Portage & Main

[FrostyWinnipeg]

Come to a compromise, add your crosswalks but throw in yields.

[The Unknown Poster]

It’s interesting how negatively people Viewed the closing of P&M

 

[SpeedFlex27]

4 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

It’s interesting how negatively people Viewed the closing of P&M

 

This ain't your Grandpa's Portage & Main.  

[FrostyWinnipeg]

10 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

This ain't your Grandpa's Portage & Main.  

Grandpa went to Bays/Eatons and a handful of stores downtown or Polo Park. 

[rebusrankin]

Honest question, if they open it up, how does it attract people?

[The Unknown Poster]

4 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Honest question, if they open it up, how does it attract people?

I dont think the idea is it becomes a tourist attraction.  The point isnt to have tons of people pour into the intersection just to see it.

The idea is keep more people at street level and create a connection between downtown and East Portage/Forks.  Its to remove really ugly bunker style cement blockades.  But in doing that, the stake holders that own property there have all been in favour of this and will contribute to making it look better, feel better and be more appealing to the public.  

We're soon to have 600 new residents living there.  There is a new hotel on the east side being built with the feeling the East side is ripe for the next re-development boom.  The Forks are about to build a lot of residential.  So you create the natural gateway to be an inviting, accessible place for people to freely move.

The safety issue is moot.  The annoyance to driver's is rather small and only during small windows.  And the money issue is moot too because if they keep it closed, the city still has to spend millions on repair.  

I think even if someone doesnt really care, once you accept that millions of dollars will be spent at P&M to improve it, repair it, make it more accessible, why not also open it and let it truly be the gathering place it has always purported to be.

I think we in Winnipeg are often self-loathing.  But let's realize that outside of Winnipeg, everyone known P&M.  And yet, when you visit, its a decaying, ugly cement wasteland that forces you down broken, dangerous stairs into piss-stained dangerous corridors.  Its not a place you want to visit.  And if you have to traverse it, its not a place you look forward to doing so.

[Brandon]

It's not pissed soaked or dangerous at all...   if anything I find the area to be way more safer then Portage Place.  Don't make up lies.   

All along Portage Ave outside from Main to U of W is piss soaked (I know from my buddy being a security guard and many times having to ask the locals to not piss or masturbate in bus shacks)   and up and down the other streets at night is very sketchy.  When my wife was a bartender downtown it was almost like a real life night of the living dead with gross people passed out and pissing all around the alleys and garbage bins.   

The cement wasteland stigma is extremely lame since other downtowns are full of high rise buildings and very little green space and have no problems.  Places in Europe have no issues with their downtowns being extremely dense and tight with concrete everywhere.

The intersection is such a small reason for the issues of downtown... city would be wiser to focus on the bigger picture instead of trying to focus on such a small problem.    So many other things they can tackle which would be cheaper that would immediately give a shot in the arm to downtown....

 

[FrostyWinnipeg]

NE corner is the only part of P&M with any room for food carts so thats your attraction at least in Sp, Sum & Fall.

[nate007]

56 minutes ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

NE corner is the only part of P&M with any room for food carts so thats your attraction at least in Sp, Sum & Fall.

Lotsa space in front of the Richardson building too. 

Most people are leery of change, and that's ultimately what's going on here. Neither the best or worst-case scenarios will end up happening. Traffic won't come to a screeching halt, and it's not going to be the second coming of Times Square. 

What will happen when it's opened is that people will be able to walk across the street, period. Just like they do at every other intersection this and every other city, and the world won't end.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, Brandon said:

It's not pissed soaked or dangerous at all...   if anything I find the area to be way more safer then Portage Place.  Don't make up lies.   

All along Portage Ave outside from Main to U of W is piss soaked (I know from my buddy being a security guard and many times having to ask the locals to not piss or masturbate in bus shacks)   and up and down the other streets at night is very sketchy.  When my wife was a bartender downtown it was almost like a real life night of the living dead with gross people passed out and pissing all around the alleys and garbage bins.   

The cement wasteland stigma is extremely lame since other downtowns are full of high rise buildings and very little green space and have no problems.  Places in Europe have no issues with their downtowns being extremely dense and tight with concrete everywhere.

The intersection is such a small reason for the issues of downtown... city would be wiser to focus on the bigger picture instead of trying to focus on such a small problem.    So many other things they can tackle which would be cheaper that would immediately give a shot in the arm to downtown....

 

You're pushing a false narrative and believe me, you dont want to start a debate with me by calling me a liar.

There are accounts all over the place of people going down to the underground and it reaks of urine.  Ofcourse it is.  There a stories all over of women being reluctant or afraid to go down there alone.  Unless you think everyone is lying (yeah, everyone is but you lol).  I mean... you say all along Portage Ave is piss soaked but im lying when I say P&M area is?  So...what, people love the concrete wasteland so much, out of respect they decline to piss there?  Dont attack me personally and then confirm what I said.  It makes you look foolish.

The concrete wasteland is because of the tall concrete barriers.  Its not about the buildings.  And it also refers to the lack of street presence.  Which is understandable because the intent was to drive people underground.

The city is wise to focus on the downtown as a whole which is why P&M is important.  If you're down to the argument that P&M being a closed is a problem but a small one so the city should ignore it, you've run out of points to make.  Regardless of opening or closing, the city cannot leave P&M as is.  It requires major repair.  There are broken concrete areas, missing steps etc.  This isnt a "spend money vs dont spend money".  The City WILL spend money either way.  They have to.

Please list the ways that the City could give a shot in the arm to downtown that in some way would replace investment in opening P&M.

Also, this isnt about downtown development directly.  It IS about that shot in the arm in the sense of development of East Portage, the Forks and connectivity to the rest of Downtown.  One only need to look at the massive private investment in downtown projects to see that downtown isnt dying and doesnt need the city to fix it....what people are in favour of is the city removing barriers that block the connectivity between all multi-million dollar private developments that are fixing downtown and bringing people there.

You might not support it but the people who own the property, including the company that owns WPG Square want it open.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 hour ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

NE corner is the only part of P&M with any room for food carts so thats your attraction at least in Sp, Sum & Fall.

There is actually a lot of room for whatever the owners want to put there.  At the very least something nicer than the current concrete wasteland.  But as Nate said, the key is removing barriers not about an attraction.  And it definitely wont become Times Square until the City changes their silly LED Sign law.  Although I expect continued investment in better and more interesting lighting in that area.

[Brandon]

You are overly exaggerating to push your narrative ...  their is way more pissing and grossness closer to Portage Place then P & M.    Working with many ladies they found the skywalks and portage place area to be much more dangerous then P & M. 

If you want an instant shot in the arm without really any extra costs it would be to remove/ban all panhandlers and folks who are intoxicated in public.   That is the numero uno reason why most people are grossed out and avoid downtown like the plague. 

Next they can perhaps enforce the laws of dealing drugs along Ellice since nothing has changed in the last 10 years of when I used to work near Portage Place where tonnes of drug deals go on during the day near Webb and Ellice. 

Unfortunately those two solutions doesn't give Bowman a shiny monument that he can attach his name to reap all glory and it actually might take some balls to anger some people.

The next (non cheap/far fetched) solution is to buy out Portage Place and remove that food court ASAP and make the building into anything else (U of W expansion?) ....  that place breeds trouble.

Those ideas would drastically improve the downtown experience for the general public.    

Tearing down the barriers aside from making the drive longer will not draw anyone downtown at all... it won't make it a first step either.   They could have the most lovely patios and absolute best restaurants sitting at portage and main and most people still will not want to get harassed or pissed on (literally).   It's a vanity project for Bowman and his goons have suckered some people in who want to be contrarian to the normal public.

[nate007]

6 minutes ago, Brandon said:

The next (non cheap/far fetched) solution is to buy out Portage Place and remove that food court ASAP and make the building into anything else (U of W expansion?) ....  that place breeds trouble.

I don't think there's any way True North lets this happen. They need that food court as a catchment basin to keep the riffraff from migrating south to Cityplace and True North Square. 

[The Unknown Poster]

34 minutes ago, Brandon said:

You are overly exaggerating to push your narrative ...  their is way more pissing and grossness closer to Portage Place then P & M.    Working with many ladies they found the skywalks and portage place area to be much more dangerous then P & M. 

If you want an instant shot in the arm without really any extra costs it would be to remove/ban all panhandlers and folks who are intoxicated in public.   That is the numero uno reason why most people are grossed out and avoid downtown like the plague. 

Next they can perhaps enforce the laws of dealing drugs along Ellice since nothing has changed in the last 10 years of when I used to work near Portage Place where tonnes of drug deals go on during the day near Webb and Ellice. 

Unfortunately those two solutions doesn't give Bowman a shiny monument that he can attach his name to reap all glory and it actually might take some balls to anger some people.

The next (non cheap/far fetched) solution is to buy out Portage Place and remove that food court ASAP and make the building into anything else (U of W expansion?) ....  that place breeds trouble.

Those ideas would drastically improve the downtown experience for the general public.    

Tearing down the barriers aside from making the drive longer will not draw anyone downtown at all... it won't make it a first step either.   They could have the most lovely patios and absolute best restaurants sitting at portage and main and most people still will not want to get harassed or pissed on (literally).   It's a vanity project for Bowman and his goons have suckered some people in who want to be contrarian to the normal public.

You're not providing any alternatives that have anything to do with keeping P&M barricades up.  You're trying to change the discussion to equate agreeing about other areas of need with agreeing with you.  It's the old "Dont spend money on a stadium when my street has potholes" argument.  It simply has nothing to do with P&M.  Worthy things for the city to consider, but nothing at all to do with P&M.

And if any part of your argument against opening is related to money (or how it can better be spent), you cannot possibly suggest the City buying Portage Place and actually be serious.  By the way, the Portage Place experiment to help downtown was tried once already.  

Stop equating the P&M discussion with "drawing people downtown".  You know thats not what its about.  And thats not the discussion here.

If you want to continue to litter your posts with insults (as you always do when you feel you're losing a debate), please just stop.  Dont need threads locked over it.  Just dont participate if you have nothing to say.  Because its far too easy to say you've been suckered in if thats the tact you want to take.   To suggest Centerventure, the owners of all properties at P&M including the owners of WPG Square, a lot of residents (and by the way at more progressive forums the poll numbers are like 95% in favour of opening) are all contrarians who have been suckered by goons is a very lame and insulting point to make that undermines your entire effort.

[The Unknown Poster]

29 minutes ago, nate007 said:

I don't think there's any way True North lets this happen. They need that food court as a catchment basin to keep the riffraff from migrating south to Cityplace and True North Square. 

Imagine wanting to keep P&M closed and calling it a vanity project of the Mayor while, with a straight face suggesting the city buy Portage Place.  Yowza!   Removing some barriers is a referendum, imagine what would happen if a mayor suggested that!

[SpeedFlex27]

My niece lives in Amsterdam & there seems to be very little green space anywhere. The buildings are historic & beautiful dating back some 500 years but the place is all stone & concrete. All of Europe seems to be like that. If I'm wrong then please feel free to correct me as I've never been to Europe. That's just my impression. 

[The Unknown Poster]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

My niece lives in Amsterdam & there seems to be very little green space anywhere. The buildings are historic & beautiful dating back some 500 years but the place is all stone & concrete. All of Europe seems to be like that. If I'm wrong then please feel free to correct me as I've never been to Europe. That's just my impression. 

Ive only been to England (Im a citizen).  Lots of very old buildings ofcourse.  But the countryside is gorgeous.  We stayed with relatives, cant remember where exactly, but it would equate to a small town near the big city and it was surrounded with rolling hills.

You'll always get that.  Although, New York is a good example of a city that carved out some significant green space!

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, FrostyWinnipeg said:

Grandpa went to Bays/Eatons and a handful of stores downtown or Polo Park. 

When I was a kid in the 1960's, my Mom used to take me shopping with her. I absolutely hated it.  We'd hop on the Morley Bus & then transfer onto the Salter Bus on Osborne Street for the ride to Eaton's or The Bay. Sometimes we'd start at Eaton's & go to every. damned. floor... then we'd walk from Eatons' to The Bay & do the same thing.  Very occasionally, we'd bus it over to Polo Park but that meant a day's worth of shopping which was a nightmare to me.  I remember whining the entire time everytime we went. Finally at about age 11 she let me stay home by myself.... Felt like a grown up!!! I sure remember those days walking Portage Avenue on the south side. 

[SpeedFlex27]

Forgot to mention.... I forgot Mom used to buy me my favourite treat sometimes but not always.... fish & chips in the restaurant at Eaton's in the basement where they had a meat department.  If I was behaving....  I can still smell that place in my mind. 

[The Unknown Poster]

I dont recall going to Eatons but the Bay was the go-to place when I was a kid.  Excellent toy department and literally, they had everything.  Every department was fully stocked as they had so much space.  And great Christmas decorations.  My grandparents would take me there shopping regularly and we'd go to the Buffet restaurant they had in there.  I remember it was always dark, like walking into a cave but I loved it.  And they had a huge talking parrot (a real one) outside the restaurant exit that intrigued me.

[Brandon]

 

10 hours ago, The Unknown Poster said:

 

You'll always get that.  Although, New York is a good example of a city that carved out some significant green space!

New York is a great example of how having green space and times square doesn't equate to a bustling lively downtown.   I recommend you read about New York in the 80's and the insane crime rate and how they had to re-do the police force and go extremely tough on crime to clean it up to make it what it is today!    Maybe Mayor Bowman can learn from history! Not that we have nearly the same kind of crime but it wasn't vanity projects that made New York and the Bronx rich bustling places...

I've had family visit different parts of England last year and what's crazy is that parts that used to be nice are now dangerous and no longer safe for tourist to visit.  It's bizarre because they have open walkways with no barricades, beautiful architecture , lots of shops , rapid transit etc....   Unfortunately the bad folks don't seem to really care and decide to throw stones at women with exposed faces,   yell at people based on their skin color and pretty much drive out anyone that is different.  Like in Winnipeg it's not always the setting of the place... it's the clientèle who populate it that determine if the place will thrive.

I've had other family visit Greece ,  Spain, Portugal, France, Italy...  all places that had highly dense areas with no green areas at the hearts of their downtowns that required people to walk really far... yet they had no problems filling up their cafes and patios. 

For myself I recently went to Quebec City for the first time and walked around Old Quebec which during the day was jam packed full of tourists.   What was crazy is that it's so tight and has such limited parking that I was forced to walk many blocks just to park a vehicle and to get to where we wanted to go.   It was super crazy because since it's on a hill and it's really old so they had pretty much zero devices or rampways for handicap folks.  A person in a non motorized wheel chair would either need to have strong arms or would need to take a taxi or get someone to push them.... the nerve of Quebec City for not re doing it to help the elderly and handicap.  It is far easier to navigate winnipeg P and M physically then Old Quebec.

What was realllly crazy was that I went downtown during the day and night and late night at least 10 different times and not once did I see anyone being harassed for money, no sketchy drugged out people, and definitely no gross overly intoxicated aggressive people.   So it's bizarre that a place with no green space,  minimal parking,  very inconvenient for handicap people to get around,  very concrete jungle like....  was thriving.   It's almost like the reason it was busy was because it was safe and clean.    

But I guess the issue is that I like using real world examples to base my opinions while others tend to like to follow theory and dreams based on manipulated numbers by people who have agendas...

 

 

 

[Goalie]

So ppl who dont want to wait an extra 3 minutes a day at an intersection are gonna spend 20 minutes in line to vote no? This is so absurd and stupid its not even funny. Bowman needs to grow a set and just do it already. Screw the Brandons of the world who are afraid of change and apparently think this is about piss. Uninformed fool. Ppl will vote no cuz no project would ever get 50 percent of ppl saying yes and the biz owners will say that's great but it was our decision to close it and its our decision to open it. And ppl will ***** and whine and complain... Just like they did with the forks development.. Mts centre and every other project. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Goalie

[Goalie]

On 2018-08-11 at 2:06 AM, Brandon said:

 

New York is a great example of how having green space and times square doesn't equate to a bustling lively downtown.   I recommend you read about New York in the 80's and the insane crime rate and how they had to re-do the police force and go extremely tough on crime to clean it up to make it what it is today!    Maybe Mayor Bowman can learn from history! Not that we have nearly the same kind of crime but it wasn't vanity projects that made New York and the Bronx rich bustling places...

I've had family visit different parts of England last year and what's crazy is that parts that used to be nice are now dangerous and no longer safe for tourist to visit.  It's bizarre because they have open walkways with no barricades, beautiful architecture , lots of shops , rapid transit etc....   Unfortunately the bad folks don't seem to really care and decide to throw stones at women with exposed faces,   yell at people based on their skin color and pretty much drive out anyone that is different.  Like in Winnipeg it's not always the setting of the place... it's the clientèle who populate it that determine if the place will thrive.

I've had other family visit Greece ,  Spain, Portugal, France, Italy...  all places that had highly dense areas with no green areas at the hearts of their downtowns that required people to walk really far... yet they had no problems filling up their cafes and patios. 

For myself I recently went to Quebec City for the first time and walked around Old Quebec which during the day was jam packed full of tourists.   What was crazy is that it's so tight and has such limited parking that I was forced to walk many blocks just to park a vehicle and to get to where we wanted to go.   It was super crazy because since it's on a hill and it's really old so they had pretty much zero devices or rampways for handicap folks.  A person in a non motorized wheel chair would either need to have strong arms or would need to take a taxi or get someone to push them.... the nerve of Quebec City for not re doing it to help the elderly and handicap.  It is far easier to navigate winnipeg P and M physically then Old Quebec.

What was realllly crazy was that I went downtown during the day and night and late night at least 10 different times and not once did I see anyone being harassed for money, no sketchy drugged out people, and definitely no gross overly intoxicated aggressive people.   So it's bizarre that a place with no green space,  minimal parking,  very inconvenient for handicap people to get around,  very concrete jungle like....  was thriving.   It's almost like the reason it was busy was because it was safe and clean.    

But I guess the issue is that I like using real world examples to base my opinions while others tend to like to follow theory and dreams based on manipulated numbers by people who have agendas...

 

 

 

Lol. You are a joke. Ive been places too. I advise you to open your eyes next time cuz NYC LA Miami Toronto Vancouver Montreal Winnipeg all have sketchy ppl downtown. Youre quite obviously a very discriminating person who is pushing an agenda against lets just call them " indians". 

Its quite obvious cuz to pretend every other city doesn't have the same problems downtown is a joke. 

Your reality that you like to pretend is the real one is about as realistic as king friday and the rest of mr Rogers made up fairy tale land of make believe..

 

Heres some advice tho.. 

 

Just ******* leave winnipeg already and take your **** i know it all cuz i say so bs attitude with you. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by Goalie

[sweep the leg]

Lol, Goalie is the goat at taking mildly contentious arguments and cranking them up to 100.

[The Unknown Poster]

6 hours ago, Goalie said:

So ppl who dont want to wait an extra 3 minutes a day at an intersection are gonna spend 20 minutes in line to vote no? This is so absurd and stupid its not even funny. Bowman needs to grow a set and just do it already. Screw the Brandons of the world who are afraid of change and apparently think this is about piss. Uninformed fool. Ppl will vote no cuz no project would ever get 50 percent of ppl saying yes and the biz owners will say that's great but it was our decision to close it and its our decision to open it. And ppl will ***** and whine and complain... Just like they did with the forks development.. Mts centre and every other project. 

Thats really the crux of the disappointment with the referendum.  Regardless of what side people fall on, if they treated every average city decision (and thats what this is, its not as big as IGF, MTSC, Portage Place, The Forks, BRT etc), nothing would ever pass and people voting "no" on one would eventually favour something and lose.  Thats not how you govern.  We elect a council and Mayor for the purpose of doing the due diligence, having expertise in place and making decisions that might not always be the most popular but are in the best interests of the city.

Asking people who are not educated on the issue to vote is just not prudent.  

We sure wouldnt have the Esplanade Riel as many, many people (probably myself included) were against that little vanity project and its become an iconic image of Winnipeg (and I go there quite often, its great).  No IGF (and ask yourself where the Bombers would be today because CIS would have been condemned).  No MTSC which means no Jets.  Which means no TNS, probably means no Alt/Glasshouse either.  And possibly no new tallest Skyscraper.

People who want to vote no, fine, I get it.  But if you dont like something, dont go.  Dont ruin it for everyone else who understand why its a positive for the city.