Police and Arrests

[The Unknown Poster]

Ten cops piled on a guy and yelling to put his hands behind his back and stop resisting.  Police forces need to weed out the cowboys and learn effective restraint techniques that don’t involve piling on more and more cops. 

In regards to the other incident in this thread I thought the guy was resisting somewhat and likely the police were fine up to and including the take down (although they also could have de-escalated verbally but what fun is that?) The hand on the throat though?  Not a police technique. 

[Tracker]

The police are recruited from the general population and will inevitably contain some problematic individuals. The problems arise when a questionable incident occurs and the "blue wall" goes up regardless of the culpability of the officer(s) involved. Many officers assume a "us vs them" in regards to the public and refuse to admit that any officer is capable and guilty of criminal actions. In fact police are one of the top three family violence perpetrators. A friend who was with the Winnipeg force witnessed a troubling event and went to his supervisor who informed him that if he brought the complaint forward he would be charged along with the two other officers. He chose to resign.

[The Unknown Poster]

48 minutes ago, tracker said:

The police are recruited from the general population and will inevitably contain some problematic individuals. The problems arise when a questionable incident occurs and the "blue wall" goes up regardless of the culpability of the officer(s) involved. Many officers assume a "us vs them" in regards to the public and refuse to admit that any officer is capable and guilty of criminal actions. In fact police are one of the top three family violence perpetrators. A friend who was with the Winnipeg force witnessed a troubling event and went to his supervisor who informed him that if he brought the complaint forward he would be charged along with the two other officers. He chose to resign.

I’ve had it happen to me first hand. Angry cop wrote a false statement (false per video he didn’t know we had).  His partner wrote a statement supporting the angry cop.  When I went to LERA they questioned both cops privately.  Angry cop stuck to his story even when shown the video (he actually claimed video showing someone else was me hahaha)

his partner sheepishly admitted he “couldn’t be sure”. 

Many cops privately hate the blue wall but it comes with the job. 

Fun foot note to my story. LERA was on my side and was going to take it to a hearing where I’d get to question the officers directly. Police had eventually sent 20 cops to my workplace to execute a search warrant to get the video (thankfully we made a copy). I was tipped off that the WPS video team found nothing that supported their officers statements but the cops ignored repeated requests by the crown to turn over the video to her. 

She finally rattled enough cages and got it. Viewed it with my lawyer. Admitted it supported my position and said we’ll drop charges if he drops his LERA complaint 

how’s that for justice. 

Sorry off topic. I’m a law and order guy but police have to change.  

Edited May 3, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[Brandon]

I wasn't aware that Unknown Poster was a police officer?   

I'm not familiar with everyones incidents,  but usually when you comply and don't resist .... you don't end up being thrown to the ground and hurt.    The cowboys are isolated incidents and a very small minority of what happens in the world.

I've witnessed and seen online many videos of bouncers who go way over the edge and beat the crap out of drunk patrons or toss these drunk guys face first into cement.   Should I now suggest that all bouncers need to change?  I think bouncers like Unknown Poster need to change merely because some adrenalized up bouncers thousands of miles away did something wrong? 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

55 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I wasn't aware that Unknown Poster was a police officer?   

I'm not familiar with everyones incidents,  but usually when you comply and don't resist .... you don't end up being thrown to the ground and hurt.    The cowboys are isolated incidents and a very small minority of what happens in the world.

I've witnessed and seen online many videos of bouncers who go way over the edge and beat the crap out of drunk patrons or toss these drunk guys face first into cement.   Should I now suggest that all bouncers need to change?  I think bouncers like Unknown Poster need to change merely because some adrenalized up bouncers thousands of miles away did something wrong? 

 

i wasn’t aware you knew me or my history as a bouncer. Please detail these incidents where I’ve been a cowboy. 

As for being a cop, no I am not one 

but I strongly suspect I have far more experience and insight than you do. However that does not mean you can’t have an opinion. Although it sounds like you’re suggesting I can’t have one unless I’m a cop?

by the way, you can compare bouncers and cops in many ways but not the way you did. Bouncers being cowboys does not diminish the responsibility of cops at all. 

I agree that more often than not, cops are good. But I disagree that they are isolated incidents. They are the minority but not isolated. And the fact they are the minority should make it easy to nip and yet it keeps happening. 

Edited May 3, 2018 by The Unknown Poster

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

but I strongly suspect I have far more experience and insight than you do.

You don't.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion,  it doesn't mean your opinion is correct.  My main point was that you can't generalize everything because maybe once in a while something doesn't go right.

As for you being a bouncer ,  you mentioned it on these boards.    My example was to show that you can't assume everyone needs to change if 1 incident out of thousands is mishandled.     If the news showed the 1000's of clean arrests that happen daily then the news would be pretty boring.  

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Brandon said:

You don't.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion,  it doesn't mean your opinion is correct.  My main point was that you can't generalize everything because maybe once in a while something doesn't go right.

As for you being a bouncer ,  you mentioned it on these boards.    My example was to show that you can't assume everyone needs to change if 1 incident out of thousands is mishandled.     If the news showed the 1000's of clean arrests that happen daily then the news would be pretty boring.  

I said I suspect I have more knwowdge and insight than you.  It’s not about opinion. If you have experience and/or knowledge in the area by all means let us know. I’d value that if true. 

I do have experience and knowledge. 

If your opinion about the above video is valid why do you keep trying to make mine not valid? That’s what I don’t understand. My position was meant in regards to the incidents obviously not all police. I agreed with you on that point. 

I actually think we’re much closer to agreeing than disagreeing. 

When this is split to the general forum we can keep discussing 

I value  the discussion 

[Tracker]

In my experience, there are far more good cops than bad ones (at least here in Canada) but the few who offend are often protected and this leads to a bad culture within police forces. A few years ago, Winnipeg's police chief was asked how many convicted officers were still employed as police and he informed the reporter that the public had no right to know how many criminals were still on the job. It doesn't take that many rotten apples to contaminate the whole barrel.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, tracker said:

In my experience, there are far more good cops than bad ones (at least here in Canada) but the few who offend are often protected and this leads to a bad culture within police forces. A few years ago, Winnipeg's police chief was asked how many convicted officers were still employed as police and he informed the reporter that the public had no right to know how many criminals were still on the job. It doesn't take that many rotten apples to contaminate the whole barrel.

I agree. I’ve worked closely with many cops and the bulk of them are great. But the culture of police is not condusive to weeding out the bad ones. 

And I do think there are training gaps. We saw it wirh the use of tasers where they were being over used. Just saw another video today of a take down. A suspect resisted and it looked like a dozen cops piled on him, punching and kicking.  It defies logic. 

[Brandon]

I don't know about the culture not conducive to weeding out the bad ones,    I've noticed a massive shift/change over the last five years.        In Manitoba the WPS and RCMP are trained properly and we are fortunate to have professional and great police forces. 

In the States it's so much more difficult and so much variety in how each region trains and supports (financially) that some places are great and others not so much.     Also the clientele across the States vary so much...  I would assume being a patrol cop in Grand Forks would generally be safe and dull and for most police calls the threat of danger would be very low.   Now compare this to Chicago where the homicide rate is really high and where if you are  White/Asian and drive in the wrong area it's almost a guarantee that you will get shot/beaten to a pulp....  I imagine these officers cannot take any call lightly and can't be passive and assume that every suspect will go down nicely and is not a threat to shoot them.        It's such apples and oranges and each situation is so unique that you can't criticize one cop for punching a guy down when another takes one down with only words.

I saw a video yesterday  (care of reddit 's subreddit of publicfreakouts )   where some big black dude is taking on three cops and beating them up and they are bashing his legs and trying to take him down but the guy is so messed up on drugs that nothing had effect on him.   The dude is shouting and threatening everyone and is a huge threat to the public...  sometimes the only way to take someone down is a massive beating or using excessive force. 

The other x-factor is human nature.... you can train people so much but sometimes training goes out the window.     To compare it to football...  we train our players to not get overly emotional and to not take bad penalties... how many times in the heat of the moment we see players take a dumb penalty....    kind of a weird comparison but my main point was that the only way we can have police officers to  all remain calm and to follow the book 100% in all situations and to make on the fly decisions in an instant is if we employ a group of these guys:

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Brandon

[The Unknown Poster]

For police training should never go out the window.  That’s why they train. 

Winnipeg has had a blue wall for years. Most cops are good here but it does happen here too. 

I agree about the training. If you watch LivePD you see different PD’s doing things very differently. I perked up while watching last night because an officer cuffed someone the way I was trained to. 

You also see community minded policing vs military style. Very different from PD to PD. 

I don’t how often (or if at all) cops attend refreshers on self defense, restraint etc. But three cops vs one big guy should not require a beating unless those cops don’t have tasers or billy clubs (but kudos to them for not just shooting the guy) 

[The Unknown Poster]

We don’t celebrate good cops enough. But what happens if this isn’t caught on film?

 

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I don’t how often (or if at all) cops attend refreshers on self defense, restraint etc. But three cops vs one big guy should not require a beating unless those cops don’t have tasers or billy clubs (but kudos to them for not just shooting the guy) 

The stories I've heard of trying to restrain a guy messed up on drugs are crazy.  They become super human and physically can not be held down.    I've seen videos of guys being tased and they just keep walking as if nothing is being done to them.   

It's not like the officers have endless time to learn how to be complete MMA artist.     

Think of UFC 1 - 5 ...  guys with black belts in karate and tae-kwon-do spent years and years of training learning a  martial art..... to end up resorting to throwing bar room brawl type haymakers because in real fights none of those traditional techniques are fairly useless.

I'm not any kind of expert of fighting or taking out other people,  but I'd imagine the best techniques would be to bash someones legs and maybe pummel the liver.   Either way asking someone to stay still and trying to hug them to restrain them does not work at all. 

[Jacquie]

18 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

We don’t celebrate good cops enough. But what happens if this isn’t caught on film?

 

I saw that video posted in another feed and in the comments someone posted this:

 

[Jacquie]

On 2018-05-03 at 8:14 AM, The Unknown Poster said:

Ten cops piled on a guy and yelling to put his hands behind his back and stop resisting.  Police forces need to weed out the cowboys and learn effective restraint techniques that don’t involve piling on more and more cops. 

In regards to the other incident in this thread I thought the guy was resisting somewhat and likely the police were fine up to and including the take down (although they also could have de-escalated verbally but what fun is that?) The hand on the throat though?  Not a police technique. 

The guy was already in handcuffs when he was taken down according to the account he posted on Facebook.

[Tracker]

One recent incident occurred in Maryland after body camera footage showed one officer telling another officer that a man “didn’t do anything” only to arrest him later anyway. As written by The Baltimore Sun:

The Annapolis Police Department opened internal investigations after an officer pepper sprayed a man following a fight in downtown Annapolis and then arrested him despite telling another officer he “didn’t do anything.” [...]

[Officer Jamal Davis] says several times he does not plan to charge [Ryan Greenstreet], but others officers off-screen question his decision. Police eventually charged Greenstreet with interfering with an arrest and [Michael Richardson, who was involved in the fight] with disorderly conduct and resisting arrest.

[The Unknown Poster]

Interesting development in Mesa where two investigations are on going. 

In this one, officers violently strike the suspect with punches and knees. 

The police have responded by banning strikes unless in defense from a suspect actively fighting and striking them.  Seems pretty common sense. 

Video at the link

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/08/us/mesa-arizona-police-punch-man-video/index.html

[FrostyWinnipeg]

6 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Interesting development in Mesa where two investigations are on going. 

In this one, officers violently strike the suspect with punches and knees. 

The police have responded by banning strikes unless in defense from a suspect actively fighting and striking them.  Seems pretty common sense. 

Video at the link

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/06/08/us/mesa-arizona-police-punch-man-video/index.html

Again?

[Jacquie]

13 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Again?

No, same incident. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

This is a good example of police commands being unclear.  I’m sure to the officers their commands were very clear, the suspect did not cooperate and they felt the need to taser him (lest he somehow fight all of them). 

To the suspect, he is not threatening, non aggressive and is complying when he is suddenly tased.