The MBB All-time Blue Bomber team: Mount Rushmore and the all-time Happy Honkers

[Stats Junkie]

I would remove Bud Korchak & Bud Grant from the list. Both players were better known for their offensive prowess and they played DHB when they were on defence.

It is difficult to determine how effective Jeff Nicklin & Bud Marquardt were on defence. Based on game story information from newspapers, both players were quite involved on offence and special teams.

Note: during the early days of the WIFU there were 3 primary ways to score a single.

1. Deadline kick (ball had to bounce in bounds first)

2. Touch in Goal (conceded single)

3. Rouge (returner was tackled in end zone)

From 1936-1945, the WIFU credited the point on a rouge to the player making the tackle (not the kicker). Nicklin & Marquardt were credited with several rouges during their careers.

 

Here are some Grey Cup statistics for Herb Gray and Cec Luining

Herb Gray

1957 - 3 DT / 1958 - 5 DT, 1 QBS / 1959 - 7 DT, 1 QBS / 1961 - 8 DT, 2 QBS / 1962 - 3 DT

Cec Luining

1957 - 1 DT, 1 QBS, 1 Fum Rec / 1958 - 2 DT, 1 QBS / 1959 - 4 DT / 1961 - 3DT, 1 QBS

 

In 2011, Steve Daniel (CFL) did a comprehensive video review of all Grey Cup games dating back to 1954. During this review, additional statistics were added to the Grey Cup history including tackles, sacks & forced fumbles - based on statistical scoring rules and conventions in place in 2011. Several other stats were changed in the process.

Example: Ty Jones held the record with 4 sacks in one game (1984) until this review. Grover Covington (1986) now holds the record with 5 sacks (up from 3).

I do not agree with changing statistics after the fact especially as many of the these stats were scored correctly based on scoring rules and conventions in place at the time.

[TrueBlue4ever]

2 hours ago, Stats Junkie said:

I would remove Bud Korchak & Bud Grant from the list. Both players were better known for their offensive prowess and they played DHB when they were on defence.

 

It is difficult to determine how effective Jeff Nicklin & Bud Marquardt were on defence. Based on game story information from newspapers, both players were quite involved on offence and special teams.

 

Note: during the early days of the WIFU there were 3 primary ways to score a single.

1. Deadline kick (ball had to bounce in bounds first)

    

2. Touch in Goal (conceded single)

    

3. Rouge (returner was tackled in end zone)

    

From 1936-1945, the WIFU credited the point on a rouge to the player making the tackle (not the kicker). Nicklin & Marquardt were credited with several rouges during their careers.

 

 

 

Here are some Grey Cup statistics for Herb Gray and Cec Luining

 

Herb Gray

 

1957 - 3 DT / 1958 - 5 DT, 1 QBS / 1959 - 7 DT, 1 QBS / 1961 - 8 DT, 2 QBS / 1962 - 3 DT

 

Cec Luining

 

1957 - 1 DT, 1 QBS, 1 Fum Rec / 1958 - 2 DT, 1 QBS / 1959 - 4 DT / 1961 - 3DT, 1 QBS

 

 

 

In 2011, Steve Daniel (CFL) did a comprehensive video review of all Grey Cup games dating back to 1954. During this review, additional statistics were added to the Grey Cup history including tackles, sacks & forced fumbles - based on statistical scoring rules and conventions in place in 2011. Several other stats were changed in the process.

 

Example: Ty Jones held the record with 4 sacks in one game (1984) until this review. Grover Covington (1986) now holds the record with 5 sacks (up from 3).

 

I do not agree with changing statistics after the fact especially as many of the these stats were scored correctly based on scoring rules and conventions in place at the time.

 

Thanks again for digging through the archives for very useful information. Regarding the changing of stats based on current conventions - I know Elfrid Payton always felt gypped (mildly) about his sack totals because he ended up with 154 to Covington's 157, and the rules changed during Payton's career so that if a QB fumbled when he was hit, they would only record the forced fumble but not a sack, like they did previously. Payton lost a few sacks because he was so good at stripping the ball from the QB when he tackled them. If the QBs were better at protecting the ball, or if the rule was consistent either way, Payton would have the all-time record (either he would have registered more sacks if sack and forced fumble could both happen on the same play, or if Covington lost sacks due to forced fumbles on his plays that counted as both).

[wbbfan]

On 2018-12-21 at 8:26 PM, TrueBlue4ever said:

Re: Elfrid Payton position. He started his career as a linebacker, and in his first stint with the Blue Bombers was the team's rookie of the year in 1991 and in 1993 set a club record with 22 sacks (league leader as well) and was named a CFL all-star and east division defensive player of the year at the linebacker position. His second go-round with the club was in 2000, and this time he was a defensive lineman. Although he had much success elsewhere in his career as a d-lineman after switching to that new position (Montreal starting in 1996, Toronto in 2001 and Edmonton in 2002), his greatest contribution to the Bombers came as a linebacker, so I believe he is warranted at being placed in this position, since his achievements for other terms are not to be considered.

A Jack Lber is more of a DE, then a sam is a LBer though. Kind of a tough call. To me though, the difference between counting a guy as a LBer or a book end, is if he plays off an edge or if he scrapes to the ball. And guys who scrape to the ball get a ton of tackles. Book ends, dont. 

For me, the sultan of sack, the swac master, is a book end. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

OK, a few hours left to vote on inside linebackers, but declaring Greg Battle and Barrin Simpson as the winners there. Will post the defensive ends now, and put up a list of potential nominees for defensive (nose) tackles next.

For the defensive ends, pared the list down to 12. Removed Grant and Korchak from the list as per Stats Junkie's recommendations, also pulled Loyd Lewis and Daved Benefield as they had limited time with the Bombers (one strong season each but no longevity) and much longer careers in many other places, and maybe most controversially pulled Phillip Hunt, who had one monster season with the club and led the league in sacks with 17 (but was nothing more than a team nominee for defensive player and other than the sack totals was not a game changer), but only played a season and a half with the club in total and then headed off to the NFL. One season does not an all-timer make, in my view. There will be 12 to choose from.

[SpeedFlex27]

Cec Luining was my second cousin. True story.  Jack Wells nicknamed him "The Mad Milkman From Selkirk". I was too young to see him play but I heard stories. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

Is he a defensive tackle or end?

[SpeedFlex27]

37 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Is he a defensive tackle or end?

He played all positions on the DL as well as Center on the OL. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

Thanks 

[Jpan85]

So Doug Brown and we vote for the second DT.

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Thanks 

I didn't know Cec Luining that well.  My Mother was Ukrainian. I have a feeling there was some kind of family misunderstanding or something that happened before I was born.  Some kind of bad blood there which was never explained to me. The Luinings didn't associate much with my Mother's family.  It was all kind of weird growing up. Am I making sense here?  

Edited January 12, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[Floyd]

6 hours ago, Jpan85 said:

So Doug Brown and we vote for the second DT.

I'd probably vote Mikawos

[NorthernSkunk]

7 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I didn't know Cec Luining that well.  My Mother was Ukrainian. I have a feeling there was some kind of family misunderstanding or something that happened before I was born.  Some kind of bad blood there which was never explained to me. The Luinings didn't associate much with my Mother's family.  It was all kind of weird growing up. Am I making sense here?  

Yep..... over the years some people in my family have started the spelling of their last name "Mc"...and the rest were "Mac"...... nobody ever explained why to me

 

[TrueBlue4ever]

So here is a preliminary list of defensive tackles to consider. The first 4 are older players who played both ways and could easily fall into the “offensive tackle” position, so if you think they are misplaced here, speak up. 

D-I-c-k Huffman, Buddy Tinsley (may be more well known as an o-lineman), Steve Patrick, Frank Rigney (definitely an o-lineman but also was an all-star multiple times as a defensive tackle). 

Also John Helton, Stan Mikawos, Joe Fleming, Doug Brown, Denny Fortney, and Bryant Turner Jr.

List compiled based on all-star nominations. Anyone missed, or anyone who shouldn’t be here?

Edited January 12, 2019 by TrueBlue4ever

[Noeller]

In my mind it's Doug Brown and either Frank Rigney or Buddy Tinsley, but certainly an argument to be made for Mikawos. At any rate, Doug Brown is the greatest DT in CFL history, never mind Bombers... 

[TrueBlue4ever]

1 hour ago, Noeller said:

In my mind it's Doug Brown and either Frank Rigney or Buddy Tinsley, but certainly an argument to be made for Mikawos. At any rate, Doug Brown is the greatest DT in CFL history, never mind Bombers... 

Good call, John Helton could also be in the running for top 2. Even though he did more damage as a Stampeder early in his career, his Bomber legacy is still quite impressive (kind of like Gretzky’s LA Kings legacy - nowhere near his Oiler glory but on its own still remarkable). And I think some experts put Helton above Brown for greatest in CFL history. 9 time CFL all-star, 12 time divisional all-star, 2 time CFL defensive player/lineman of the year. 

Edited January 12, 2019 by TrueBlue4ever

[Noeller]

The number of MOC awards Brown was screwed out of because people voted for sexy stats on Cahoon is staggeringly gross... 

[SpeedFlex27]

3 hours ago, Noeller said:

In my mind it's Doug Brown and either Frank Rigney or Buddy Tinsley, but certainly an argument to be made for Mikawos. At any rate, Doug Brown is the greatest DT in CFL history, never mind Bombers... 

Rigney was an offensive guard. He would always be leading Leo Lewis on sweeps as seen here. I've never seen him nominated as a defensive all star. I checked stats crew & it just shows the years he was an all star. Not saying it isn't true but that would be a new one on me. 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[SpeedFlex27]

Anybody nominate Joe Critchlow? 

[TrueBlue4ever]

5 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Rigney was an offensive guard. He would always be leading Leo Lewis on sweeps as seen here. I've never seen him nominated as a defensive all star. I checked stats crew & it just shows the years he was an all star. Not saying it isn't true but that would be a new one on me. 

 

I must cop to an error on my part. Rigney did play defensive tackle, but his awards WERE for his work as an o-lineman. I confused his bio with D-I-c-k Huffman, who also played both ways, and in fact HE won an all-star nod as both an offensive and defensive player in the same year. Rigney will be pulled from the defensive tackle list. Thanks for auditting me. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

15 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Rigney was an offensive guard. He would always be leading Leo Lewis on sweeps as seen here. I've never seen him nominated as a defensive all star. I checked stats crew & it just shows the years he was an all star. Not saying it isn't true but that would be a new one on me. 

 

 

15 hours ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Anybody nominate Joe Critchlow? 

Yes, you. I’ll add him in. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

So the defensive end voting is done and Tony Norman edges out Michael Gray to join Herb Gray as an all-timer. Gavin Walls also had a strong showing in the most competitive category to date. I will have the bios for defensive tackle up later today and open the polls, but before we dive into the special teams players, we will focus on the head coaches this week for nominations. Obviously Bud Grant and Cal Murphy are on the list, would add Mike Riley and possibly Dave Ritchie, and without looking not sure who coached in the 1930’s and ‘40’s. 

Edited January 19, 2019 by TrueBlue4ever

[Jpan85]

It’s Bud Grant we can just move on to the next category.

[TrueBlue4ever]

57 minutes ago, Jpan85 said:

It’s Bud Grant we can just move on to the next category.

Killjoy. 

[SpeedFlex27]

This should be Bud Grant's award with Cal Murphy as his OC & Mike Riley on D.  In that coaching order. 

[TrueBlue4ever]

Since Jpan85 wants to kill this new poll quickly, and yet because I am a slave to procedure, I will post the General Manager candidates at the same time as the head coach candidates, so that we may possibly have a little debate.

GM nominations to consider would be Joe Ryan, Jim Ausley, Earl Lunsford (whatever you may think of his success, he was the longest tenured), and Cal Murphy. Will also add Reg Threllfall to the head coaching mix.

Will put up both categories on Friday.