Local MMA

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Ah kk I thought it was nbc but i wasnt sure. I did hear that vince very much wanted to continue it but the broadcasters and partner pulled out. Some thing like 180m dollars lost in one season or some thing crazy?

If they wanted to make a good run of it, I think they'd make a show to go with it. Kinda like the ultimate fighter, meets last chance U. 

It was $35-$50 million each depending on sources.  Which really isnt *that* much when you consider the amount of rights fees being paid.  But for NBC, they promised bigger ratings and had to give out a lot of make-goods to advertisers.  It would essentially be like Vince getting a TV contract for the XFL that pays $35-$50 million for one season.  Which seems like a lot...I dont know. 

A funny aside about The Ultimate Fighter.  UFC was on the verge of being shut down or sold and TUF was their last ditch plan to gain viewers.  It was originally conceived as a reality series following Dana White day to day.   Once they got the concept nailed down, they approached Vince to see if he minded them airing TUF since it was similar enough to be considered competition and Vince, thinking no one cared about MMA, said he didnt care at all.  They aired TUF immediately following RAW and it kept a large amount of its lead-in in the key demos and the rest is history.

Shane also wanted to buy UFC and...I think Ballator (might have been Pride) at various times and Vince always balked because he just didnt get MMA and thought it was barbaric.

Reminds me of a personal story.  When we started a wrestling promotion in late 2001, we did a big show at the UofM in March 2002...and coming off that, were approached by reps for Joe Doerksen.  They wanted to run some MMA shows and wanted to partner with people who could help cross-promote.  The idea was a one off fight at our next big event (at Shaw Park) but I presented a plan to my partner to open a sister-promotion, bring Joe on full time (we knew another guy in the business as well) and present quarterly MMA shows, use Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock as key "cross over" guys.  My partner angrily vetoed it and demanded I focus on wrestling and not even present the idea to our investor (who was a big MMA fan).  I always wished I had pushed the issue.  Its not my area of expertise but there was nothing in Winnipeg until later and those acts seems to do well for a time.  Oh well.  /personal story. lol

[wbbfan]

4 minutes ago, SPuDS said:

I think its high time we advance to the level where the field is full of robotic cyborgs who are neuro-connected to a player and they control the cyborg.   No injuries, no muss and no fuss! 

 

 

in all serious tho, you are very right in that we could be seeing the beginning of the end of football as we know it if medical findings continue to put the game in such a negative light and protection methods can't advance fast enough to keep the players safe.

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

It was $35-$50 million each depending on sources.  Which really isnt *that* much when you consider the amount of rights fees being paid.  But for NBC, they promised bigger ratings and had to give out a lot of make-goods to advertisers.  It would essentially be like Vince getting a TV contract for the XFL that pays $35-$50 million for one season.  Which seems like a lot...I dont know. 

A funny aside about The Ultimate Fighter.  UFC was on the verge of being shut down or sold and TUF was their last ditch plan to gain viewers.  It was originally conceived as a reality series following Dana White day to day.   Once they got the concept nailed down, they approached Vince to see if he minded them airing TUF since it was similar enough to be considered competition and Vince, thinking no one cared about MMA, said he didnt care at all.  They aired TUF immediately following RAW and it kept a large amount of its lead-in in the key demos and the rest is history.

Shane also wanted to buy UFC and...I think Ballator (might have been Pride) at various times and Vince always balked because he just didnt get MMA and thought it was barbaric.

Reminds me of a personal story.  When we started a wrestling promotion in late 2001, we did a big show at the UofM in March 2002...and coming off that, were approached by reps for Joe Doerksen.  They wanted to run some MMA shows and wanted to partner with people who could help cross-promote.  The idea was a one off fight at our next big event (at Shaw Park) but I presented a plan to my partner to open a sister-promotion, bring Joe on full time (we knew another guy in the business as well) and present quarterly MMA shows, use Dan Severn and Ken Shamrock as key "cross over" guys.  My partner angrily vetoed it and demanded I focus on wrestling and not even present the idea to our investor (who was a big MMA fan).  I always wished I had pushed the issue.  Its not my area of expertise but there was nothing in Winnipeg until later and those acts seems to do well for a time.  Oh well.  /personal story. lol

Not soo bad. Drop in the bucket compared to this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2014/05/16/wwe-ceo-vince-mcmahon-no-longer-billionaire-after-losing-340-million-in-a-day/#3a2cee445d49

Yeah i had heard that about TUF and the wwe. Pretty crazy. As a mma fan im glad it worked out. Though ive never watched tuf. 

Thats kind a crazy considering the old ufc to wwe cross over guys. 

Speaking of those cross over guys  thats an interesting story. As an mma fan its too bad that didnt take off. We need some grass roots help in the area. Especially considering how the ufc does here. I sure would have come out to see Dan severn.

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Not soo bad. Drop in the bucket compared to this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalexander/2014/05/16/wwe-ceo-vince-mcmahon-no-longer-billionaire-after-losing-340-million-in-a-day/#3a2cee445d49

Yeah i had heard that about TUF and the wwe. Pretty crazy. As a mma fan im glad it worked out. Though ive never watched tuf. 

Thats kind a crazy considering the old ufc to wwe cross over guys. 

Speaking of those cross over guys  thats an interesting story. As an mma fan its too bad that didnt take off. We need some grass roots help in the area. Especially considering how the ufc does here. I sure would have come out to see Dan severn.

I admit to not being a big UFC fan but wernt there a couple of groups here that did really well for a time?  Canadian Fighting Championship...I think? And one other?  Winnipeg was always listed among the best markets for UFC PPV views.  Like weirdly highly.

A local promotion brought Dan Severn in when he was NWA World Champion (2001) and did a 2/3 falls match with the company owner (who was not a wrestler) and the owner "tapped" him out in the 2nd fall.  Stupid as hell.  But there was little to no cross over among MMA and wrestling crowds locally that I observed.

On the big stage, Brock did bring a lot of wrestling fans to UFC.  I remember going to the bar to watch a couple of his fights and the traditional fight fans boo'ed the hell out of Brock while the wrestling fans cheered him like crazy.

The reason I've speculated that maybe Shane might be involved in the XFL is he's always tried to broaden WWE in other areas (and he himself sat on the board of a sports management company).  One of the reasons Shane might not be back in WWE as an executive is that he has a non-compete with a PPV company in China that he chairs.  Might not be the same issue with the XFL.  But thats mere speculation on my part.

Sorry to be off topic. 

Really, the success of the XFL will come down to hiring real football people and getting a sweet TV deal.  Part of the Ronda Rousey thing is upping WWE's profile as they go into TV rights negotiations and showing TV execs that they can bring big stars and mainstream headlines.  And while Alpha isnt WWE, its still Vince walking into a room and swinging his grapefruits around.

[wbbfan]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I admit to not being a big UFC fan but wernt there a couple of groups here that did really well for a time?  Canadian Fighting Championship...I think? And one other?  Winnipeg was always listed among the best markets for UFC PPV views.  Like weirdly highly.

A local promotion brought Dan Severn in when he was NWA World Champion (2001) and did a 2/3 falls match with the company owner (who was not a wrestler) and the owner "tapped" him out in the 2nd fall.  Stupid as hell.  But there was little to no cross over among MMA and wrestling crowds locally that I observed.

On the big stage, Brock did bring a lot of wrestling fans to UFC.  I remember going to the bar to watch a couple of his fights and the traditional fight fans boo'ed the hell out of Brock while the wrestling fans cheered him like crazy.

The reason I've speculated that maybe Shane might be involved in the XFL is he's always tried to broaden WWE in other areas (and he himself sat on the board of a sports management company).  One of the reasons Shane might not be back in WWE as an executive is that he has a non-compete with a PPV company in China that he chairs.  Might not be the same issue with the XFL.  But thats mere speculation on my part.

Sorry to be off topic. 

Really, the success of the XFL will come down to hiring real football people and getting a sweet TV deal.  Part of the Ronda Rousey thing is upping WWE's profile as they go into TV rights negotiations and showing TV execs that they can bring big stars and mainstream headlines.  And while Alpha isnt WWE, its still Vince walking into a room and swinging his grapefruits around.

Some events yes. A few fly by night small timers. In general I think we need a good true grass roots system. starting with amateur people training in the city. A pro regular event would draw and help develop that type of thing.

Winnipeg is a rough area, lots of people identify with the rougher sports. When i used to go to various sports bars for UFCs it was allways packed no matter where i went. 

I think brock was the right guy at the right time. Such a phenomenal athlete, A giant of a man, in the early stages of mma where he could have success. I dont think youd get that cross over any more. every one is exposed to mma now, and a guy like brock would be hard pressed to have a great deal of success. 

Its off season, I dont think off topic exists till atleast free agency. 

I think any league that lasts more then a year is likely to up cycle guys who would have fallen through the cracks. And lasting more then a season is pretty good success. I dont think any one stands much of a chance of lasting for good though. I think to do that they have to transcend into a cultural part of america. Like the cfl has up here. Like wrestling once was. But I expect to see them try to be flashy n make splashes instead. 

If the XFL is gonna start up in say 2 years, Id look to lock up FAs next year to 2 year deals. Give the NFL window and all. But I would start to prepare to prevent the XFL from grabbing a bunch of CFL FAs. 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Some events yes. A few fly by night small timers. In general I think we need a good true grass roots system. starting with amateur people training in the city. A pro regular event would draw and help develop that type of thing.

Winnipeg is a rough area, lots of people identify with the rougher sports. When i used to go to various sports bars for UFCs it was allways packed no matter where i went. 

I think brock was the right guy at the right time. Such a phenomenal athlete, A giant of a man, in the early stages of mma where he could have success. I dont think youd get that cross over any more. every one is exposed to mma now, and a guy like brock would be hard pressed to have a great deal of success. 

Its off season, I dont think off topic exists till atleast free agency. 

I think any league that lasts more then a year is likely to up cycle guys who would have fallen through the cracks. And lasting more then a season is pretty good success. I dont think any one stands much of a chance of lasting for good though. I think to do that they have to transcend into a cultural part of america. Like the cfl has up here. Like wrestling once was. But I expect to see them try to be flashy n make splashes instead. 

If the XFL is gonna start up in say 2 years, Id look to lock up FAs next year to 2 year deals. Give the NFL window and all. But I would start to prepare to prevent the XFL from grabbing a bunch of CFL FAs. 

One issue with Winnipeg and MMA was the lousy Boxing Commission.  I rented my ring to a local group to run a Boxing show and the commission was down there measuring every aspect of the ring to see if it was "regulation".  Not a safety thing, a "annoying by the books to screw with you and show you who's boss" thing.  Remember they also came down on Hal Jordan when he did Foxy Boxing and desperately wanted to regulate wrestling again.  The commission used to be a totally corrupt group.

[wbbfan]

3 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

One issue with Winnipeg and MMA was the lousy Boxing Commission.  I rented my ring to a local group to run a Boxing show and the commission was down there measuring every aspect of the ring to see if it was "regulation".  Not a safety thing, a "annoying by the books to screw with you and show you who's boss" thing.  Remember they also came down on Hal Jordan when he did Foxy Boxing and desperately wanted to regulate wrestling again.  The commission used to be a totally corrupt group.

Yeah idk how it is now but they used to be areal stick in the mud. Given the ufc coming here I imagine some people with money either greased them or strong armed them into not being stupid. 

[JCon]

39 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

Yeah idk how it is now but they used to be areal stick in the mud. Given the ufc coming here I imagine some people with money either greased them or strong armed them into not being stupid. 

It changed to the Manitoba Combative Sports Commission a few years ago to recognize the shift from boxing to MMA.

[bigg jay]

9 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

One issue with Winnipeg and MMA was the lousy Boxing Commission.  I rented my ring to a local group to run a Boxing show and the commission was down there measuring every aspect of the ring to see if it was "regulation".  Not a safety thing, a "annoying by the books to screw with you and show you who's boss" thing.  Remember they also came down on Hal Jordan when he did Foxy Boxing and desperately wanted to regulate wrestling again.  The commission used to be a totally corrupt group.

Goldstein has some good (ie terrible) stories of the old commission from the 80's and 90's.  They changed leadership in 96 or 97 but major, albeit different, issues remained.  Another leadership change about 10 years ago has made a huge difference.  

[bigg jay]

9 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Some events yes. A few fly by night small timers. In general I think we need a good true grass roots system. starting with amateur people training in the city. A pro regular event would draw and help develop that type of thing.

We have multiple gyms in the city where amateur fighters can train.  Problem is amateur mma & kickboxing are illegal in Manitoba so they can train here but not fight.

I wouldn't call the promoters we used to have (CFC & UCW) "fly by night" when they held dozens of events over the course of a decade.  UCW essentially ended when Krzysztof Sozynski's mma career took him out of Winnipeg  (they had a couple shows without him but it didn't last).  CFC stopped running shows because they didn't make money (same issue virtually every promotion in Canada faces unless they are the UFC).

[The Unknown Poster]

18 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

Goldstein has some good (ie terrible) stories of the old commission from the 80's and 90's.  They changed leadership in 96 or 97 but major, albeit different, issues remained.  Another leadership change about 10 years ago has made a huge difference.  

Yes Marty will gladly tell the story of anyone asks    

If the commission still existed and regulated wrestling I’m not sure what the local market would look like but some very good talent might not have had the opportunity to develop.  

The provoncial study a few years ago looked at bringing it back and fortunately Marty headed the study because I know people that were Pro commission. that study was the result of a drunk wrestler suffering a stinger 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, bigg jay said:

We have multiple gyms in the city where amateur fighters can train.  Problem is amateur mma & kickboxing are illegal in Manitoba so they can train here but not fight.

I wouldn't call the promoters we used to have (CFC & UCW) "fly by night" when they held dozens of events over the course of a decade.  UCW essentially ended when Krzysztof Sozynski's mma career took him out of Winnipeg  (they had a couple shows without him but it didn't last).  CFC stopped running shows because they didn't make money (same issue virtually every promotion in Canada faces unless they are the UFC).

We hosted some shows that had kickboxing. They billed it as an exhibition. Is that how they got around the commission?  It was definitely a shoot and the fighters were going all out. 

[bigg jay]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

We hosted some shows that had kickboxing. They billed it as an exhibition. Is that how they got around the commission?  It was definitely a shoot and the fighters were going all out. 

At that time yes, an exhibition would have been outside the scope of the commission as they only regulate pro fights.

 Amateur kickboxing used to be legal here but when the feds updated their laws to clearly make mma legal (it was a grey area), they accidently made some amateur stuff illegal due to the wording (another grey area).  Now you need a recognized PSO willing to sanction a sport before a province will allow it.  

[wbbfan]

17 hours ago, bigg jay said:

We have multiple gyms in the city where amateur fighters can train.  Problem is amateur mma & kickboxing are illegal in Manitoba so they can train here but not fight.

I wouldn't call the promoters we used to have (CFC & UCW) "fly by night" when they held dozens of events over the course of a decade.  UCW essentially ended when Krzysztof Sozynski's mma career took him out of Winnipeg  (they had a couple shows without him but it didn't last).  CFC stopped running shows because they didn't make money (same issue virtually every promotion in Canada faces unless they are the UFC).

Im talking the likes of CFM, ones based out of mb. werent both cfc and ucw based out side of the city but held events here?

Money in mma in general is a huge problem. 

8 hours ago, Noeller said:

Probably about time for this thread to head over to the Gen Forum...

off season mode engaged!!!!!!!!

[Brandon]

At one time MMA was profitable in the city...  I think the popularity though has decreased and it's hard to find a venue where you can put on a show and where the venue doesn't bend you over for their costs... 

[bigg jay]

3 hours ago, wbbfan said:

Im talking the likes of CFM, ones based out of mb. werent both cfc and ucw based out side of the city but held events here?

CFC was Giuseppe Denatale, his CFC gym is one of the biggest and oldest in Winnipeg so 100% local.

UCW was Tony Condello and Krzysztof Sozynski so again 100% local.

CFM was Gabe Santos.  He helped Tony with UCW when Krystof moved away but they shut down soon after.  He obviously didn't learn enough from that experience because CFM did not last beyond 2 shows (maybe 3?).

The only non-local promotions i can think of in the last 10 years were AFC (2 shows) and King of the Cage (1 show).  Neither were fly by night either (both were fairly successful in western Canada), they just didn't have the local support to keep running here.

Mods can move these posts if they'd like, not a big deal.

[bigg jay]

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

At one time MMA was profitable in the city...  I think the popularity though has decreased and it's hard to find a venue where you can put on a show and where the venue doesn't bend you over for their costs... 

Venue is the biggest issue imo.  Everyone runs the convention center which is expensive and keeps 100% of alcohol sales (at least that's what I heard anyway).

 In Alberta, they usually run pro/am cards & not having to pay half the fighters is the only way they make a profit... Not an option here at this time.

[Brandon]

I can verify .... convention center is very very expensive.  

I'm not sure of any venue that could hold a decent crowd with good sight lines where the promoter could get a cut of the booze revenue. 

[The Unknown Poster]

10 hours ago, Brandon said:

I can verify .... convention center is very very expensive.  

I'm not sure of any venue that could hold a decent crowd with good sight lines where the promoter could get a cut of the booze revenue. 

Was it $6500?  There have been wrestling events there too.  Im not a big fan.  I didn attend a boxing show there once and it was ok. 

IGAC at the UofM is a great venue with bleachers on both sides (for good site lines) and good facilities.  i've run a wrestling show there.  Fairly reasonably priced.  Holds..., 3000 in the stands I believe and X amount on the floor (400-500).  You can opt to open only one side and have the other curtained off.

But as you guys said, what venue will give up booze sales?

I was the middle man for a few "exhibitions" of boxing, kick-boxing.  I cant remember the gym but I knew one of the guys from wrestling and he approached me about getting into the LID Nightclub.  Apparently even a smaller venue was hard to come by.  So they get the venue for free, keep all the ticket sales money and split "VIP tables" (food etc) with the venue who handles all the catering.  Sound, lights, security etc is all handled on site so its an easy set up for the gym.  And you're selling 500+ tickets.

I got the same gym a couple of shows at Dylans on Pembina too and they rented my ring.  Thats when the commission seemed overly interested and was down there with measuring tapes and jumping up and down in the ring to measure the give etc. 

[Brandon]

More then $6500.... looking at low 5 digits.       

You could make money promoting MMA shows,  but with all the effort and risk it's not worth it.

An ideal situation would be a smaller venue  with good sightlines and profit sharing on the concessions.   Somewhere that you could sell some tables at a higher cost to local businesses and reserves and so that any ticket sales in the stand would just be gravy in the pocket.

As hokey as WFX was,  the venue was almost big enough to put on good quality events. 

[The Unknown Poster]

19 hours ago, Brandon said:

More then $6500.... looking at low 5 digits.       

You could make money promoting MMA shows,  but with all the effort and risk it's not worth it.

An ideal situation would be a smaller venue  with good sightlines and profit sharing on the concessions.   Somewhere that you could sell some tables at a higher cost to local businesses and reserves and so that any ticket sales in the stand would just be gravy in the pocket.

As hokey as WFX was,  the venue was almost big enough to put on good quality events. 

WFX at IGAC?  Yes, thats a great venue.  WFX ran there because the promoter was my former partner and we had run it in 2002.  It was cheaper than the Convention Centre.  We were supposed to run it again that summer but got hoodwinked into going to SHAW Park instead.

[wbbfan]

On 1/30/2018 at 9:11 PM, bigg jay said:

CFC was Giuseppe Denatale, his CFC gym is one of the biggest and oldest in Winnipeg so 100% local.

UCW was Tony Condello and Krzysztof Sozynski so again 100% local.

CFM was Gabe Santos.  He helped Tony with UCW when Krystof moved away but they shut down soon after.  He obviously didn't learn enough from that experience because CFM did not last beyond 2 shows (maybe 3?).

The only non-local promotions i can think of in the last 10 years were AFC (2 shows) and King of the Cage (1 show).  Neither were fly by night either (both were fairly successful in western Canada), they just didn't have the local support to keep running here.

Mods can move these posts if they'd like, not a big deal.

Yeah i know, it was. Its kinda split since rodrigo munduruca left for his own BJJ school, though he isnt in the city so much any more. He has kind of settled into this satellite teachers role. Setting up gyms here, edm, la (iirc) etc When he was at CFC it was an incredible gym. The godfather is an excellent stand up coach though.  Cfc has been mma since like 2009, and around in stand up since 02 not that old, but there just isnt much else for mma in winnipeg. 

2 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

So the XFL losses were $137,988,000. 

When NBC pulled out, Vince was willing to keep going with UPN as the main partner (they were going to be the main broadcaster until NBC had come on board) but UPN would only do it if Vince accepted a reduced Smackdown and he wasnt going to cannibalize his wrestling for football.

Vince doesnt want partners or outside investors this time.  He wants to maintain control himself and will sink in more money if need be but, acknowledging he's a businessman, wont sink an unlimited amount.

The initial PBP guy was Mark Vasgersian who was replaced by Jim Ross who did a much better job but was considered a "wrestling guy".

On the Anthem front, its interesting that Vince has never been a big fan of airing the anthem in wrestling.  He uses America The Beautiful instead of the anthem and even then, rarely uses it anymore.  So Im curious if he chooses to either not play the Anthem or uses America the beautiful instead.

Most players made $50,000 - $60,000 the first go around.

I found a lot of conflicting reports on the amount lost so idk. Either way you cut it it was super rich guys losing a lot of money to us, but not as much as the pride lost to them. 

Not a wrestling guy at all, but jim ross was a bright spot. 

 

 

[Jpan85]

Thought that this would be more appropriate here