Portage & Main

[Goalie]

9 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

You can't be upset if that is what voters want. It's what the people want.

If im Bowman i say... Ok but its still opening and that's likely what he will do regardless

[SpeedFlex27]

Whoa be it to any politician who does not listen to the people after they spoke.  Especially after a plebiscite which costs a lot of taxpayer money to put on the ballot. If it is a resounding defeat, then it would be political foolishness to ignore the results of the plebiscite. Especially if the congestion gets worse slowing down the commute thru that intersection & it will. People will be angry & blame Bowman. 

[Brandon]

3 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Common sense tells us a TON of people are at P&M every day just by the sheer volume of people that work there but of course, not many hang out at P&M because there is notwhere to go and its not at all inviting.

 

I would gladly avoid P & M  every day but unfortunately the city has no freeways and no way to get from my work back to my home in a timely manner outside of using P & M. 

The concrete jungle / architecture has absolutely nothing to do with people not going to P & M.    The absolute main reason is the safety issue.  My poor wife and her co workers daily have to deal with extremely nasty individuals who harass them for money ,  smokes, drugs,  or sexually harass them.   They go for Tim Hortons runs in numbers because they don't feel safe going alone.    This was exactly the same 10 years ago when I worked near Portage Place I would have to stand guard for the female smokers because it was non stop very aggressive and at times physical harassment.    

Their would be no sensitive pc way to clean up downtown so I can't imagine any way the place would get significantly better.  They would have to immediately ban and charge anyone pan handling (like they do in Ottawa) and have a massive police presence at all hours to make downtown work at all.   

To make downtown work you would need more then just the night crowd bar hopping... you would need families and older people to come downtown also.  Zero chance of that happening until the streets are cleaned up from the riff raff.  

Edited July 23, 2018 by Brandon

[Fatty Liver]

58 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

I believe you’ve been sucked in by the hysteria of the NIMBYs who hate change. 

Rehardless the vote will be to remain closed. Just as the vote would be to have nothing change in this City if civic politics was governed by vote. It’s ludicrous. 

Actually no, I haven't followed the debate but I did work in the city's planning dept. for two years and spent some time working in the Grain Exchange Building so I'm well aware of the issues surrounding that intersection.

[Fatty Liver]

24 minutes ago, Brandon said:

I would gladly avoid P & M  every day but unfortunately the city has no freeways and no way to get from my work back to my home in a timely manner outside of using P & M. 

The concrete jungle / architecture has absolutely nothing to do with people not going to P & M.    The absolute main reason is the safety issue.  My poor wife and her co workers daily have to deal with extremely nasty individuals who harass them for money ,  smokes, drugs,  or sexually harass them.   They go for Tim Hortons runs in numbers because they don't feel safe going alone.    This was exactly the same 10 years ago when I worked near Portage Place I would have to stand guard for the female smokers because it was non stop very aggressive and at times physical harassment.    

Their would be no sensitive pc way to clean up downtown so I can't imagine any way the place would get significantly better.  They would have to immediately ban and charge anyone pan handling (like they do in Ottawa) and have a massive police presence at all hours to make downtown work at all.   

To make downtown work you would need more then just the night crowd bar hopping... you would need families and older people to come downtown also.  Zero chance of that happening until the streets are cleaned up from the riff raff.  

Do we have an issue here, Sonny?

[FrostyWinnipeg]

2 hours ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

Do we have an issue here, Sonny?

Thread derailed in 3, 2, 1.

[nate007]

5 hours ago, Jacquie said:

But his tweet said you had to do all that to just cross the street - not go to opposite corners.

Now you're just being obtuse. If you'd like to prove how easy the concourse is to navigate using a wheelchair, I'll gladly lend you a spare one. Me, I just avoid the area at all costs because I know the area isn't accessible, and plenty of others do as well for a variety of reasons (access, safety, inconvenience, etc.).

[nate007]

5 hours ago, Jacquie said:

 

Edited July 24, 2018 by nate007
Double post

[Brandon Blue&Gold]

Just a minor question in this debate...for those pointing out the crowds from Jets games that have converged at P & M from time to time, won't those crowds go to True North Square when it's up and running instead of going to P & M?

[blue_gold_84]

6 minutes ago, Brandon Blue&Gold said:

Just a minor question in this debate...for those pointing out the crowds from Jets games that have converged at P & M from time to time, won't those crowds go to True North Square when it's up and running instead of going to P & M?

More than likely. I simply mentioned those two occasions this past spring to contest the claim P&M is presently a "concrete wasteland."

I didn't know two of anything counted as many, though. *shrug*

[SpeedFlex27]

57 minutes ago, Brandon Blue&Gold said:

Just a minor question in this debate...for those pointing out the crowds from Jets games that have converged at P & M from time to time, won't those crowds go to True North Square when it's up and running instead of going to P & M?

Old School tradition...

Edited July 24, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

[FrostyWinnipeg]

12 hours ago, Brandon Blue&Gold said:

Just a minor question in this debate...for those pointing out the crowds from Jets games that have converged at P & M from time to time, won't those crowds go to True North Square when it's up and running instead of going to P & M?

P&M will still have it's place but thats a good question, TNS is not a giant place to party.

I would have thought next year they'll close off Hargraves and leave Donald open but then that closes off the CityPlace parkade.

Edited July 24, 2018 by FrostyWinnipeg

[nate007]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

P&M will still have it's place but thats a good question, TNS is not a giant place to party.

I would have thought next year they'll close off Hargraves and leave Donald open but then that closes off the CityPlace parkade.

There are plans to close Carlton if any party gets too big for TNS (it's more open to that side), but the total space available under that plan is still much smaller than the space that was used this spring.

[The Unknown Poster]

 

[The Unknown Poster]

People can take it or leave it but this comes from Bellamy who is the chairman of centreventure

Quote

just to weigh in on this again....I dissected the traffic study with an engineer who knows exactly what all the numbers mean. I was misreading them, thinking the delay was above the existing as a baseline, but it is actually a raw time. There is existing delay. The average time you sit at the light basically.

This is the straight goods:

The average length of time a car spends waiting at the intersection in the morning rush hour is: 20.7 seconds.

The average length of time a car will spend at the intersection in the morning rush hour with pedestrians is: 30.6 seconds

The added delay is 10 seconds.


The average length of time a car spends waiting at the intersection in the morning rush hour is: 19.6 seconds.

The average length of time a car will spend at the intersection in the evening rush hour with pedestrians is: 52.6 seconds

the added delay is 33 seconds.

50% of cars travveling through will see no difference or a slight improvement.

 

 

[Brandon]

First of all I don't trust Bellamy at all he has his own agenda.  

I don't understand how pedestrians crossing in the morning will only add 10 seconds.   That number does not add up,  10 seconds to cross 8 lanes of traffic?  That seems impossible in my opinion.   

Also this completely neglects the impact of traffic if it's grid locked and where you can't cross intersections on green lights because traffic is backed up.  

Looks like fudged numbers to push his agenda.   

[rebusrankin]

I've read accounts and heard personal accounts from people taking the bus back then when it was open, that it could take 15 minutes for a bus to go from Eaton's (MTS Centre now) through the intersection. I call BS on Bellamy and his 10 seconds. Anybody looked into why this is such a pet project for Bellamy?

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

I've read accounts and heard personal accounts from people taking the bus back then when it was open, that it could take 15 minutes for a bus to go from Eaton's (MTS Centre now) through the intersection. I call BS on Bellamy and his 10 seconds. Anybody looked into why this is such a pet project for Bellamy?

I remember that intersection open & there's no way what he says is true. The same here in Calgary with our idiot mayor Naheed Nenshi who along with his progressive colleagues on city council pushed hard for bike lanes saying getting out of the downtown to go south on MacLeod Trail would only take an extra 3 minutes according to a City of Calgary engineering study. I don't have the stats but it's nowhere near as fast as 3 mins. Traffic is slower getting out of the downtown everywhere with bike lanes.  Nenshi just lies to the media.  I suspect bellamy is doing the same thing or looking at a study like Nenshi did & is quoting best case scenario under perfect conditions that happen twice in a year. Not worse case scenario which is almost everyday. 

Edited August 8, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

[nate007]

12 hours ago, Brandon said:

First of all I don't trust Bellamy at all he has his own agenda.  

I don't understand how pedestrians crossing in the morning will only add 10 seconds.   That number does not add up,  10 seconds to cross 8 lanes of traffic?  That seems impossible in my opinion.   

Also this completely neglects the impact of traffic if it's grid locked and where you can't cross intersections on green lights because traffic is backed up.  

Looks like fudged numbers to push his agenda.   

You know, pedestrians cross during red lights when cars aren't going through that portion of the intersection. They aren't closing down the entire intersection to cars while pedestrians cross.

If you check his twitter feed, Bellamy had a traffic engineer explain the numbers from the consultant's report to him.

To me, it all boils down to this: we've learned a lot since the 70s about urban design and the fact that private automobiles aren't the be-all-end-all of transportation. Why would we stick with a design that's clearly been disproved? 

[The Unknown Poster]

12 hours ago, Brandon said:

First of all I don't trust Bellamy at all he has his own agenda.  

I don't understand how pedestrians crossing in the morning will only add 10 seconds.   That number does not add up,  10 seconds to cross 8 lanes of traffic?  That seems impossible in my opinion.   

Also this completely neglects the impact of traffic if it's grid locked and where you can't cross intersections on green lights because traffic is backed up.  

Looks like fudged numbers to push his agenda.   

He didnt do the study from which he got those numbers.  He's an architect.  What's his agenda?  Whats the agenda of the "no" people?

[The Unknown Poster]

11 hours ago, rebusrankin said:

I've read accounts and heard personal accounts from people taking the bus back then when it was open, that it could take 15 minutes for a bus to go from Eaton's (MTS Centre now) through the intersection. I call BS on Bellamy and his 10 seconds. Anybody looked into why this is such a pet project for Bellamy?

Apparently he has a 300 year old family claim to the land.  

I dont know the guy but in the few years I've been aware of him he has always been a progressive person in regards to downtown.  He's a city architect and works with centreventure.  Just because he supports something others dont, doesnt mean he has a secret agenda.

[The Unknown Poster]

8 minutes ago, nate007 said:

You know, pedestrians cross during red lights when cars aren't going through that portion of the intersection. They aren't closing down the entire intersection to cars while pedestrians cross.

If you check his twitter feed, Bellamy had a traffic engineer explain the numbers from the consultant's report to him.

To me, it all boils down to this: we've learned a lot since the 70s about urban design and the fact that private automobiles aren't the be-all-end-all of transportation. Why would we stick with a design that's clearly been disproved? 

The common sense aspect is people have been programmed to think P&M is something it isnt.  Its an intersection.  A large one.  Everything that makes P&M interesting and special are reasons in the "open" column.   This has been a good thread but I've still not seen one good reason to keep them closed.

And I think the majority of Winnipeggers who will vote no wont do it because of a deep understanding of traffic engineering or a concern for safety.  They will say "I have pot holes in my street and I dont want to spend money".  Well, P&M is badly in need of repair.  Its going to be millions of dollars to fix it up regardless of whether the cement bunkers remain.

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, The Unknown Poster said:

He didnt do the study from which he got those numbers.  He's an architect.  What's his agenda?  Whats the agenda of the "no" people?

People have agendas for any random reasons... hell we have inner Morningbigblue agendas (TBURGESS,FLOYD, etc....)

For myself I come down Portage and turn left on Main street....   their is no possible way that 10 seconds would be tacked on only.      I'm assuming he's cherry picking people coming down Main and turning right on Portage at the green arrow light and using best case scenarios  (light traffic,  a system that uses the button to activate the walking sign,  minimal pedestrians attempting to cross etc...). 

I'd assume what really would be set up is a 30 second timer to cross...  people naturally trying to cross at the last second which would tack on a few more seconds.   

I'd listen to Bellamy but it doesn't past the common sense test so at this point it's just b-s to me. 

 

[The Unknown Poster]

7 minutes ago, Brandon said:

People have agendas for any random reasons... hell we have inner Morningbigblue agendas (TBURGESS,FLOYD, etc....)

For myself I come down Portage and turn left on Main street....   their is no possible way that 10 seconds would be tacked on only.      I'm assuming he's cherry picking people coming down Main and turning right on Portage at the green arrow light and using best case scenarios  (light traffic,  a system that uses the button to activate the walking sign,  minimal pedestrians attempting to cross etc...). 

I'd assume what really would be set up is a 30 second timer to cross...  people naturally trying to cross at the last second which would tack on a few more seconds.   

I'd listen to Bellamy but it doesn't past the common sense test so at this point it's just b-s to me. 

 

He had an engineer explain numbers from a consultant report.  Perhaps the consultant and engineer are cherry picking.  But they both know more than we do.  None of the reasons to keep it closed pass the common sense test to be fair.

[nate007]

https://twitter.com/TovChazir/status/1027023390316478464

In the comments on one of his tweets, someone asked Brent specifically about traffic turning from eastbound Portage. The report said that on an average 24 minute afternoon commute, the total additional time for people who turn right would be 2 1/2 minutes, and two minutes for people who turn left. Much lower additional times in the morning commute.

There are also options being looked at like only opening three directions to pedestrians, or even possibly adjusting pedestrian access during rush hour. 

You can see when he engages with someone and points out that the city is trying very hard not to impact traffic, it's possible to change minds.

Also, let's remember that the intersection sees relatively low traffic volumes 22 hours a day. Why keep it entirely closed to pedestrians during those hours, especially if the money is going to be spent repairing the barricades anyway?