Portage & Main

[The Unknown Poster]

59 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Lol it's not 2 minutes though... when the streets are gridlocked (during rush hour) it effects everyone waiting down the street at other lights.  I think you are equally confused on how it impacts the times.   It would only be a minute or two *if* every other intersection was clear and that if that set of lights were the only one you would hit.    Nearly every day I sit waiting at a green light because ahead of me it is lined up with people unable to move forward.  The ligth at P & M is the main set of lights which help clear out the backlog on Portage since Main has the extra lane and generally moves quicker.  

A dumb comparison you say... if that were the case then how come in Winter the sky walks are completely packed and the sidewalks are empty?   

 

At least you tried....

Ummm Skywalks are convenient.  Who is arguing that?  Where is the argument to close all skywalks?  it sounds like you're arguing that for the majority of the year, pedestrians wont cross at P&M.  So no issue then right?  Have you changed your vote??

[nate007]

9 hours ago, Brandon said:

And why does our attendance dip for Bomber games as the weather grows colder even if we are riding a hot team going into the play offs.

The intersection with the most powerful and howling winds and them wanting to set up cafes and a place to stop at this same intersection and you don't think weather would make an impact?  Is your first name Nasty?

Nope, I'm not that crazy.  All I'm saying is that we shouldn't base our infrastructure decisions on the lowest common denominator. Hardly anyone drives during a blizzard, but does that mean we shouldn't have roads? There are plenty of other windy intersections that people cross at just fine. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Its a completely different discussion.  if "attendance dips in the fall" is the best argument...well, it should be 99% in favour of re-opening.  But, again, if it will be too cold for anyone to use (which is absurd for people going to work/shopping/destinations), then it should placate the people who think it will lead to a billion pedestrians clogging traffic.

[nate007]

14 hours ago, Jacquie said:

It's been a while since I've walked through that area but I think they came up with the absolute worst route to try to make a point.

If you are going to an opposite corner, it's absolutely true. Some of the lifts or ramps can be avoided if only crossing one side. The ramps are very steep and narrow, and do not meet current building codes. The lifts are frequently broken, making it impossible to cross if you use a wheelchair. Also, many of those private buildings are locked in the evenings and on weekends, which also makes the concourse impossible to use for people with disabilities. 

[The Unknown Poster]

2 minutes ago, nate007 said:

If you are going to an opposite corner, it's absolutely true. Some of the lifts or ramps can be avoided if only crossing one side. The ramps are very steep and narrow, and do not meet current building codes. The lifts are frequently broken, making it impossible to cross if you use a wheelchair. Also, many of those private buildings are locked in the evenings and on weekends, which also makes the concourse impossible to use for people with disabilities. 

People can always wheel themselves a couple of blocks away to cross the street.  The weather isnt an issue over there.  😉

[Brandon]

5 hours ago, nate007 said:

Nope, I'm not that crazy.  All I'm saying is that we shouldn't base our infrastructure decisions on the lowest common denominator. Hardly anyone drives during a blizzard, but does that mean we shouldn't have roads? There are plenty of other windy intersections that people cross at just fine. 

Bowman's original idea is that the intersection will be a meeting place where people will hang out....   and I'm trying to say nobody is going to hang out at that intersection.    Using the Jets coming back or PAN AM games as examples (as he did) was extremely weak since those are once in a lifetime type of events.  

Regardless as said earlier in this thread the people will vote and I will assume this will go away and we can focus on realistic ideas on making downtown alive again.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

3 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Bowman's original idea is that the intersection will be a meeting place where people will hang out....   and I'm trying to say nobody is going to hang out at that intersection.    Using the Jets coming back or PAN AM games as examples (as he did) was extremely weak since those are once in a lifetime type of events.  

Regardless as said earlier in this thread the people will vote and I will assume this will go away and we can focus on realistic ideas on making downtown alive again.

 

Why wouldn't people hang out there?  They wont now, since it's a concrete wasteland.  But there is a lot of unused and poorly used space there.  Once it's renovated and you have street level retail, restaurants, patios etc, people will surely hang out there.  The patios down portage and down main are packed all spring-fall.  In fact, some are used all Winter.

[blue_gold_84]

2 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Why wouldn't people hang out there?  They wont now, since it's a concrete wasteland.  But there is a lot of unused and poorly used space there.  Once it's renovated and you have street level retail, restaurants, patios etc, people will surely hang out there.  The patios down portage and down main are packed all spring-fall.  In fact, some are used all Winter.

A concrete wasteland... LOL

Save the histrionics. People have hang out at P&M as recently as the Jets' playoff run. They hung out there after the Jets bounced the Wild and again after bouncing the Predators.

I'd also love to know where there's going to be space for all this street level retail, restaurants, and patios. Hanging out at windy P&M on a fall evening doesn't sound like a fun time at all.

[Brandon]

8 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Why wouldn't people hang out there?  They wont now, since it's a concrete wasteland.  But there is a lot of unused and poorly used space there.  Once it's renovated and you have street level retail, restaurants, patios etc, people will surely hang out there.  The patios down portage and down main are packed all spring-fall.  In fact, some are used all Winter.

The mock up had a patio like environment.   It would only work if the patio was glassed in to block the wind... the wind is ridiculous at that intersection. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, blue_gold_84 said:

A concrete wasteland... LOL

Save the histrionics. People have hang out at P&M as recently as the Jets' playoff run. They hung out there after the Jets bounced the Wild and again after bouncing the Predators.

I'd also love to know where there's going to be space for all this street level retail, restaurants, and patios. Hanging out at windy P&M on a fall evening doesn't sound like a fun time at all.

Ummmm, google street view it.  or go visit.  Concrete barricades.

I do however, love the fact that the "keep it closed" side is now arguing that no one will hang out there and people already hang out there all the time.  Which is it?!! lol

Of course, P&M is a traditional meeting place for special occasions as we well know, and as you well stated.

Just Google Map it and look.  There is tons of space there.  On the East side especially, on both sides of Hy's around the Richardson Building and in front of the MTS building.  The west side, not so much as those buildings were built much closer to the street but certainly enough for sidewalks.  And I believe Scotia Bank is already renovating their street presence on that side.

Dont get hung up on one thing and make it all about that.  The fact this space could be opened up for patios, street level retail or simply a place to sit and watch the cars go by is not the main point.  Its just a nice added feature and would also help the underground a lot in creating a far better synergy between above and below.

I would have said hanging out on Portage in December didnt sound so great either but there are patios actively open all winter now.  Whats the big deal?

People get hung up on instinctive thoughts without applying critical thinking.  "No one will be outside in the winter".  It's Winnipeg, people are outside all year long.

[The Unknown Poster]

4 minutes ago, Brandon said:

The mock up had a patio like environment.   It would only work if the patio was glassed in to block the wind... the wind is ridiculous at that intersection. 

Sure, there are ways to apply wind breaks.  I dont think that's an insurmountable thing.  I've been at that corner many times in my life and none of those times did I recall it being really nasty (though, ofcourse, I was not hanging out since there is no reason to).  But let's be honest, a cool looking patio with a good atmosphere right at P&M?  If they sufficiently wind block it, that sounds awesome.  As I said, many patios all along those streets and they're packed. 

[Brandon]

Just now, The Unknown Poster said:

Sure, there are ways to apply wind breaks.  I dont think that's an insurmountable thing.  I've been at that corner many times in my life and none of those times did I recall it being really nasty (though, ofcourse, I was not hanging out since there is no reason to).  But let's be honest, a cool looking patio with a good atmosphere right at P&M?  If they sufficiently wind block it, that sounds awesome.  As I said, many patios all along those streets and they're packed. 

Where would you park? 

I drive through that intersection every weekday twice a day... I am forced to roll my windows up most days because the wind is so strong that it blows my parking pass off the mirror and absolutely devastates my beautiful well styled hair !   The wind absolutely is a huge issue. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, Brandon said:

Where would you park? 

I drive through that intersection every weekday twice a day... I am forced to roll my windows up most days because the wind is so strong that it blows my parking pass off the mirror and absolutely devastates my beautiful well styled hair !   The wind absolutely is a huge issue. 

Where would you park?  Downtown?  Really?  There is already restaurants at that location and many offices that people visit.  Tons of parking.

But part of the reason to open it is to create a more walkable area so you dont have to choose to park on the East side because its a pain in the ass to cross over or vice versa.  Last time I was at the Goldeyes, we walked over to Earls and some people continued across to somewhere else.   In a future with an open P&M you could go that way, hit up a resturant or bar at P&M, or cross over and hit up the locations down Portage.  Add in the impending Residential tower at the intersection, residential at TNS, residential at The Forks, a new hotel just behind P&M on the east side (plus that area will continue to be developed), there will be tons of people out and about, freely crossing and mingling.

[blue_gold_84]

14 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Ummmm, google street view it.  or go visit.  Concrete barricades.

I do however, love the fact that the "keep it closed" side is now arguing that no one will hang out there and people already hang out there all the time.  Which is it?!! lol

Of course, P&M is a traditional meeting place for special occasions as we well know, and as you well stated.

Just Google Map it and look.  There is tons of space there.  On the East side especially, on both sides of Hy's around the Richardson Building and in front of the MTS building.  The west side, not so much as those buildings were built much closer to the street but certainly enough for sidewalks.  And I believe Scotia Bank is already renovating their street presence on that side.

Dont get hung up on one thing and make it all about that.  The fact this space could be opened up for patios, street level retail or simply a place to sit and watch the cars go by is not the main point.  Its just a nice added feature and would also help the underground a lot in creating a far better synergy between above and below.

I would have said hanging out on Portage in December didnt sound so great either but there are patios actively open all winter now.  Whats the big deal?

People get hung up on instinctive thoughts without applying critical thinking.  "No one will be outside in the winter".  It's Winnipeg, people are outside all year long.

Huh... I didn't know concrete barricades made something a "wasteland"...

Who said people already hang out there all the time? What renovations are being made on the Scotiabank side to increase its "street presence" there? What active patios are there downtown in the winter?

Nobody's get hung up on anything here. Save perhaps trying to understand why opening up a single intersection, at considerable time and cost, is supposedly so crucial to the well-being of Downtown Winnipeg.

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

Huh... I didn't know concrete barricades made something a "wasteland"...

Who said people already hang out there all the time? What renovations are being made on the Scotiabank side to increase its "street presence" there? What active patios are there downtown in the winter?

Nobody's get hung up on anything here. Save perhaps trying to understand why opening up a single intersection, at considerable time and cost, is supposedly so crucial to the well-being of Downtown Winnipeg.

There is no one thing that creates downtown revitalization.  We've seen it with every project.  MTSC.  Hydro building.  Portage Place.  But its about creating more things and reaching a critical mass.  Now there are more residential developments happening and coming that will create even more people.  There has to be a walkability factor.

You stated many examples when people gather there.

Common sense tells us a TON of people are at P&M every day just by the sheer volume of people that work there but of course, not many hang out at P&M because there is notwhere to go and its not at all inviting.

Its absolutely a concrete wasteland.

I dont know the details about Scotia Bank.  Next time I see it, Ill post.  But all stake holders are committed to spending money to improve the area.  The owners of Winnipeg Square, who you think would want to force people underground are completely on board with this.  They will spend money on Square as well to create a better synergy between above and below, especially as they will have a residential tower right there.

Brown's, for one, kept their patio open during the winter.  I heard of others too but dont recall off the top of my head.  We'll keep an eye out this winter.  As the weather has been more balmy and those big heaters make it comfortable. 

But of course, that's not the point.  People are outside all day long at the Forks.  The point isnt that opening P&M relies on people sitting there in January.  Its just another fact that hinders the argument that there is no use for the intersection "most of the year".  Its just not true.

[Goalie]

Where would you park? Omg... Seriously that is bitchslap worthy. Some of you are against it should follow Brent Bellamy on twitter to learn more. Also read the articles what ppl in Toronto and other major cities think about the barricades... PS: they think its a joke

[Jacquie]

1 hour ago, nate007 said:

If you are going to an opposite corner, it's absolutely true. Some of the lifts or ramps can be avoided if only crossing one side. The ramps are very steep and narrow, and do not meet current building codes. The lifts are frequently broken, making it impossible to cross if you use a wheelchair. Also, many of those private buildings are locked in the evenings and on weekends, which also makes the concourse impossible to use for people with disabilities. 

But his tweet said you had to do all that to just cross the street - not go to opposite corners.

[SpeedFlex27]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Where would you park?  Downtown?  Really?  There is already restaurants at that location and many offices that people visit.  Tons of parking.

But part of the reason to open it is to create a more walkable area so you dont have to choose to park on the East side because its a pain in the ass to cross over or vice versa.  Last time I was at the Goldeyes, we walked over to Earls and some people continued across to somewhere else.   In a future with an open P&M you could go that way, hit up a resturant or bar at P&M, or cross over and hit up the locations down Portage.  Add in the impending Residential tower at the intersection, residential at TNS, residential at The Forks, a new hotel just behind P&M on the east side (plus that area will continue to be developed), there will be tons of people out and about, freely crossing and mingling.

I used to work downtown (one of the first jobs I had after university so a freaking long time ago) in the Grain Exchange Building. I used to bus it to work & got off right in front of the  Richardson Building & then walk a block or so to my work. At lunch, the thought of crossing that godforsaken intersection never crossed my mind even though Eaton's was close by.  It's just so bloody huge. I don't think many people would want to cross it if it was open. 

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I used to work downtown (one of the first jobs I had after university so a freaking long time ago) in the Grain Exchange Building. I used to bus it to work & got off right in front of the  Richardson Building & then walk a block or so to my work. At lunch, the thought of crossing that godforsaken intersection never crossed my mind even though Eaton's was close by.  It's just so bloody huge. I don't think many people would want to cross it if it was open. 

Regent and Lag is a huge intersection.  People cross it.  Ever been to Vegas?  The Strip is very very busy, but you can cross it.  They also have a freeway a few blocks away but the strip is still very busy, all day long.  People who are intimidated by crossing P&M simply won't.  No one will force them too like people are forced underground now or you have to walk blocks away to cross.  Its giving people more options.

[The Unknown Poster]

56 minutes ago, Goalie said:

Where would you park? Omg... Seriously that is bitchslap worthy. Some of you are against it should follow Brent Bellamy on twitter to learn more. Also read the articles what ppl in Toronto and other major cities think about the barricades... PS: they think its a joke

Brent is an ideal person to follow to learn about why its a good idea, learn about why the reasons against it just dont stand up and to see some cool "then & now" pics that he posts.  He's a well respected architect in the city and an eternal optimist. 

I wonder if the reason no one goes to Shaw Park, Bell MTS Place or all the office buildings is because there is no where to park downtown.  With TNS and 300 Main coming, they better build some parkades.  Stat!

[SpeedFlex27]

11 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Regent and Lag is a huge intersection.  People cross it.  Ever been to Vegas?  The Strip is very very busy, but you can cross it.  They also have a freeway a few blocks away but the strip is still very busy, all day long.  People who are intimidated by crossing P&M simply won't.  No one will force them too like people are forced underground now or you have to walk blocks away to cross.  Its giving people more options.

Yeah, been to Vegas. Crossing the street won't kill you but the taxis willing to run you over to get into the hotels on the strip will.  The traffic at Regent & Lagimodiere isn't nearly as busy as P & M.  Traffic at lunch or rush hours is nuts. Guess the voters will decide in October. It's been closed for nearly 40 years. A couple of generations of Winnipeggers have never seen it open. I'll be shocked if things change after the municipal election. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

[Fatty Liver]

47 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

There is no one thing that creates downtown revitalization.  We've seen it with every project.  MTSC.  Hydro building.  Portage Place.  But its about creating more things and reaching a critical mass.  Now there are more residential developments happening and coming that will create even more people.  There has to be a walkability factor.

You stated many examples when people gather there.

Common sense tells us a TON of people are at P&M every day just by the sheer volume of people that work there but of course, not many hang out at P&M because there is notwhere to go and its not at all inviting.

Its absolutely a concrete wasteland.

I dont know the details about Scotia Bank.  Next time I see it, Ill post.  But all stake holders are committed to spending money to improve the area.  The owners of Winnipeg Square, who you think would want to force people underground are completely on board with this.  They will spend money on Square as well to create a better synergy between above and below, especially as they will have a residential tower right there.

Brown's, for one, kept their patio open during the winter.  I heard of others too but dont recall off the top of my head.  We'll keep an eye out this winter.  As the weather has been more balmy and those big heaters make it comfortable. 

But of course, that's not the point.  People are outside all day long at the Forks.  The point isnt that opening P&M relies on people sitting there in January.  Its just another fact that hinders the argument that there is no use for the intersection "most of the year".  Its just not true.

All of the great things you describe are available or can be expanded upon less than a hop away in the Exchange District on either side of Main St. in quieter pockets.  P+M is not a pleasant place to dwell due to the wind shear created by high buildings lining both corridors, this is real and notorious.  Can you imagine sitting down to a meal on a patio next to this intersection?  I really can't.....traffic noise, traffic volume, traffic pollution and dirt whipped into your food and drink by a whirlwind would make this a once in a life-time event for me.  You've been totally sucked in by the "stakeholders" renderings and bullshit if you think this could be morphed into a pleasant environment.  Crossing the street is one thing, hanging out is just dumb.

 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

41 minutes ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

All of the great things you describe are available or can be expanded upon less than a hop away in the Exchange District on either side of Main St. in quieter pockets.  P+M is not a pleasant place to dwell due to the wind shear created by high buildings lining both corridors, this is real and notorious.  Can you imagine sitting down to a meal on a patio next to this intersection?  I really can't.....traffic noise, traffic volume, traffic pollution and dirt whipped into your food and drink by a whirlwind would make this a once in a life-time event for me.  You've been totally sucked in by the "stakeholders" renderings and bullshit if you think this could be morphed into a pleasant environment.  Crossing the street is one thing, hanging out is just dumb.

 

 

I believe you’ve been sucked in by the hysteria of the NIMBYs who hate change. 

Rehardless the vote will be to remain closed. Just as the vote would be to have nothing change in this City if civic politics was governed by vote. It’s ludicrous. 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

 

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Yeah, been to Vegas. Crossing the street won't kill you but the taxis willing to run you over to get into the hotels on the strip will.  The traffic at Regent & Lagimodiere isn't nearly as busy as P & M.  Traffic at lunch or rush hours is nuts. Guess the voters will decide in October. It's been closed for nearly 40 years. A couple of generations of Winnipeggers have never seen it open. I'll be shocked if things change after the municipal election. 

Arguably the biggest intersection on the Strip is the one with the overhead walkways but the Strip for the most part is North South at least from what i remember.

2 hours ago, Brandon said:

The mock up had a patio like environment.   It would only work if the patio was glassed in to block the wind... the wind is ridiculous at that intersection. 

The NE corner is pretty much only area for some food carts.

[SpeedFlex27]

33 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I believe you’ve been sucked in by the hysteria of the NIMBYs who hate change. 

Rehardless the vote will be to remain closed. Just as the vote would be to have nothing change in this City if civic politics was governed by vote. It’s ludicrous. 

You can't be upset if that is what voters want. It's what the people want.