The Star Wars Thread

[The Unknown Poster]

 

Quote

Speaking for BAFTA, director Rian Johnson once again spoke to his reasoning behind the lack of development in Snoke.

“In this particular story, it’s much more like the original trilogy, where with Snoke if you think about the actual scenes, if suddenly I had paused one of the scenes to give a 30 second monologue about who he was, it would have kind of stopped the scene in its tracks, I realized. Even though it could have been interesting, something that fans were interested in, as storytellers, we have to kind of serve what the scenes need to be. It was a tough thing, even though I knew some fans were interested in it I also knew it wasn’t something that dramatically had a place in this movie. Hopefully it can be addressed elsewhere or even J.J. may address it in the next movie. But it’s not something that’s particularly interesting to Rey, so we kind of had to follow through.”

I disagree.  I dont the issue is that we never got the back story per se.  Its that the whole state of the Star Wars universe is predicated on the existence and incredible power of Snoke.  The existence of the First Order.  The destruction of the Republic.  Kylo's turn to the dark side.  Luke's exile.  Han's split with leia.  Its all because of Snoke.  And then they get rid of when because he doesnt serve the narrower narrative of Kylo vs Rey anymore.

Its an anvil of a plot hole.  And the story NEEDED explanation and justification.  Its different from the original trilogy where we learn nothing about Palps because in that story we pick it up mid-story.  As far as viewers knew, Palps was always there.  The real crux of the conflict was Luke's father being "betrayed and murdered by Vader" and joining the dark side to make it so powerful.  Thats what sent Luke on his journey.  Palps only mattered in Return of the Jedi because Vader needed something to do to redeem himself.

In the Sequel Trilogy, it all springs from Snoke. 

Sidelining him was lazy and irresponsible and one of the reasons the narrative doesnt work.

[17to85]

6 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Sidelining him was lazy and irresponsible and one of the reasons the narrative doesnt work.

Yup, sounds like a director too high on himself to understand what the story was actually about. When you are making a sequel you have to play by the rules laid out in the first movie. You can't just decide that "no I don't like that story" 

[JCon]

They didn't explain the Emperor in IV, V, VI but they also didn't cut off his story until it had a chance to finish. I feel like Snoke was killed off too early.

[The Unknown Poster]

And because Return of the Jedi ended on such a high and we picked up the story 30 years later and all hells broken loose, we need an explanation.  Especially because Luke is critical of the Jedi for allowing Palps to rise to power and then seemingly does the exact same thing.  Snoke's power is too critical to ignore.

I have a feeling JJ will revisit this.  Its simply to clunky to the narrative to ignore.

[The Unknown Poster]

Another quote from Rian showing he didnt get it

Quote

Director Rian Johnson has talked about this scene since the movie was released, and he explained that for him, it seemed far more interesting for Kylo Ren to kill his master and be the main threat going into the final movie of the trilogy.

Narratively it might be tidier for Kylo to have been the main bad guy to showdown with Rey.  But you cant pretend TFA didnt exist.  If you try to create a world where Snoke simply doesnt exist, you have to explain why the First Order exists and why Kylo turned.  That is the function Palps played in the OT and why he wasnt needed until Jedi.

The ST followed the same basic path as both previous trilogies, that of the student who turns on his master and needs to be redeemed by the newer model of Jedi.  But, in the effort to not "rehash", they decided to change the story beat AFTER it had already begun.  Cant do that.  At least, not the way they did.

Because JJ used Snoke as the reason he could create a more complex Kylo.  Kylo is shown to be weak in many ways.  Strong with the force but was beaten by an untrained Rey.  He's angry, bitter, petulant.  Not the makings of a strong main villain.  JJ knew this which is why he had Snoke. Because thats who we feared.

Rian wanting Kylo to kill his master is a nice idea except he doesnt defeat him through strength, he does it through sneaky means.  It doesnt make Kylo stronger.  So now we have a weak main villain.

Its akin to Anakin killing Palps in Attack of the Clones.  It just wouldnt work.

Lots of good stuff in TLJ makes me think RIan will craft a great trilogy of his own.  But he didnt respect the fact he was working on some one else's material.

[17to85]

29 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Another quote from Rian showing he didnt get it

Narratively it might be tidier for Kylo to have been the main bad guy to showdown with Rey.  But you cant pretend TFA didnt exist.  If you try to create a world where Snoke simply doesnt exist, you have to explain why the First Order exists and why Kylo turned.  That is the function Palps played in the OT and why he wasnt needed until Jedi.

The ST followed the same basic path as both previous trilogies, that of the student who turns on his master and needs to be redeemed by the newer model of Jedi.  But, in the effort to not "rehash", they decided to change the story beat AFTER it had already begun.  Cant do that.  At least, not the way they did.

Because JJ used Snoke as the reason he could create a more complex Kylo.  Kylo is shown to be weak in many ways.  Strong with the force but was beaten by an untrained Rey.  He's angry, bitter, petulant.  Not the makings of a strong main villain.  JJ knew this which is why he had Snoke. Because thats who we feared.

Rian wanting Kylo to kill his master is a nice idea except he doesnt defeat him through strength, he does it through sneaky means.  It doesnt make Kylo stronger.  So now we have a weak main villain.

Its akin to Anakin killing Palps in Attack of the Clones.  It just wouldnt work.

Lots of good stuff in TLJ makes me think RIan will craft a great trilogy of his own.  But he didnt respect the fact he was working on some one else's material.

Kylo Ren killing his master is absolutely a great plot idea, the problem is you can't rush it like they did, you can't throw away the back story like he did because without the backstory then it just becomes meaningless. 

Rian Johnson failed on a basic story telling level with this movie period. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Yup.  They needed to show Kylo rising to the power level where he could kill Snoke if they wanted to go that route. 

Who knows how the creative process worked.  I find it very hard to believe that Rian could do whatever he wanted with no input from JJ.  And if they really are making three films with little idea of where they were going from the beginning, they're nuts.  JJ made that mistake with Lost.

As it is, I thought JJ did a great job with TFA.  Rian screwed it up.

[17to85]

Honestly with a bit more thought he could have made the movie he wanted to and it could have been great. You want to focus on Luke and Rey and the Kylo overcoming Snoke then you absolutely do it, but let's not waste so much time on two other story lines that are ultimately big failures and a waste of time. Roll the rest of the rebels off into just one side mission, come up with some objective they're working towards rather than just trying to run away. Gives them something to do without wasting a bunch of run time on useless stories. Then you have time to explore more about the Kylo/Snoke relationship and flesh out the character that is supposed to be this big bad and that way when Kylo Ren turns on him and kills him you have made Kylo much more threatening than simply having everyone repeat "kylo ren, such a bad ass". Show, don't tell. Rey and Luke can still work in much the same way, though I wouldn't have wasted as much screen time on Luke being reluctant to help, but that's purely because it contradicts what we learned in the first movie about his goals. 

[Brandon]

As a casual Star Wars fan coming away from watching both new movies only once....    Kylo Ren appears to be the weakest of any Jedi.    I think they could of extended the scenes with Rei showing just how powerful she is and how much advanced she was considering how little (if any) training she had from Luke.   

I come away from watching the movies thinking that Kylo isn't the guy that everyone fears and where the next movie will be how the good guys can overcome such an overwhelming powerful demi-god like figure.    

My favorite scene in Rogue One was at the end where Darth Vader is casually walking through destroying everyone in his path with zero effort.  I dont' get that from Kylo.     

My assumption is that in the next movie they will do a swerve where Rei goes dark and Kylo saves the day or something along those lines?   

[17to85]

The only time they've really nailed making Kylo Ren seem like a bad ass is at the very start of The Force Awakens when he stops a blaster shot, more stuff like that would have helped establish him as a real threat. 

[Brandon]

12 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The only time they've really nailed making Kylo Ren seem like a bad ass is at the very start of The Force Awakens when he stops a blaster shot, more stuff like that would have helped establish him as a real threat. 

 

I think for myself what would of made a larger impact would be had Kylo and Snoke had a straight up test of might battle  (a la dragon ball z) where at the last second Snoke fears the power of Kylo and gets blown up would of been much more impactful. 

Kylo at this point kind of seems whiny and I look at him similar to how I looked at the emo spiderman from Spiderman 3...  just doesn't seem right. 

[JCon]

12 hours ago, 17to85 said:

The only time they've really nailed making Kylo Ren seem like a bad ass is at the very start of The Force Awakens when he stops a blaster shot, more stuff like that would have helped establish him as a real threat. 

I also liked when he overcame his emotions and killed Han.

[The Unknown Poster]

Yeah, I originally was writing how weak Kylo was, but JJ did show his very strong Force power with the blaster shot stoppage.

I agree they could have cut back the casino sub plot and spent more time on Luke/Rey and Kylo/Snoke.  As it is TFA ended with Rey going to see Luke and Snoke demanding Hux bring Kylo to him to complete his training.  TLJ opens moments later and yet its like everyone forgot that.  The way TFA ended, you couldnt do a time jump...but really, you could.  They could have used a montage to show Rey training with Luke.

For Kylo they really only need show something negative that empowers the dark side within him to make him stronger.  I think the organic narrative set up in TFA was Luke vs Snoke.  And it seems clear they wanted these films to be about the new kids, which is to the detriment of the story really.

I dont think Rey will turn.  They had that option in TLJ.  She's the female hero that little girls will look up to.  No way they turn her.

[Brandon]

12 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I dont think Rey will turn.  They had that option in TLJ.  She's the female hero that little girls will look up to.  No way they turn her.

Unless they try to outsmart everyone by doing the swerve?   They have alluded to it a bit?

[JCon]

11 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

  I think the organic narrative set up in TFA was Luke vs Snoke. 

I disagree. I never felt the tie between them, although I know they "battled" for Ren.

I've always felt the battle or connection was Rey to Ren, Rey to Luke, Ren to Snoke.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Unless they try to outsmart everyone by doing the swerve?   They have alluded to it a bit?

I thought the swerve would be Kylo turning back and he and Rey needing to work together to defeat Snoke.  And that Luke would be opposed to the idea and in Rey disobeying him and helping redeem Kylo, it redeems Luke with the "new" idea for the Jedi being that balance is actually both the light and dark.  Kylo being the dark pulled to the light and Rey being the light pulled to the dark.  And the end result being a realization that they need their inner darkness to be truly powerful.

That also works better if Kylo and Rey were related but it didnt have to be.  So you could have Luke go after Snoke and lose...and Kylo seeing Luke struck down and Rey's pleading, he finally accepts the lightness in him.

I think from a Disney marketing perspective, its not worth turning Rey.  And I agree with that.  The trend right now is way from the damsel in distress female hero to the Wonder Woman/Jedi Rey hero.  And thats far more interesting.  And lucrative.

Edited January 10, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, JCon said:

I disagree. I never felt the tie between them, although I know they "battled" for Ren.

I've always felt the battle or connection was Rey to Ren, Rey to Luke, Ren to Snoke.

I agree about your last line.  But since Snoke was there, he had to have a role with someone.  And I never really felt it was Kylo vs Snoke.  Maybe in the shadow of Vader taking out Palps we might think that. 

Leia and Han both discussed how Snoke turned Ben.  In TLJ, Luke explains how Snoke had turned him.  We see how Snoke has taken over the galaxy.  We see how powerful Snoke is.  Maybe its not a great narrative connection but on paper the powerful Jedi was Luke and the powerful Dark Side user was Snoke.  Luke should have wanted 'revenge' (or to defeat Snoke).  That was one of the weaknesses, that Luke just ran away and abandoned everyone to Snoke and Kylo.

I see why Rian wanted Luke out of the way...because otherwise he HAD to be in the fight.  But I think there were better ways to do it.  My preferred was Kylo and Rey together taking down Snoke.  Snoke was too important to be sidelined the way he was. 

Im not sure if I could bring myself to have Luke's death be at Snoke's hands when Kylo really needed the kill, if the intention was to make him the big bad guy.  Kylo beating Luke in an epic duel would cement him as powerful and leave us thinking Snoke had truly manipulated circumstances so that he could never be defeated...very hopeless.  And then ofcourse either Rey beats them both or Kylo turns back.

[JCon]

I didn't mean to suggest that Ren would battle Snoke, just succeed him, hence the connection.

[The Unknown Poster]

The reason the idea of Kylo and Rey teaming up also works is if you look at the whole saga as one story...which Rian really hurt with TLJ.  But the whole idea of the PT is the stupid Jedi and their "Chosen One" nonsense bringing Balance to the Force.

People tried to say Vader killing Palps leaving only Luke is "Balance".  But if a not-quite totally dark Kylo and a not-quite totally light Rey join up to defeat the most power evil entity...they bring real balance.  That the evil would not be defeated without the combined forces of both the dark and light.  So the saga begun in the PT didnt end in Return of the Jedi and now we have a new one...it continued.

Its why Snoke should probably have been Darth Plagieus as well, to connect him to Palps as a greater evil who cant be killed.

Then we can look at the saga as the story of this universal evil and the prophecy of the chosen one being about Rey and Kylo.  Anakin is still critical, as is Luke because it's Anakin, born out of the dark side who eventually has Luke & Leia.  Luke redeems Anakin and brings Han and Leia together.  Han and Leia have Kylo, the dark and Rey the light.  Together they are the prophecy of the Chosen One...the Chosen Ones, who bring balance and destroy the evil that first began in the PT.

Snoke begets Palps who betrays him and begets Anakin who begets Luke who redeems him to kill Palps.  Snoke, who is too powerful to be killed returns.  Anakin begets Leia who begets Kylo who is turned by Snoke and begets Rey who is trained by Luke and together they kill Snoke.  Proving that evil ends up destroying itself in the end.

Saga is wrapped up nicely.

And people will say oh no thats a rehash.  Its not a rehash when its a narrative that flows through the saga with the same story beats of fate and destiny and prophecy.   As it is, the ST is so disjointed from the previous six.

Edited January 10, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[Logan007]

Saw that the other day.  I laughed so hard.

I liked that story better then TLJ.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Logan007 said:

Saw that the other day.  I laughed so hard.

I liked that story better then TLJ.

Yup.  Giving us a "predictable" film that organically follows the narrative and delivers the highs that fans want.  Or what we got which was the too-smart artsy film maker who wants to deliver a film no one expects. 

[17to85]

Somewhere along the way hollywood types started to think that subverting expectations alone made movies great. 

Sorry but that's not the case. it still have to be executed well. 

[The Unknown Poster]

17 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Somewhere along the way hollywood types started to think that subverting expectations alone made movies great. 

Sorry but that's not the case. it still have to be executed well. 

Its so crazy because it really came from their desire to do "something different" with Luke.  You didnt need to do anything different.  Had he walked out for real to confront the First Order and engaged in an epic force/saber fight, fans would have been cheering.   You know the director was making fun of fans when he had Luke actually say "what did you expect me to do, fight the whole first order with a light sword?"  That was a sarcastic condescending line from the director to the fans.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

It's gone torrent.