Portage & Main

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, bustamente said:

Well if they have a referendum and the polls are to be believed then this discussion is moot,  Portage and Main will remain closed for the foreseeable future, that is if the politicians listen to the public.

I agree 100%.  Its a lousy precedent to set.  im looking forward to future referendums on all decisions we elect politicians to make lol

Bowman did make the point that the result is non-binding.  So he could win and simply disregard it (breaking his promise, though he also promised to open it so he's breaking that one anyway) or, more likely, hope it puts the issue to bed, wins a third term without it being an issue and immediately sets about opening P&M since he'd have a fresh mandate. 

Thankfully they didnt go this route for the MTSC.  Or the Jets wouldn't be here right now.

[Brandon]

No one called you a troll. I suggested you were trolling when you completely ignored my valid points that most people have against the idea.

I love to banter and rant but at least when I'm proven wrong I can at least admit that I don't know everything.  It would help you to be to be humble and admit that you can be wrong.

It will help prevent yourself from digging a deeper hole. 

Back to topic on hand. If money wasn't a factor and I had all the power in the world. I would make Broadway the must be place for locals and tourists.

The layout is better, much more area for walking around. I would even entertain closing it off and making it something similar to Sparks street in Ottawa with big patios and lots of restaurants and bars.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

8 minutes ago, Brandon said:

No one called you a troll. I suggested you were trolling when you completely ignored my valid points that most people have against the idea.

I love to banter and rant but at least when I'm proven wrong I can at least admit that I don't know everything.  It would help you to be to be humble and admit that you can be wrong.

It will help prevent yourself from digging a deeper hole. 

Back to topic on hand. If money wasn't a factor and I had all the power in the world. I would make Broadway the must be place for locals and tourists.

The layout is better, much more area for walking around. I would even entertain closing it off and making it something similar to Sparks street in Ottawa with big patios and lots of restaurants and bars.

 

Ive said numerous times that I can be wrong.  Im only human.  But I wont say Im wrong when Im not.  What good would that do? lol

Interesting you mention Broadway because I believe it was Broadway and Memorial that has similar traffic volume to P&M (I think I saw the stat as 90%).  Regent and Lag, same thing...huge, busy intersection.

I appreciate your perspective.  I originally thought opening it was a crazy idea but I was open to exploring the idea.

When I peruse social media I see most people get hung up on three issues:  Safety, travel time, money.

In regards to safety, just moments ago, I saw someone I actually am friends with claim that as soon as a person gets hit or there is a fender bender, its going to be gridlock.  But that could happen anywhere and an accident at P&M is gridlock regardless.  The stats on car/pedestrian accidents show it to actually be a rather rare occurence.  Opening P&M should not drastically increase the risk to pedestrians or the risk of car accidents.

Travel time...I mean, that's where we're going to disagree.  I've sat for ages on Kenaston trying to make the ten minute drive home.  I've sat on Pembina for ages doing the same thing.  Waverly?  It can be bad.  But if we're being honest, we're talking about one hour in the morning and one hour in the evening, 5 days a week.  Its rather smooth sailing the rest of the time.  Will it be longer, sure.  Currently, people use crosswalks on Portage and Main that are close to the intersection.  Its not like its a freeway through there for miles.

Money.  This one is mostly "spend it on my street instead".  Its not a lot of money relatively speaking. 

We can't just choose a new cool street.  P&M is important, not because its an every day gathering place but because it could be and because of the masses of people in the area and the lack of ability to cross easily and safely impedes growth. 

Its extremely lousy for people with disabilities to get across using Winnipeg Square.  Many women have expressed their sense of being unsafe when going underground at certain times.

Its been closed for 40 years.  Opening it is worth a shot.  You cant just remove the barricades tomorrow and let it be chaos, I agree.  Make a plan and embrace it.  Thats all Im saying.

[Goalie]

Portage could be like Broadway also btw. Rather easily. As a matter of fact in theory you could run an LRT line plus bike protected lane plus likely 2 possibly 3 lanes for Traffic on each side if they wanted.. Tons of room. Opening it up is step 1 to a more vibrant safer Portage Avenue. Like Sherbrook street by Stellas and The Tallest poppy and that area. .. Pretty sweet layout there. That works downtown.. LRT cuts down on congestion btw so you dont need as many lanes. 2 go both ways on portage plus lrt line and bike line = ideal and very doable

Edited July 19, 2018 by Goalie

[Brandon]

We will disagree with what creates growth downtown.

#1 not even close to anything else which is killing downtown is the safety issue. You mention women being unsafe underground. Nearly everyone feels unsafe after 6 above ground.  Opening the intersection won't drive away the bad apples. 

 

[bustamente]

LRT would of been the right choice but this city is stuck doing things that were done years ago by other cities.

[The Unknown Poster]

10 minutes ago, Brandon said:

We will disagree with what creates growth downtown.

#1 not even close to anything else which is killing downtown is the safety issue. You mention women being unsafe underground. Nearly everyone feels unsafe after 6 above ground.  Opening the intersection won't drive away the bad apples. 

 

Keeping it closed doesn’t change that. But if you’re someone who feels unsafe crossing underground at night you certainly would feel safer crossing at street level.   

Another topic:

 

[Brandon]

So we completely inconvenience tens of thousands of people to make life easier for maybe 10 people a day to cross an intersection.

Come on now.  Weak weak argument.  If that is the best you can find then close the thread because that is turrible. 

Why not bring up how windy and cold it is during winter and how for 7 months of the year people won't be crossing. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, Brandon said:

So we completely inconvenience tens of thousands of people to make life easier for maybe 10 people a day to cross an intersection.

Come on now.  Weak weak argument.  If that is the best you can find then close the thread because that is turrible. 

Why not bring up how windy and cold it is during winter and how for 7 months of the year people won't be crossing. 

 

That’s only one of the very good reasons. And we’ve discussions several do you know that’s not the only one. 

Its also a matter of perspective as to what is considered an inconvenience and to how many it applies.  

One hour in the morning.  One hour in the evening.  Monday to Friday.  It’s not equilibrium to shutting down the intersection to traffic. 

[Brandon]

Delete please and thanks

Edited July 19, 2018 by Brandon

[FrostyWinnipeg]

We all win?

PS : I have not worked out the snow removal part.

Edited July 20, 2018 by FrostyWinnipeg

[Jimmy Pop]

3 hours ago, Rich said:

My issue with opening up Portage & Main is that it really can't be compared to other intersections in most major downtown cities.   

Most intersections are true 4 way intersections where the majority of traffic flows straight in all directions and you have some cars turning left and right that can be handled with turning lanes on busy streets to minimize the impact on the majority of the car flow as those turning cars wait for pedestrians to cross.

When Portage hits Main Street the majority of the traffic flow is turning either left or right onto Main with a smaller percent of traffic going straight on Portage Avenue East.   It is the opposite.  So having the majority of your car flow having to wait for pedestrians to cross will absolutely have a huge impact up Portage and probably Main if they make the green light longer to compensate for pedestrians.     

Does anyone really think opening up Portage & Main will revitalize the downtown?  I worked downtown for years and even if they made patios and whatever to try to make it compelling, I'm there to work most of the time during the day, so I'm not going to get a lot of use out of it.  

Seems to me, the motivation to open up Portage & Main is to revitalize it as a "meeting place" downtown for significant and special  events.  It is Winnipeg's most iconic intersection and people want it to be open to gather for special events.    Take down the permanent barricades, replace them with something that can be easily removed.   Keep the barricades up for rush hour and most days.  Take them down when you want to use the intersection as a "meeting place" for whatever event you want people to gather for.  

I don't work downtown anymore, nor do I need to go through it for my daily commute, so this doesn't really affect me one way or the other.   But I don't think the benefits of this outweigh what is already a horrible rush hour bottle neck.

If we can't compare P&M to other city's intersections, shouldn't we also avoid comparing rush hour travel times.  I'm sure any of our out-of-province posters could remind those who aren't familiar about travelling in Cgy, Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal.  Part of Winnipeg's car culture problem is 1) we really, really like to drive and relating to that 2) our transit blows and is a major headache for people.  But I think we all *should* be able to agree that a 30-40 mins drive home (for example) isn't that bad comparatively.  

One reason that people are presenting as a benefit for opening is accessibility.  The walking detour down the street, down flights of stairs, up the other side etc isn't possible for every person (disabilities).  Whereas everyone can, as a matter of fact, spend an minute extra at a light. They may hate it, it may be awful for the city, maybe's possibly's and what if's - - I completely acknowledge. 

Will opening P&M in and of itself revitalize Winnipeg?  Of course, not.  Did the building of MTS Centre?  How 'bout the NHL's return?  Artis Reit's 300 Main announcement? That's another thing we do a lot of here.... I don't see how "A" benefits "B" so let's cancel A before we spell the rest of the alphabet.  

I, too, have no skin in the game, other than a love for the city I was born and raised in.  My strongest opinion on the whole topic is just that the debate being THIS heated is so, so Winnipeg.... the world's biggest small town. 

[SpeedFlex27]

As requested, a perspective from a Calgarian on what we're doing but also a former Winnipeger who grew up there.  I remember when the intersection being discussed was closed.

In the early 1970's Winnipeg could have had a light rail transit system. Mayor Stephen Juba proposed a monorail system similar to what Vancouver has now in & around 1970.  He was laughed at & ridiculed for the idea & it never went forward. Then Vancouver went ahead with their above ground light rail system in 1976 while Edmonton & Calgary went ahead with their own surface light rail systems in the late 70's. 

It didn't help that before Uni City ( the name that was given to the merger of all the different cities with the City of Winnipeg) was called there were 2 local governments running against & competing with one another before the merger. The Metro Corporation was established in 1961 & was funded by the province to oversee all the small cities like Transcona, St, Vital, St. Boniface, Ft. Garry, St. James etc. The Chairman was Jack Willis.  Then there was the  City of Winnipeg with Mayor Juba.  Both governments seldom got along & clashed over a number of things like what projects should  be built, who would pay what & how much, who should oversee & maintain infrastructure  such as roads, bridges, sewer & water, street cleaning & snow clearing, etc. Juba's idea of a monorail system was opposed by the Metro Corporation & by extension the Province. Winnipeg City Councillors didn't like the idea of a monorail system either & Juba's idea died. 

The Metro Corporation was dissolved on January 1, 1972 when the suburban cities merged with the City of Winnipeg. Judging by what Edmonton, Calgary & Vancouver did with light rapid transit it turned out to be an opportunity lost. Now, it's probably too expensive for Winnipeg to even think of starting even a small LRT system. What a difference an LRT would have made to traffic congestion in Winnipeg & moving people to & from the suburbs to downtown & back. 

Calgary's first LRT line was completed in 1981 & went NW from the downtown to McMahon Stadium & the U of C. Of course, this was a boon for the 1988 Winter Olympics. A second line was built to go south from downtown as well & construction started a month after the NW line was opened for service in 1981.  I believe that the NW line wasn't more than 10 kms in length.  Since then, the LRT has expanded to all 4 quadrants of the City from north to south.  Currently there are 59 kms of  C Train service on the Red & Blue lines that carry over 306,000 people during the work week from Monday to Friday. That's a lot of cars taken off the roads during rush hour mornings & evenings.

When I say expensive just chew on these numbers. Calgary is building another LRT line from  downtown  to the deep SE of Calgary. The first leg will be approximately 25 kms in length. Eventually the entire Green Line as it is called will be 39 kms long with eventual completion of the second leg to be finished within the next 15-20 years .The cost of the first leg is $4.5 billion dollars. Cost of the first leg of the new Green Line will be shared three ways by the City of Calgary, the Province of AB & Ottawa.  As an aside, there are federal dollars for projects like this but cities & provinces have to sign on first before the feds will pay their one third. 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

[FrostyWinnipeg]

7 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Calgary's first LRT line...

Blah blah blah..

Dont know why people compare Winnipeg to Calgary/Edmonton or MB to AB. To me they are night and day. 1st world vs 2nd world. Rich vs Poor. Prairies vs majestic mountains.

But hey we got lakes and hydro.

[nate007]

On 2018-07-19 at 4:17 PM, Brandon said:

Why not bring up how windy and cold it is during winter and how for 7 months of the year people won't be crossing. 

 

Please stop using the argument that weather will sometimes stop people from using something as an excuse to not build infrastructure. People use it a lot when it comes to P&M and dedicated bike lanes. Using that logic, there should be no baseball diamonds, soccer pitches, football fields, or beaches anywhere in Manitoba.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

9 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Blah blah blah..

Dont know why people compare Winnipeg to Calgary/Edmonton or MB to AB. To me they are night and day. 1st world vs 2nd world. Rich vs Poor. Prairies vs majestic mountains.

But hey we got lakes and hydro.

No, don't compare Winnipeg to any other city.  Rich vs poor?  1st world vs 2nd??? What a dipshit comment. Glad you think so highly of the place you live. I live in Calgary & if I could come back I would in a heartbeat.  You don't know how good you have it. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

[Goalie]

10 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Blah blah blah..

Dont know why people compare Winnipeg to Calgary/Edmonton or MB to AB. To me they are night and day. 1st world vs 2nd world. Rich vs Poor. Prairies vs majestic mountains.

But hey we got lakes and hydro.

Then leave and take your **** attitude with you. Winnipeg isnt the problem... Its people like you who are. Leave and go buy the house you live in here in Calgary or Vancouvers worst neighbourhood for 500k. Whatever respect i had for you is now completely gone. What a piece of **** comment. Seriously leave now. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Goalie

[Brandon]

10 hours ago, nate007 said:

Please stop using the argument that weather will sometimes stop people from using something as an excuse to not build infrastructure. People use it a lot when it comes to P&M and dedicated bike lanes. Using that logic, there should be no baseball diamonds, soccer pitches, football fields, or beaches anywhere in Manitoba.

 

And why does our attendance dip for Bomber games as the weather grows colder even if we are riding a hot team going into the play offs.

The intersection with the most powerful and howling winds and them wanting to set up cafes and a place to stop at this same intersection and you don't think weather would make an impact?  Is your first name Nasty?

[Jacquie]

On 2018-07-19 at 4:07 PM, The Unknown Poster said:

Keeping it closed doesn’t change that. But if you’re someone who feels unsafe crossing underground at night you certainly would feel safer crossing at street level.   

Another topic:

 

It's been a while since I've walked through that area but I think they came up with the absolute worst route to try to make a point.

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Not a single yield at P&M. What is it with this city we have to build as close to major intersections as possible? Stapon n Regent comes to mind with only 1.

[Goalie]

34 minutes ago, Brandon said:

And why does our attendance dip for Bomber games as the weather grows colder even if we are riding a hot team going into the play offs.

The intersection with the most powerful and howling winds and them wanting to set up cafes and a place to stop at this same intersection and you don't think weather would make an impact?  Is your first name Nasty?

Ppl dont like sitting outside for 3 hours when its cold... 

Ppl will be crossing P and M for 30 seconds. 

 

What a dumb comparison. Seriously. Do better. I want it opened and even i can think of a better reason than that.. 

 

I guess the question for you becomes.. Why not close all intersections to people then and just let cars rule the streets completely.. Since apparently you cant wait a minute or 2 for ppl to cross when you are at a red light. Cuz you gotta be home faster apparently.. Maybe u gotta take a dump or maybe just one of the many idiot drivers in this city. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Goalie

[Fatty Liver]

On 2018-07-19 at 2:17 PM, Brandon said:

So we completely inconvenience tens of thousands of people to make life easier for maybe 10 people a day to cross an intersection.

Come on now.  Weak weak argument.  If that is the best you can find then close the thread because that is turrible. 

Why not bring up how windy and cold it is during winter and how for 7 months of the year people won't be crossing. 

 

On average 77,000 vehicles cross through that intersection every weekday, no other intersection in Wpg. is even close to handling that volume of traffic. To compare Wpg. to other cities designed on a rectangular grid is illogical, one look at a map will confirm it's a whole different ball of wax.  Both Portage and Main are funnels and because of the nearby intersection of two major rivers, parallel diversions for either do not exist.  Keep 'er closed.

[Brandon]

14 hours ago, Goalie said:

Ppl dont like sitting outside for 3 hours when its cold... 

Ppl will be crossing P and M for 30 seconds. 

 

What a dumb comparison. Seriously. Do better. I want it opened and even i can think of a better reason than that.. 

 

I guess the question for you becomes.. Why not close all intersections to people then and just let cars rule the streets completely.. Since apparently you cant wait a minute or 2 for ppl to cross when you are at a red light. Cuz you gotta be home faster apparently.. Maybe u gotta take a dump or maybe just one of the many idiot drivers in this city. 

Lol it's not 2 minutes though... when the streets are gridlocked (during rush hour) it effects everyone waiting down the street at other lights.  I think you are equally confused on how it impacts the times.   It would only be a minute or two *if* every other intersection was clear and that if that set of lights were the only one you would hit.    Nearly every day I sit waiting at a green light because ahead of me it is lined up with people unable to move forward.  The ligth at P & M is the main set of lights which help clear out the backlog on Portage since Main has the extra lane and generally moves quicker.  

A dumb comparison you say... if that were the case then how come in Winter the sky walks are completely packed and the sidewalks are empty?   

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Brandon

[The Unknown Poster]

19 hours ago, nate007 said:

Please stop using the argument that weather will sometimes stop people from using something as an excuse to not build infrastructure. People use it a lot when it comes to P&M and dedicated bike lanes. Using that logic, there should be no baseball diamonds, soccer pitches, football fields, or beaches anywhere in Manitoba.

 

Yup and actually its an ill-informed opinion since people here make the "joke" that we're freezing 7 months out of the year which just isnt true.  Ill go dig up the stats if I have to but its somethign like 200 or 250 days above -5 or -10 or something.  But even if the remaining cold day, with the wind at that corner are an issue, the "keep it closed" folks should be thrilled because on days like that a lot of people will retreat to the underground and then the 2 minutes of extra commute will be even less!

[The Unknown Poster]

6 hours ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

On average 77,000 vehicles cross through that intersection every weekday, no other intersection in Wpg. is even close to handling that volume of traffic. To compare Wpg. to other cities designed on a rectangular grid is illogical, one look at a map will confirm it's a whole different ball of wax.  Both Portage and Main are funnels and because of the nearby intersection of two major rivers, parallel diversions for either do not exist.  Keep 'er closed.

I believe this is untrue.  I dont count cars but I've seen other intersections used as examples in the 90% range.  Not as many, of course, but certainly it doesnt result in "no other intersection even close". 

We're talking about 2 minutes of commute, for one hour, twice a day Monday to Friday.  Its not gridlock 24/7.  People have to wrap their brains around that fact.  Think about it with an open mind.

I thought about this as I, thankfully, whizzed down the turning lane on Kenaston this morning passed gridlock traffic that was seemingly not moving with all the lights green...and how people can cross, no problem at Kenaston & McGill as well as every other intersection.  I think about it on the few times I head to Transcona and the massive intersection that is Regent & Lag and how people cross without it being carnage.

The "keep it closed" people, with all due respect, I honestly think they've heard the reasons and havent applied critical thought to it.  Even if it was bad traffic (like more than the 2 minutes claimed), its such a short period of time.  Go out to P&M at 9PM, 10PM and there arent traffic issues.  Its a short window.  That might inconvenience some people but its a minority of people.

The few drivers that go through there during rush hour, if they voted against re-opening, I'd disagree but at least understand but if thats all that voted that way, it would pass easily.  A lot of people are worked up that have zero stake whatsoever.  P&M is a concrete jungle of embarrassment.