The Gender Pay Gap

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

9 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

 

I  said this to show that you can't take an average of everyones salaries because some people (men) tend to pursue higher paying jobs then females. 
If it's the jobs/profession that provides the higher wage rate, then why would women's average (for the SAME PROFESSION) be so much lower?

Dentists themselves charge whatever the F they want.  It's not like men charge more to clients because they are men...  every dentist charges whatever they bloody well want to.   It's not a set fixed rate.   Jesus Christ the naysayers are realllllllly stretching to try to make their point.
No see, that's my point, dentists (or whomever) will charge what the market will bear. Logically, if both genders are charging the same or similar rates (market rate), and both cohorts are working full-time, we would expect average wages segregated by gender to be about the same, or at the very least, not significantly different.

How about you look up the salaries of people working as a cashier at Wal-Mart,  I'm pretty sure both men and women both make a small pitiful salary that is the same between both genders. 
Done, I'm not sure about Wal-Mart cashiers specifically, but there is a cashier cohort in the NHS tables:
Female cashiers working full-time - $22,344
Male cashiers working full-time - $26,396
Although this doesn't seem like much in terms of $ value; it amount to a 15% discrepancy in average pay.

 

Well done. 

 

[Brandon]

47 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

 

Once again please provide specific companies that pay their cashiers a different salary based on gender.    Until you can provide real concrete examples you have completely lost this debate. 

Your above example is absolutely terrible because it provides zero details at all.  Does it take in account that their is way more female cashiers at Wal Mart and maybe because they pay so low it brings the average down?  Does it take in account that more men work at hardware and specialty stores which may bring those averages up? 

A company like Costco which pays a higher then average salary,  how much more do they pay the male cashiers compared to the females?   Same with Wal Mart who is the #1 employer in North America?   How about fast food places,  how much more does McDonalds,  Subway and all the other big chains pay the males more then the females.  

I can tell you 100% as I know people who currently work and have worked at all of those places that they pay the exact same wage for each gender.   No males get any kind of bonus or kickback from having a weiner.  

Seriously eternal optimist...  it's scary that some people can be such sheep and be influenced on anything with absolutely zero weight behind it.  

 

 

[Brandon]

46 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Well done. 

 

How so?  It proved nothing? Can you provide me with specific companies that pay a higher wage for male cashiers over female cashiers for no other reason then because of gender?    I would love to hear about all these companies who do this!   Stats with zero context proves jack squat. 

 

[Eternal optimist]

33 minutes ago, Brandon said:

Once again please provide specific companies that pay their cashiers a different salary based on gender.    Until you can provide real concrete examples you have completely lost this debate. 
Most corporations don't publicly disclose employee compensation records - it's generally just not considered good practice. I did the best with the information I was able to find, you however have provided no substantive or supporting evidence for your current or previous arguments.

Your above example is absolutely terrible because it provides zero details at all.  Does it take in account that their is way more female cashiers at Wal Mart and maybe because they pay so low it brings the average down?  Does it take in account that more men work at hardware and specialty stores which may bring those averages up? 
Okay, what are you basing any of these assumptions on?  What you are referring to is known as standard deviation, which in laymen terms measures the variance within a given sample. Even if females are flocking to Walmart in droves, that's exactly the kind of problem the wage gap is talking about, poor people forced to work jobs for minimum wage, creating a perpetual, inescapable cycle of poverty.

A company like Costco which pays a higher then average salary,  how much more do they pay the male cashiers compared to the females? 
The answer to this is none - you're confusing gender pay discrimination, which is illegal, with the wage gap.

 Same with Wal Mart who is the #1 employer in North America?   
Funny you mention them - Walmart actually has a pending lawsuit against them for gender pay discrimination, so they allegedly do pay their female workers less than the male ones
https://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/walmart-sued-for-gender-pay-discrimination-by-100-women-in-miami-court-11077825

Also, there was a specific study that concluded Wal-Mart female employees are paid less than their male counterparts.
http://www.walmartclass.com/staticdata/reports/r2.pdf

How about fast food places,  how much more does McDonalds, Subway and all the other big chains pay the males more then the females. 
I think the examples above suffice.

I can tell you 100% as I know people who currently work and have worked at all of those places that they pay the exact same wage for each gender.   No males get any kind of bonus or kickback from having a weiner.  Again - your making an assumption (that Wal-Mart, Subway, Costco and McDonald's all conduct fair wage practices) with absolutely no supporting evidence. Wal-Mart (which you said is 100% onside) is currently facing pending litigation for gender wage discrimination.

Seriously Eternal optimist...  it's scary that some people can be such sheep and be influenced on anything with absolutely zero weight behind it. 
Brandon, if you're going to engage in name-calling, you can at least capitalize it properly.
 

 

[Brandon]

Lol a study from 2003...  and a lawsuit which is based on accusations with no real substance.    I'm glad that you cannot truly prove that their is some kind of issue with a wage gap and that we do live (at least in North America) in a place where regardless of gender anyone can make an equal salary based on education and experience.   It's a great place to be! 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

7 hours ago, Brandon said:

Lol a study from 2003...  and a lawsuit which is based on accusations with no real substance.    I'm glad that you cannot truly prove that their is some kind of issue with a wage gap and that we do live (at least in North America) in a place where regardless of gender anyone can make an equal salary based on education and experience.   It's a great place to be! 

Eternal Optimist has provided considerably more facts than you have. He has also taken the time to painstakingly explain the difference of gender pay discrimination, which is illegal, and the wage gap. Just because you refuse to listen to them doesn't make him wrong. 

[Eternal optimist]

7 hours ago, Brandon said:

Lol a study from 2003...  and a lawsuit which is based on accusations with no real substance.    I'm glad that you cannot truly prove that their is some kind of issue with a wage gap and that we do live (at least in North America) in a place where regardless of gender anyone can make an equal salary based on education and experience.   It's a great place to be! 

Alright, I'm done - there's obviously no convincing you, respectfully I think we should just agree to disagree.

[The Unknown Poster]

Im surprised there is such argument against this.  Assuming most of the posters here are male, have they never worked in a professional setting or been in a relationship with a woman who did?  

I think it can be difficult for men to take a long hard look at reality on some of these issues.  I work for a company that is unionized so pay is essentially regulated.  There are other ways to hinder women or to give men a leg up.  For a time, I worked very closely with some pretty key managers and directors and had influence over who got opportunities in our workplace below me.  There was definitely a difference...  I know one female manager who went out to learn how to golf because if you didnt, you missed out on valuable face time with higher-ups...almost all of them men.

Aggressive men were seen as rising stars.  Women?  You can imagine.  And the worst part is, it was sometimes women holding other women back.  

Ofcourse, I have no studies just personal experience.  But Eternal provided studies.  

In terms of entry level positions, its interesting that some studies show a pay disparity there because you'd think it wouldn't.  Are there studies showing advancement...?  Do men advance at greater numbers than women?  Because thats a pay gap too.

Even if the studies are old, its indicative of a real issue.  I think we can agree in many cases, things are changing.  But certainly not all.  And part of the issue is men not realizing it exists.  If the men in positions to change things dont think anything needs to change, what happens?

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

Eternal Optimist has provided considerably more facts than you have. He has also taken the time to painstakingly explain the difference of gender pay discrimination, which is illegal, and the wage gap. Just because you refuse to listen to them doesn't make him wrong. 

but here's a question - if you guys all agree that gender wage discrimination isn't a thing, why is "the gender pay gap" a thing that anyone has to be worried about?  Why is it that female dentists make less than male dentists?  If it's not wage discrimination, but simply a choice by female dentists to work less hours, why do you care?  This is their choice in a free economy.  Is the solution to force male dentists to work less, so that everyone makes less money, but at least they are equal?   This is just absurd.  I started this thread thinking that maybe this whole gender pay gap thing was a completely invented victimhood thing, and I am now convinced that it is exactly that, and nothing more.  No one here has done anything, painstakingly or not, to show that this is an actual issue.  It is an invented "thing", and now unworkable "solutions" are the only answer.  Invent a problem, then go around creating a victim complex.  It's a tried and true formula that seems to work, if your goal is mislead in the name of trying to get votes.

[kelownabomberfan]

54 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

  If the men in positions to change things dont think anything needs to change, what happens?

Change can be a good thing, if it's actually something that needs to be done.  What needs to change?  If women of their own free will choose occupations that pay less, or accept lower pay in exchange for fewer hours, and some "study" then determines that on the whole, women make less money (but this is their personal decision) what do you suppose should change?  Men should be forced to work less?  Why?  Why can't people just have free will?

[Eternal optimist]

Just now, kelownabomberfan said:

but here's a question - if you guys all agree that gender wage discrimination isn't a thing, why is "the gender pay gap" a thing that anyone has to be worried about? 
We haven't agreed that wage discrimination isn't a thing - it's just illegal. The Wal-Mart lawsuit I provided shows it obviously is still a thing.

Why is it that female dentists make less than male dentists?  If it's not wage discrimination, but simply a choice by female dentists to work less hours, why do you care?  This is their choice in a free economy.  Is the solution to force male dentists to work less, so that everyone makes less money, but at least they are equal?
On what basis are you assuming female dentists choose to work less hours than male dentists? This is a preconceived notion and you have provided no evidence to indicate male dentists work more (or less) than female dentists.

  This is just absurd.  I started this thread thinking that maybe this whole gender pay gap thing was a completely invented victimhood thing, and I am now convinced that it is exactly that, and nothing more. No one here has done anything, painstakingly or not, to show that this is an actual issue.  It is an invented "thing", and now unworkable "solutions" are the only answer.  Invent a problem, then go around creating a victim complex.  It's a tried and true formula that seems to work, if your goal is mislead in the name of trying to get votes.
Then why bother attempting to convince you? If you have a preconceived immovable conclusion before the hypothesis is even stated, of course your conclusion will be biased and skewed. I don't know what else to provide you with, as I said to Brandon I think we should respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[The Unknown Poster]

5 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

Change can be a good thing, if it's actually something that needs to be done.  What needs to change?  If women of their own free will choose occupations that pay less, or accept lower pay in exchange for fewer hours, and some "study" then determines that on the whole, women make less money (but this is their personal decision) what do you suppose should change?  Men should be forced to work less?  Why?  Why can't people just have free will?

free will for men to enjoy the perks of manhood at the expense of women?  ah yes.

[kelownabomberfan]

13 minutes ago, The Unknown Poster said:

free will for men to enjoy the perks of manhood at the expense of women?  ah yes.

No, free will for women to have choices they make because that's what they want.  I honestly don't even know hat "enjoy the perks of manhood at the expense of women" even means, and I don't think you do either, but it makes your tummy feel warm typing it, so that's all that matters. You didn't answer my question though - are you in favor of men working less?  Is that your solution?

[kelownabomberfan]

16 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

On what basis are you assuming female dentists choose to work less hours than male dentists? This is a preconceived notion and you have provided no evidence to indicate male dentists work more (or less) than female dentists.

and what basis do you have to say that they work the same hours?  You have a preconceived notion too.  You have no evidence, and I have no evidence.  Other than I find it highly unlikely that customers are deliberately paying female dentists less for the same work.  It just makes no sense.  But if it is happening, lets actually deal with this, as that is definite gender discrimination.  If it's just a result of free will, why DO YOU CARE??

[Eternal optimist]

8 minutes ago, kelownabomberfan said:

and what basis do you have to say that they work the same hours?

What? The information I provided for male/female dentists explicitly states that it only includes dentists that work full-time hours.

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

20 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

What? The information I provided for male/female dentists explicitly states that it only includes dentists that work full-time hours.

DOn't, just don't- there is no reasoning with that. You did excellent in supporting your argument, just leave it at that. Some people just don't understand or really care about facts.

You did well- leave it at that, otherwise you will be touching crazy.

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by wanna-b-fanboy

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

DOn't, just don't- there is no reasoning with that. You did excellent in supporting your argument, just leave it at that. Some people just don't understand or really care about facts.

 

Yup.  There is a clear agenda.  Its worked in other threads.  I hesitated to even post here for that reason.  But to be honest, I liked the points being made by Eternal and some of the discussion.  

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Yup.  There is a clear agenda.  Its worked in other threads.  I hesitated to even post here for that reason.  But to be honest, I liked the points being made by Eternal and some of the discussion.  

I agree. 

EO brought up some solid facts and a very striking argument (hats off to EO). 

The LAwsuit comment was very valid as was the NHS fact. Nice to see someone provide facts instead of feelings and "I do/don't see, therefore it can/can't be true" rhetoric. 

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, Eternal optimist said:

What? The information I provided for male/female dentists explicitly states that it only includes dentists that work full-time hours.

this makes absolutely no sense.  Unless people are purposely paying female dentists less money.  Does that make sense to you?

[kelownabomberfan]

1 hour ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

You did excellent in supporting your argument,

Not really.  In fact, I think the argument has gone a bit backwards.

1 hour ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

You did well- leave it at that, otherwise you will be touching crazy.

 

Crazy defined as "Have different opinion from those who support victimhood complexes, created by fake issues".  Always the same.

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

Just now, kelownabomberfan said:

this makes absolutely no sense.  Unless people are purposely paying female dentists less money.  Does that make sense to you?

I think this makes sense to people who don't dismiss anything that doesn't fit their narrative or people who's rational thought is not hijack by thier personal confirmation bias.

[kelownabomberfan]

here's the Daily Show on female soccer teams in the US wanting to be paid the same as men.  Does women's soccer generate the same amount of money as male soccer? No?  So what's the solution?  Pay the male soccer players less so it's fair and they all don't get paid?  Is that what the solution is?

 

[kelownabomberfan]

2 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

I think this makes sense to people who don't dismiss anything that doesn't fit their narrative or people who's rational thought is not hijack by thier personal confirmation bias.

Exactly.

[The Unknown Poster]

1 minute ago, kelownabomberfan said:

here's the Daily Show on female soccer teams in the US wanting to be paid the same as men.  Does women's soccer generate the same amount of money as male soccer? No?  So what's the solution?  Pay the male soccer players less so it's fair and they all don't get paid?  Is that what the solution is?

 

Why is your one example proof of your perspective but opposing examples arent proof of theirs?

 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 minute ago, The Unknown Poster said:

Why is your one example proof of your perspective but opposing examples arent proof of theirs?

 

Confirmation bias. 

 

Or the inability to think logically.