The MBB All-Time Blue Bomber team

TrueBlue4ever · December 12, 2018

10 minutes ago, Stats Junkie said:

Here is a little history on the evolution of player positions

In the early days, the wingline (O-Line) consisted of 1 x snapback (centre), 2 x inside wing (Guard), 2 x middle wing (Tackle) & 2 x outside wing (End)

The backfield consisted of 1 x quarterback, 3 x halfback

The final position was a flying wing (FW). Flying indicated that the player possessed the speed necessary to make end runs (similar to a halfback). Wing represented the physical stature needed to fill on the wingline. The combination of size and speed also made the FW the ideal candidate to take the snap from centre on an extension play (similar to rugby).

Mid 1930's - the increased American influence saw the modern terminology for the O-Line come into vogue. The 3 HBs became 2 HBs and a FB (fullback). American coaches were used to operating an 11 man formation and they didn't know how to incorporate the FW. During the 1940's the FW often lined up as a flanker simply as a way of staying out of the way.

By the late 1940's, the FW started to become more involved in the offence as a true flanker (receiver).

1955 - Winnipeg adopted a new backfield alignment.   HB FB FB HB

1964 - Winnipeg became the last team to adopt a more modern look to the offence. The ends were now defined as a tight end (TE) and a split end (SE). The backfield now consisted of HB FB HB FL (flanker)

~1970 - the wingback (precursor to the slotback) was introduced, replacing one of the HB positions. The wingback (WB) was used as a runner and a receiver.

During the 1970's we saw the introduction of the term runningback which eventually replaced the HB.

By the late 1970's there was another change in positions. The SE & FL were renamed wide receivers (WR). The WB & TE became slotbacks. The backfield now consisted of a RB & FB.

Prior to 1950, substitutions were limited in Canadian football. If a player subbed out of the game, he could not return until the following quarter. As a result, players were required to play both ways which meant there were no formal positions for the defensive side of the ball.

A common lineup could include   E T G G T E on the d-line with HB FB C HB in the second row and the QB occupying a safety position. The FW would often lineup based on where the opposing FW was positioned.

1950 - With free substitutions now permitted we saw the introduction of formal defensive positions. Winnipeg ran a 5-4-3 lineup with DE DT MG DT DE on the line, CLB ILB ILB CLB as linebackers & DHB S DHB in the defensive backfield.   MG = middle guard, CLB = corner linebacker.

1965 - Winnipeg shifted to a 4-3-5 defensive alignment. It saw   DE DT DT DE on the line with OLB MLB OLB as linebackers and CB DHB S DHB CB in the defensive backfield.

Winnipeg has also used a 3-4-5 formation (common throughout the Cal Murphy years). It saw DE NT DE on the line & OLB ILB ILB OLB as linebackers.

I am not sure if this clears things up or just muddies the water a little.

This is a fantastic history lesson, and highlights some of the intricacies and difficulties in doing a position by position poll over eras, which is hopefully part of the fun of this exercise. I cannot like this post enough - brilliant job!

WBBFanWest · December 12, 2018

Outstanding read. It's nice to be reminded of a part of the evolution in the game. Thanks so much for doing this.

SpeedFlex27 · December 13, 2018

In the 60's there were a couple of positions on defense that were called Monster & Rover. I assume Monster would be on the DL & Rover would be at linebacker. Anyone know?

TrueBlue4ever · December 13, 2018

9 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

In the 60's there were a couple of positions on defense that were called Monster & Rover. I assume Monster would be on the DL & Rover would be at linebacker. Anyone know?

I honestly don't know, but I always thought "rover" best described what the safety position was meant to be.

TBURGESS · December 13, 2018

On the 'Monster' defense we ran in the high school in the 70's, the monster spot was a LB/DE hybrid. Basically, an 11 man defense with 1 player freed up to go where he was needed.

Stats Junkie · December 13, 2018

I'll admit that I have never heard of the monster position before.

I found this on Yahoo Answers

Quote

It is not usually referred to as the Rover anymore, as defenses have evolved. In past years (several decades ago) a rover was a strong safety in a 5 scheme ( 5 man line) -- which made him a hybrid linebacker/defensive back.

For example, in a 5-2 Monster Defense, the rover was the "monster". You had a 5 man line and 2 LBs, and the rover/strong safety/monster (or "The Wolfman" as he was known in Joe Paterno's defense of the late 60's/early 70's at Penn State) might line up on the offense's strong side, or on the wide side of the field, or in a position to "key" on the offenses top performer and go wherever he went.

In an older version of the 4-3 defense, the Rover was generally a defensive back who would rotate in a zone to come up and support on runing plays and cover the flats on passing plays.

However, in the 4-3, while the rover was a DB, the Monster was the Middle Linebacker.

You can still find a "rover" at the high school & small-college level, but not much any longer in major colleges.

There are a number of variations in terminology - anyone remember the Jack position from 2011?

Tracker · December 13, 2018

1 hour ago, Stats Junkie said:

I'll admit that I have never heard of the monster position before.

I found this on Yahoo Answers

There are a number of variations in terminology - anyone remember the Jack position from 2011?

I don't know Jack.

SPuDS · December 23, 2018

On 2018-12-13 at 10:56 AM, Stats Junkie said:

I'll admit that I have never heard of the monster position before.

I found this on Yahoo Answers

There are a number of variations in terminology - anyone remember the Jack position from 2011?

First thing I thought of as I read this post.

BBRT · December 23, 2018

On 2018-12-12 at 8:06 AM, TrueBlue4ever said:

This is a fantastic history lesson, and highlights some of the intricacies and difficulties in doing a position by position poll over eras, which is hopefully part of the fun of this exercise. I cannot like this post enough - brilliant job!

Great Read - on now to create my Winnipeg Blue Bomber Formation Controversy. Everyone points to Bud Grant as the creator of the Wing-T Formation ( Classic Wing-T Formation (100 / 900, Right / Left) ... This formations uses a halfback (or diveback) in the backfield behind the weak side tackle, and a wingback off the tight end. The fullback is in his normal position, 4 yards back from the ball directly behind the quarterback who is under center.) Bud used it very successfully and ran it all the time. HOWEVER he did not invent it. Bud actually copied it from Forest Evashevski when Forest was the head coach at Iowa. Man what a team he had. Randy Duncan, Willie Fleming, Bobby Jeter, Ray Rauch etc. They just ran over teams. Won the Rose Bowl if I remember correctly. When I was playing ball all the schools ran the Wing-T and some even ran what was called a Single Wing Formation with a "Spinning Back" etc.

SpeedFlex27 · December 23, 2018

4 minutes ago, BBRT said:

Great Read - on now to create my Winnipeg Blue Bomber Formation Controversy. Everyone points to Bud Grant as the creator of the Wing-T Formation ( Classic Wing-T Formation (100 / 900, Right / Left) ... This formations uses a halfback (or diveback) in the backfield behind the weak side tackle, and a wingback off the tight end. The fullback is in his normal position, 4 yards back from the ball directly behind the quarterback who is under center.) Bud used it very successfully and ran it all the time. HOWEVER he did not invent it. Bud actually copied it from Forest Evashevski when Forest was the head coach at Iowa. Man what a team he had. Randy Duncan, Willie Fleming, Bobby Jeter, Ray Rauch etc. They just ran over teams. Won the Rose Bowl if I remember correctly. When I was playing ball all the schools ran the Wing-T and some even ran what was called a Single Wing Formation with a "Spinning Back" etc.

You're thinking Double Wing. The qb was called The Spinner in the Double Wing. He would spin the opposite way from the hole the running back was going thru . The Fullback was called The Sniffer as he was lined up just behind The Spinner's butt. Like a yard behind. As an OC we used the Double Wing in bantam football here in Calgary. The Ol had no splits. It was just push ahead for the Hoggies & the back find the hole. In the Wedge, all the linemen aim for the same DL pushing him back about 15 yards. It was an offense from the 1920's but man, did it work! Only problem was leakage as DL could come around the Wedge & tackle the RB from behind. Only problem for the defense was by the time someone did we already got the first down.

I switched to that offense mid season as we had a qb who could make all the throws but only one receiver who could catch. Our kids dropped so many catchable balls & we left TDs on the field every game. And we were 1-3 going nowhere including being shut out twice in 4 games. After a 15-0 loss to a bantam team we should have defeated, frustrated I went home, stayed up all night & brought in a Double Wing offense. Our OL loved it, our backs loved it, our qb loved it as he got to do a bootleg behind The Wedge & block downfield which he also loved. Our receivers loved it as they didn't have to catch anymore so the pressure was off & all they did was block. We went from a running attack of less than 50 yards a game to almost 300 yards a game. We won some ball games last half of the season & actually made the playoffs. Every defense hated playing us because we were such a physical offense.

Edited December 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

BBRT · December 23, 2018

1 hour ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

You're thinking Double Wing. The qb was called The Spinner in the Double Wing. He would spin the opposite way from the hole the running back was going thru . The Fullback was called The Sniffer as he was lined up just behind The Spinner's butt. Like a yard behind. As an OC we used the Double Wing in bantam football here in Calgary. The Ol had no splits. It was just push ahead for the Hoggies & the back find the hole. In the Wedge, all the linemen aim for the same DL pushing him back about 15 yards. It was an offense from the 1920's but man, did it work! Only problem was leakage as DL could come around the Wedge & tackle the RB from behind. Only problem for the defense was by the time someone did we already got the first down.

I switched to that offense mid season as we had a qb who could make all the throws but only one receiver who could catch. Our kids dropped so many catchable balls & we left TDs on the field every game. And we were 1-3 going nowhere including being shut out twice in 4 games. After a 15-0 loss to a bantam team we should have defeated, frustrated I went home, stayed up all night & brought in a Double Wing offense. Our OL loved it, our backs loved it, our qb loved it as he got to do a bootleg behind The Wedge & block downfield which he also loved. Our receivers loved it as they didn't have to catch anymore so the pressure was off & all they did was block. We went from a running attack of less than 50 yards a game to almost 300 yards a game. We won some ball games last half of the season & actually made the playoffs. Every defense hated playing us because we were such a physical offense.

Actually a number of schools in the late 50's and early 60's ran the Single Wing - I think Ohio State ran it at times. I know that Iowa State ran it and had an All American Half Back (Dave Hopkins I think was his name). But you are right Wing T did exist but Iowa ran the Double Wing as they had two great half backs. I am actually looking for old film on the Single Wing just to refresh my memory.

SpeedFlex27 · December 23, 2018

2 hours ago, BBRT said:

Actually a number of schools in the late 50's and early 60's ran the Single Wing - I think Ohio State ran it at times. I know that Iowa State ran it and had an All American Half Back (Dave Hopkins I think was his name). But you are right Wing T did exist but Iowa ran the Double Wing as they had two great half backs. I am actually looking for old film on the Single Wing just to refresh my memory.

There are HS football teams in the States today that still run Double Wing & rack up hundreds of yards each game rushing. I don't think there are any who run single wing as their base offense. The Wing T is another offense that is great for misdirection. It employs 4 running backs. I think the Bombers ran the Wing T offense. Ken Ploen ran that offense at Iowa & Bud Grant wanted to run it here so he recruited Ploen right out of college. They used it with great success for a decade.

The Double Wing & Wing T are still used today & are dangerous, viable offenses.

Edited December 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

SpeedFlex27 · December 23, 2018

For anyone interested, the different Wing Offenses.

https://wingt-coach.com/rick-darlingtons-single-wing-power-series/

http://www.coachwyatt.com/system.html

https://www.football-tutorials.com/wing-t-offense/

Edited December 23, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

BBRT · December 24, 2018

16 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

There are HS football teams in the States today that still run Double Wing & rack up hundreds of yards each game rushing. I don't think there are any who run single wing as their base offense. The Wing T is another offense that is great for misdirection. It employs 4 running backs. I think the Bombers ran the Wing T offense. Ken Ploen ran that offense at Iowa & Bud Grant wanted to run it here so he recruited Ploen right out of college. They used it with great success for a decade.

The Double Wing & Wing T are still used today & are dangerous, viable offenses.

Man i forgot about Ken Pleon. I probably mentioned this previously but I grew up in Des Moines Iowa and delivered papers for the Des Moines Register. If we sold enough papers (subscriptions etc.) we got free tickets and a bus ride to Iowa City to see the Hawkeyes play. That would be in the late 1957's as we moved to Dallas early 1960's. Ken was the Iowa QB and I can remember him to this day. Even now (I am in my 70's) I still remember those trips to Iowa City and the the Hawkeye teams from those days. He had long retired when I ended up in the Peg in 1981 but I still remember him on CJOB back in those days.

SpeedFlex27 · December 24, 2018

1 hour ago, BBRT said:

Man i forgot about Ken Pleon. I probably mentioned this previously but I grew up in Des Moines Iowa and delivered papers for the Des Moines Register. If we sold enough papers (subscriptions etc.) we got free tickets and a bus ride to Iowa City to see the Hawkeyes play. That would be in the late 1957's as we moved to Dallas early 1960's. Ken was the Iowa QB and I can remember him to this day. Even now (I am in my 70's) I still remember those trips to Iowa City and the the Hawkeye teams from those days. He had long retired when I ended up in the Peg in 1981 but I still remember him on CJOB back in those days.

You got to see him play before the rest of us. He played in the 1957 Rose Bowl & the Grey Cup that year.

Edited December 24, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

Rod Black · December 24, 2018

On 2018-12-07 at 9:38 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

David Shaw deserves to be on that list.

According to Cactus Jack, David Shaw was related to the only Japanese player in the league at that time. Rick Shaw.

Tracker · December 24, 2018

4 hours ago, Rod Black said:

According to Cactus Jack, David Shaw was related to the only Japanese player in the league at that time. Rick Shaw.

To nitpick, rickshaws are Chinese.

SpeedFlex27 · December 24, 2018

5 hours ago, Rod Black said:

According to Cactus Jack, David Shaw was related to the only Japanese player in the league at that time. Rick Shaw.

You mean Chinese. Rick Shaw. As in... RickShaw... or... rickshaw. They weren't related. Rick was white. David was black.

Noeller · December 26, 2018

This thread got massively disgustingly racist in a real hurry...

NorthernSkunk · December 26, 2018

8 minutes ago, Noeller said:

This thread got massively disgustingly racist in a real hurry...

That's a bit of an extreme reaction.

Tracker · December 26, 2018

22 minutes ago, Noeller said:

This thread got massively disgustingly racist in a real hurry...

You want the racism??? You can't handle the racism!!

SpeedFlex27 · December 26, 2018

3 hours ago, Noeller said:

This thread got massively disgustingly racist in a real hurry...

So, I want to say something without degenerating this thread into insults, accusations & name calling. Saying Rick Shaw was white & David Shaw was black & therefore aren't related is somehow considered racist but not fact? Saying the name of Rick Shaw who is Caucasian is also a similar but different word to a rickshaw which is a 1 man cart used to transport people in China but not Japan (to correct an error of reference) is somehow racist but not fact? Other than myself mentioning skin colour between the two Shaws to clarify they are not related thru marriage or birth in the event Jack Wells was being serious , there is no "disgusting racism" here.

For clarification, there is none of this on display in this thread...

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/racism

I have yet to see anyone on this board who believes in or espouses the views of racism.

Edited December 26, 2018 by SpeedFlex27

TrueBlue4ever · December 28, 2018

RESULTS

Coach: Bud Grant

GM: Cal Murphy

QB: Ken Ploen

RB: Leo Lewis

RB: Charles Roberts

C: John Bonk

G: Nick Bastaja

G: David Black

T: Stanley Bryant

T: Chris Walby

SB: Milt Stegall

SB: Joe Poplawski

WR: James Murphy

WR: Jeff Boyd

TE: Ernie Pitts

REC: Terrence Edwards

DT: Doug Brown

DT: Stan Mikawos

DE: Herb Gray

DE: Tony Norman

ILB: Greg Battle

ILB: Barrin Simpson

OLB: Tyrone Jones

OLB: James West

CB: Rod Hill

CB: Less Browne

HB: Juran Bolden

HB: Jonathan Hefney

S: Paul Bennett

PK: Justin Medlock

P: Bob Cameron

PR: Keith Stokes

KR: Albert Johnson III

ST: Wade Miller

Edited May 30, 2019 by TrueBlue4ever

kelownabomberfan · January 8, 2019

On 2018-12-24 at 3:30 PM, Tracker said:

To nitpick, rickshaws are Chinese.

I used this method of transport in Hanoi Vietnam one time.

Atomic · March 31, 2019

I think you can go ahead and put Stegall in at SB, Sellers at FB, and Walby at OT, not much debate required there!

The MBB All-Time Blue Bomber team

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