noel Thorpe AND Nelson was the biggest coup this off-season...  really think either of those guys would make the bombers a GC team

 

Perhaps the difference this year will be if a player goes rogue and fails they'll have to explain it to O'Shea, not Hall.

[SPuDS]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:50 PM, tracker said:

It is simplistic to dismiss criticism of Hall as a personal attack on him and just hatred. I'm pretty sure that any of us here would love to have a coffee or beer with him but that does not explain or excuse his track record- not just here but elsewhere. Our defence was bad last season despite some darned good talent and I suggest to you that the Argos had lesser talent but still won the Cup.  Hall has been given time and has been found wanting, and that has nothing to do with his personality or if he is kind to small children and pets.

Oh, so its ok to heap blame on him but completely ignore all the positives that are on the defense?  Kind of a myopic way to view things, no?   There is no denying we caused opposition to turn the ball over better then anyone else in the last 2 years..  we also increased our sack and pressure totals..  Its not like Hall was a complete failure..   Maybe the reason he is still here and it doesn't make sense to us is because at the end of the day, we are only fans and have no clue what transpires behind closed doors or the causes of the failures on our defense.

[Noeller]

Actually, to be specific, I think the concerns last year were about DL giving up too many yards along the ground. Not so much about secondary because they'd taken away a record number of balls in 2016. They seem to have been BETTER (still avg 97/game in 17, I believe...) this past year and now it's more an issue about the secondary and busted plays resulting in huge passing yards. 

[Floyd]

10 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Actually, to be specific, I think the concerns last year were about DL giving up too many yards along the ground. Not so much about secondary because they'd taken away a record number of balls in 2016. They seem to have been BETTER (still avg 97/game in 17, I believe...) this past year and now it's more an issue about the secondary and busted plays resulting in huge passing yards. 

Winnipeg gave up the second most rushing first downs in the league...  and almost 100 yards per game...  sad if this is considered 'better'

 

 

[Noeller]

53 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Winnipeg gave up the second most rushing first downs in the league...  and almost 100 yards per game...  sad if this is considered 'better'

 

 

Be that as it may...............I don't think we're as concerned about the DL as we are about the Secondary and LBs at this point. Tho, that may be because of the low bar set.....

[DR. CFL]

When other MLBs in the league are making 8-10 tackles per game and stuffing run plays at the LOS......there is a measuring stick as to what Wpg needs. 

[Tracker]

8 hours ago, SPuDS said:

Oh, so its ok to heap blame on him but completely ignore all the positives that are on the defense?  Kind of a myopic way to view things, no?   There is no denying we caused opposition to turn the ball over better then anyone else in the last 2 years..  we also increased our sack and pressure totals..  Its not like Hall was a complete failure..   Maybe the reason he is still here and it doesn't make sense to us is because at the end of the day, we are only fans and have no clue what transpires behind closed doors or the causes of the failures on our defense.

No coach is without some redeeming skills (ok, maybe Burke as head coach and a few others) but the bottom lines is the bottom line, the defence that he is responsible to oversee wasn't good enough to win a playoff game.  You are certainly correct in that few, if any of us, know what goes on behind the curtains, so all we have is the record of the defence. Q.E.D.

[SpeedFlex27]

11 hours ago, SPuDS said:

dont you have have huge concerns every off-season though? lol.

 

and I don't get this, just because other teams do things one way... we are clearly doing things wrong and heading for a nose dive into the depths of hell?

 

you do realize we just came off of back to back double digit wins and are clearly trending upwards?

I know that. Thank you btw.

[SpeedFlex27]

11 hours ago, SPuDS said:

Oh, so its ok to heap blame on him but completely ignore all the positives that are on the defense?  Kind of a myopic way to view things, no?   There is no denying we caused opposition to turn the ball over better then anyone else in the last 2 years..  we also increased our sack and pressure totals..  Its not like Hall was a complete failure..   Maybe the reason he is still here and it doesn't make sense to us is because at the end of the day, we are only fans and have no clue what transpires behind closed doors or the causes of the failures on our defense.

Heap blame? He is the DC. The man in charge. He'd get praise if his defense played great & criticism when they didn't so it goes both ways. Doug Brown being an experienced DL knows what goes on when it comes to team dynamics. I guess the question I have is if there was freelancing &  rogue play by certain players to bring glory onto themselves then why wasn't it dealt with swiftly by Hall & O'Shea? Some benchings  should have happened. If it continued then player releases. I think Brown was asking the same thing & pointing out the lack of accountability by the players. Why didn't the coaches do something? 

[Blueandgold]

21 hours ago, Floyd said:

Winnipeg gave up the second most rushing first downs in the league...  and almost 100 yards per game...  sad if this is considered 'better'

 

 

We haven't had a legit MLB since Henoc left to the NFL.

That plays a BIG part in our inability to stop the run.

[SPuDS]

27 minutes ago, Blueandgold said:

We haven't had a legit MLB since Henoc left to the NFL.

That plays a BIG part in our inability to stop the run.

I agree.  that and how we utilize our MLB.  I don't know if even a Lobendahn or Simpson in our defense would have looked any better with how they used Hurl... Now, with that said, was Hurl's position dictated by scheme or by Hurl's shortcomings? 

 

 

[Booch]

I think both....and was schemed as such to try and cover up his shortcomings in the flats in coverage and and tracking/flowing to the ball...i guess they figured if he could plug a hole and stop the run at the line we could use others elsewhere to manage other areas...but he generally just got lost in the wash along the line and was inneffective.

I also think thats why you always seemed to see guys free in the flats, and over the middle for easy completions because we had nobody there, and Loffler was used to clean it up, but also had to play back a bit to respect the deep routes and offer over the top help...such a flawed scheme

[Floyd]

11 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

I agree.  that and how we utilize our MLB.  I don't know if even a Lobendahn or Simpson in our defense would have looked any better with how they used Hurl... Now, with that said, was Hurl's position dictated by scheme or by Hurl's shortcomings? 

Of course - Hall didn't use Mo Lloyd as a fifth DL...  

[Bigblue204]

6 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

I agree.  that and how we utilize our MLB.  I don't know if even a Lobendahn or Simpson in our defense would have looked any better with how they used Hurl... Now, with that said, was Hurl's position dictated by scheme or by Hurl's shortcomings? 

 

 

I disagree. They would have looked much better. Hurl missed a lot of tackles, not due to scheme or being in the wrong position. He was right there, and the runners 8 out of 10 times would make him miss.

[blue_gold_84]

2 hours ago, SPuDS said:

I agree.  that and how we utilize our MLB.  I don't know if even a Lobendahn or Simpson in our defense would have looked any better with how they used Hurl... Now, with that said, was Hurl's position dictated by scheme or by Hurl's shortcomings? 

Neither Lobendahn nor Simpson would require being insulated in some unorthodox scheme. They both know how to be effective at MLB, which certainly can't be sad for Hurl.

And to answer your question, it's the latter. Unequivocally. Hurl is not a starting calibre MLB and that was made apparent in 2015.

[Floyd]

2 hours ago, Bigblue204 said:

I disagree. They would have looked much better. Hurl missed a lot of tackles, not due to scheme or being in the wrong position. He was right there, and the runners 8 out of 10 times would make him miss.

Its like watching Labbe all over again...  he's almost in the right place and only one step behind the play.  But what a great character guy.

[SPuDS]

5 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Neither Lobendahn nor Simpson would require being insulated in some unorthodox scheme. They both know how to be effective at MLB, which certainly can't be sad for Hurl.

And to answer your question, it's the latter. Unequivocally. Hurl is not a starting calibre MLB and that was made apparent in 2015.

Yea I'm pretty sure thats accurate.  I just can't fathom how we built a defense specifically to use a lesser quality MLB like we did.  so ass-backwards.

2 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Its like watching Labbe all over again...  he's almost in the right place and only one step behind the play.  But what a great character guy.

wow,  great call.  Mckinleyesque as well.    had forgot about that time in our history.. guess I gotta shove q-tips deeper into the ear to forget them again now lol.

[Tracker]

On ‎2018‎-‎01‎-‎08 at 9:53 AM, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

Perhaps the difference this year will be if a player goes rogue and fails they'll have to explain it to O'Shea, not Hall.

Quite a condemnation of Hall.

[Tracker]

2 hours ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Neither Lobendahn nor Simpson would require being insulated in some unorthodox scheme. They both know how to be effective at MLB, which certainly can't be sad for Hurl.

And to answer your question, it's the latter. Unequivocally. Hurl is not a starting calibre MLB and that was made apparent in 2015.

Yup. His jersey ought to read "ROADKILL"

 

 

Edited January 9, 2018 by tracker

[blue_gold_84]

14 minutes ago, tracker said:

Yup. His jersey ought to read "ROADKILL"

But that would be an insult to roadkill.

[SPuDS]

30 minutes ago, tracker said:

Yup. His jersey ought to read "ROADKILL"

 

 

well, he didn't get trucked or ran over so often... so maybe WashOut instead? 

 

[Fatty Liver]

46 minutes ago, tracker said:

Quite a condemnation of Hall.

It's clear Richie is 10 ply, O'Shea is more like 4 ply.

Edited January 9, 2018 by Throw Long Bannatyne

[Floyd]

37 minutes ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

It's clear Richie is 10 ply, O'Shea is more like 4 ply.

Based on what - have you ever seen Osh lose it more than a fatherly talking to and a pat on the butt?

[Atomic]

11 minutes ago, Floyd said:

Based on what - have you ever seen Osh lose it more than a fatherly talking to and a pat on the butt?

A few times but not many.   He doesn't take kindly to special teams penalties. 

And practice is a whole different story.  Seen him lose it a couple times there.

Of course it doesn't really matter.  Marc Trestman doesn't get pissed off at his players either and he's been somewhat successful.

[Noeller]

we've been over this so many times.....just because Osh doesn't lose it publicly, doesn't mean he doesn't lose it behind closed doors. That's what makes him a professional and why players love him.