This Regime

[Booch]

7 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

You're trying to move the argument away from 'most fans and management are just happy with a playoff game and a playoff win every now and then' because you know it's true.

It's not about the first 3 games. Streveler went 1-2 . Should have started the next game or two, cuz Nichols was obviously not ready yet. Coaching mistake IMO.

I can't answer for most fans/management any more than you can..thats just your opinion..nor do I know what part of what you were quoting of what I said as it didn't show up. I don't think it's true...and pooching a regime that has won 10+ games 3 years running..and made play-offs doing so because of no cups for 28 years is foolish...that 28 years isn't on them...just the last 5 years are..and the first 2 should really be irrelevant as they had to build the organization back up...on all fronts...so 3 straight 10+ winning seasons with playoff appearances...and a west final appearance gives them leeway....at least another year or 2...but Walters should be antsy.

The first 3 games reference was in regards to you saying that we won less games...if we had Nichols healthy to start the season...most likely we win 2..if not 3 of those games..as well as several others in his injury funk....yeah you can say if's and's or but's about a lot of things...but that injury probably cost us 2-3 wins at the least.

28 years yes is a long time...but is spread over about 3-4 different regimes from blow up after blow up..why do you think it has been 28 years now...explicitly for that reason.

Keeping a foundation in place where players want to be..and for coaches they want to play for goes a loooong way...trust me...and we have that here...so to rip it down and try to retain...and or attract new players with the uncertainty and unknown of new coaching/management would put us back years...the lack of loyalty shown to a winning regime 3 years running now would send a pretty negative message to any player...let alone coach considering here...and that is a fact...been there..seen that

CGY if they lose the cup this year will have 3 fails in a row...do you think that management will be blown up there...nope...and truthfully maybe it should as 3 times a failure should indicate they can't get over the hump...but it won't happen because it won't make them any better

[17to85]

25 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Streveler went 1-2 . Should have started the next game or two, cuz Nichols was obviously not ready yet. Coaching mistake IMO.

Didn't we win that game? in fact Nichols went 4-0 when he came back from injury didn't he? Hard to see where you're coming from here. Nichols slump happened in late august/september. 

[17to85]

25 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Streveler went 1-2 . Should have started the next game or two, cuz Nichols was obviously not ready yet. Coaching mistake IMO.

Didn't we win that game? in fact Nichols went 4-0 when he came back from injury didn't he? Hard to see where you're coming from here. Nichols slump happened in late august/september. 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 hour ago, TBURGESS said:

We won less games this year than we did last year, even tho we had a better team on paper.

We didn't get a home playoff game.

We were 4th overall and 3rd in the West.

We played our best games during the stretch run, which hasn't happened for years.

We had one of, if not the, healthiest team going into the play offs. I'd guess, without checking, that we had the least number of man games lost to injury during the season.

We beat a Riders team who were forced to play their backup QB by 5 points in the semi and that backup QB missed 4 open receivers who were behind our defense.

We lost to a Stamps team with 4 injured starting receivers.

The progress has been painfully slow. It took 5 years to get a single playoff win, but that win saved MOS's job. Winnipeg Blue Bombers fans and management are happy with being a middle of the pack team that wins enough games to make it to the playoffs and who sometimes even wins a playoff game.

I was going to take time out and go over your post point by point... but really to what end? 

Viewing the Bombers through your lens must be infuriating and crazy making. I am happy I don't share your view point. I am happy with the Canadian Trifecta- could they improve, absolutely. Have they done everything they could to bring us a cup- nope. Am I happy with this sustainable changing in culture, the buy-in among the players and coaching staff and canadian content- absolutely. 

I don't think anyone celebrating how far we've come are "happy with being a middle of the pack team that wins enough games to make it to the playoffs and who sometimes even wins a playoff game." I think you can be happy with what has been accomplished and set out to be better. 

So, I will focus on the positives and not cherry-pick the issues with the team in isolation thus magnifying them into a distorted debby-downer light. 

 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

55 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

A bunch of excuses then a dumb question, that I'll answer just cuz you asked...

Most folks around here want this regime to get more years because they took us from doormats to competitive. Just look at this thread if you want some examples. They, like you, make excuses for the losses and point to all the coulda shoulda woulda moments in games that caused us to lose and don't want to even hear about the other teams coulda woulda shoulda moments especially when we win. Management knows that if they just make the playoffs and maybe win a playoff game or two, then most fans will be satisfied. Keep everyone. We'll be better next year cuz consistency and patience will eventually get us there. 5 years so far and we've got a playoff win.

How the **** are those excuses? They are REASONS... you can't just cherry pick **** and have no context. You argue everything in a vacuum with no context at all and make **** up as you go along. dafuq? Other teams are trying to get better too right? it's not static.

Where is this from?: "Winnipeg Blue Bombers fans and management are happy with being a middle of the pack team that wins enough games to make it to the playoffs and who sometimes even wins a playoff game. " SHow me a fan who is totally happy with the current status of the team that wants NO improvement. Cuz that is what you are trying to communicate with this line that pulled outta your ass. 

"They, like you, make excuses for the losses and point to all the coulda shoulda woulda moments in games that caused us to lose and don't want to even hear about the other teams coulda woulda shoulda moments especially when we win."

Yet you specifically mention how BB missed ALL those receivers yet fail to point out that we missed three perfect opportunities in the Calgary game that would have changed the game entirely. You do this **** ALL the time. You cherry pick and make and argument without context and call people's questions stupid or dumb or what have you when they are completely legit questions. 

****. I am so done.

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by wanna-b-fanboy

[bearpants]

IMO blowing it up now would set this team back... I wouldn't mind seeing some changes in the coaching ranks whether it be coordinators or positional coaches...

For me, the only way we replace Mike O'Shea would be if we're bringing in Devone Claybrooks... anyone else would be a poor decision...

Kyle Walters needs to do better at the WR position... there's no way to sugar coat that... Calgary loses 3 American starters and still  has an all-star core... Hamilton loses 3 starters and and still uncovers a gem like Braylon Addison...

[Stickem]

I have a big concern and that is this.....We were built to take all the marbles this year....Players peak, get older and players leave....remaining a contender is going to be tough when you look down the road and see a lot will change....IF that change is positive for us...great...if not...it's eventually going to lead to another rebuild sooner rather than later...Will the fans stand for another long stint and drought searching for a winner and a Cup....Could get pretty thin in the stands and something this management has to ponder very seriously

[bb1]

I do not get the MOS love around here, apart from being a coach that players love what has he done? His in game decisions( 4th quarter 5min left in the game he refuses to challenge a ghost PI call?) He won't sit Nichols for 4 or 5 plays just to give Calgary someone who can put pressure on them with his legs,even when Nichols does squat in the game. He refuses to replace assistant coaches till they blow up in his face and he has questionable talent evaluation ( We still have lankford on this team why? And who said Hurl was a good mlb and wasn't the problem last year?) Being loved by your players because you stick with them no matter what? I guess that's a good enough reason around here.

[max power]

I would argue that his loyalty to Richie Hall paid off this year.

I guess we could fire Oshea and Walters, hire promising new people who have never been head coach or GM before, let them learn on the job for a few years and once they have made some mistakes, had some success and probably accumulated enough experience to really be able to keep the team contenders year after year then fire them and start all over again.

[pigseye]

I'm happy with the regime, and tend think it's the players and not the coaches holding them back at this stage.

Defence being the prime example, it didn't take canning Hall to become one of the best defences down the stretch, just the players pulling their heads out of the assess and playing like they could.

Offence though, imo, doesn't have all the players they need, add a couple stud receivers and hybrid speedster for kick returns and we might improve enough. 

[sweep the leg]

13 minutes ago, bb1 said:

I do not get the MOS love around here, apart from being a coach that players love what has he done?

Win 31 games games over the last three seasons.

[jazzsax]

Ask yourselves these questions ----

1. Is management and the coaching staff making an effort to find good players for the various positions and make the upgrades when identified needed? 
2. Are we creating a culture of team first, individual second?
3. Do players WANT to come and play here?
4. Is the team actually exciting to watch?

Some of you would argue about #1, but reality is the answer to all of the above should be yes.

We finally have a decent quarterback, with a decent backup. We aren't ready to poop the bed the minute our starter goes down. We have a defense that is starting to gel. We have an O-LIne that when it's hot is HOT. We have the workings of a good team, and a solid locker room culture to boot.

Remember the culture when Troy Westwood left? And when Matt Sheridan left? Yeah, it was broken and needed a complete teardown and rebuild. Unless you're lucky like the redblacks (who had the good fortunes of being able to pick and build their team from all teams, just like the Knights did in the NHL), you work with what you have and try build off successes. 

Calgary has been successful for a long time... but they've built that culture and instilled it in their locker room, their front office staff, everyone. When you walk around the building and the stadium, spend time in the R&W club, you see and hear things that make you realize it's not just that they have good players --- they focus on team. 

We are on the way. Keep things up the way they are and we will be fighting with Calgary for top spot again next year. A few other plays go our way and the west final is in OUR barn.

Just a matter of time. I've waited 28 years for a cup, I can wait a few more if that's what it means to build a dynasty. 

[TBURGESS]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Didn't we win that game? in fact Nichols went 4-0 when he came back from injury didn't he? Hard to see where you're coming from here. Nichols slump happened in late august/september. 

Yes, we beat the Lions on turnovers and Nichols had a whole 160 yards passing. In fact, the Lions won the next week when Nichols managed 214 yards but gave up 3 Int's.

Booch... Keep pounding on those 28 years like you're making some point. I don't blame all 28 years on this regime. Never have. Never will. I've only blamed this regime for their 5 years and counting.

You can't know that healthy Nichols would have won more games then Streveler. Nichols injury might have cost us a game or two, it might have been a blessing in disguise, and It might not have cost us anything.

The tear it all down won't work argument, when no one is suggesting tearing it all down. No one is even saying that we're not in a better place now than when this regime took over. You can keep a foundation in place even if you change out the coaching staff. I'd argue that some coaches are good at turning poor teams into competitive teams, but sometimes can't get the team over the hump from competitive to the Grey Cup.

The comparison to Calgary, the best team in the league who, won 13 or more games, came in 1st in the division, and made the Grey Cup every year under Dickenson is absolutely ridiculous. FTR: Calgary would have fired MOS after his second year for missing the playoffs twice.

MOS is 45-45 with the Bombers and it's good enough for most around here and for managment. I doubt he'd have lasted 5 years on many teams in the league.

7 minutes ago, jazzsax said:

Ask yourselves these questions ----

1. Is management and the coaching staff making an effort to find good players for the various positions and make the upgrades when identified needed? 
2. Are we creating a culture of team first, individual second?
3. Do players WANT to come and play here?
4. Is the team actually exciting to watch?

Are you trying to argue that effort, culture, players wanting to be here, and an exciting team (Which I'd argue we aren't) is more important than getting to and winning Grey Cups? That's exactly why I say that folks are OK with the team we have.

Edited November 20, 2018 by TBURGESS

[17to85]

15 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Yes, we beat the Lions on turnovers and Nichols had a whole 160 yards passing. In fact, the Lions won the next week when Nichols managed 214 yards but gave up 3 Int's.

That's right it was 4-1 for Nichols not 4-0, but still, I think you are selling him short because let us not forget what Streveler did vs. Hamilton the week before Nichols came back. 146 yards passing.

For all the numbers this offense put up it still didn't put up big passing numbers and I know some of you like to blame the qbs, but it's very clearly two fold: Lapo and lack lustre receivers. Hell our receivers might actually be better than I give them credit for but this offense no matter who was behind centre didn't put up many passing yards in general. Even when Streveler kicked the piss out of the als he was under 300 yards passing.

 

Nichols is a better qb than he was allowed to show this year.  

[do or die]

To win a cup, you have to contend.  To contend every year.....you have to have those foundation building blocks of effort/work ethic, Canadian draft and depth, etc.

In the main, we do have these......after a million years of not having them. 

As far as overall W-L record.....what was Chris Jones's record his first year?   When you take over a tyre fire....there will be serious short term pain.    Have people forgotten the GM's and coaches that came before?  The hopelessness and overall demoralization and ineptitude?

If we win say, one more playoff game, last couple of years - this regime is probably viewed somewhat differently.  

Is there a better management/coaching group out there?  Perhaps.   Would we find it?  Open question.

 

[Noeller]

I've had more fun watching the Bombers the last few years than I've had since the 2001-era team. All I can ask for, as a fan, is entertaining football game in, game out. MOS, for one, has a Job 4 Life with WBBFC, as far as I'm concerned...

[jazzsax]

55 minutes ago, TBURGESS said:

Are you trying to argue that effort, culture, players wanting to be here, and an exciting team (Which I'd argue we aren't) is more important than getting to and winning Grey Cups? That's exactly why I say that folks are OK with the team we have.

No, I'd argue that tearing down alot of those things will set us backwards. You want a cup? Build off of what we have and fix the holes. Obviously our scouting has been a work in progress but we are making inroads compared to 5 years ago. Night and day. 

Some of you just look at the glass as always half empty.

[do or die]

Need more US gurus....

[bb1]

1 hour ago, sweep the leg said:

Win 31 games games over the last three seasons.

.500 record ...one playoff win against Brandon Bridge really ya wanna crow about that? Its ok one more year what difference does it make?

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

2 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

FTR: Calgary would have fired MOS after his second year for missing the playoffs twice.

See here you go again. Making an argument without context. 

 "FTR: Calgary would have fired MOS after his second year for missing the playoffs twice if he had that same Calagry team that Dickenson inherited with a future hall of famer in BLM".   - TBURGESS

Yeah- I could agree with that. 

But no, Dickenson didn't inherit a tire-fire like MOS did, so it is silly to say that Stamps would have fired MOS after two years without any context.

 

Context is your friend, include him.

Edited November 20, 2018 by wanna-b-fanboy

[NorthernSkunk]

Regime gets another year...... I know there will be many player changes with FA,  but hopefully we can keep everyone we want minus one.  That being Nichols,  go after the perceived best FA QB and get him.  Don't worry about the cost or penalties or the SMS stuff (a cup win and nobody would care about the costs for doing it).  Then trade away Nichols for what ever we need after that.   

Just imagine any of the top 3 QB's from last season playing with our group of blue n gold.   Honestly the more I read between those here who obviously know lots about football, after I boil it all down it simply looks like we need a bona fide QB who takes no crap and can take a hit and get up like it never bothered him. 

[sweep the leg]

7 minutes ago, bb1 said:

.500 record ...one playoff win against Brandon Bridge really ya wanna crow about that? Its ok one more year what difference does it make?

I have to correct myself, it's 33 wins over last three seasons. 33-21 in that period, which is the second best record in the league over that span. That seems like a stronger argument for keeping him than not throwing Hurl under the bus does for firing him.

[Fatty Liver]

3 hours ago, TBURGESS said:

A bunch of excuses then a dumb question, that I'll answer just cuz you asked...

Most folks around here want this regime to get more years because they took us from doormats to competitive. Just look at this thread if you want some examples. They, like you, make excuses for the losses and point to all the coulda shoulda woulda moments in games that caused us to lose and don't want to even hear about the other teams coulda woulda shoulda moments especially when we win. Management knows that if they just make the playoffs and maybe win a playoff game or two, then most fans will be satisfied. Keep everyone. We'll be better next year cuz consistency and patience will eventually get us there. 5 years so far and we've got a playoff win.

I dunno, seems appropriate.

[rebusrankin]

I'd like an upgrade in US scouting and at OC but I'd keep Walters and MOS.

[kelownabomberfan]

5 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Walters needs to improve the american scouting a bit and keep drafting well. I am OK with his work. Love O'Shea, hate Lapo. replace Lapo with someone who isn't a coward and I will be happy.

what's Marcel Bellfool doing these days?