GDT-Stumps @ Bombers

[Booch]

25 minutes ago, Tracker said:

You not assuming that the coaches have been tailoring their offensive game plans to make the most of Nichols' abilities. 

NO...cause Nichols has shown..repeatedly he can do more than check down....and push the ball vertically...any QB at the pro level can...or should be able to or they have no reason to be a pro

He's shown it this year...had one bad game in Hamilton...and Lapo has now turtled....

[MC]

Why does everyone assume it is Lapolice who wants to run a conservative offense?  He is not the head coach.  Or are you assuming that Lapo is really in charge and tells O'Shea to stay out of his business?

Whichever it is, I am not in any hurry to change.  This is the way the Bombers won their last two Grey Cups.  And it is how Calgary won it in 2018.

The Bombers never won a championship with Dunnigan, Brock or Khari.  

[17to85]

3 minutes ago, MC said:

Why does everyone assume it is Lapolice who wants to run a conservative offense?  He is not the head coach.  Or are you assuming that Lapo is really in charge and tells O'Shea to stay out of his business?

Whichever it is, I am not in any hurry to change.  This is the way the Bombers won their last two Grey Cups.  And it is how Calgary won it in 2018.

The Bombers never won a championship with Dunnigan, Brock or Khari.  

BECAUSE HE HAS DONE IT BEFORE IN THIS VERY CITY COACHING THIA VERY TEAM!!!!!

[Noeller]

lol....as soon as I saw MC's post, I laughed to myself thinking about the aneurysm Dave was going to have...ha ha ha ha.

[Brandon]

I posted the stats of how many 300 and 250 + yard games Nichols had in his career with the Blue and Gold.

It's very clear that pre-injury Nichols pushed the ball down the field while post-injury Nichols has seen a sharp drop off on yards thrown.   

I don't think it's a difference in play calling,  I think it's a QB that's either playing hurt and/or scared. 

[17to85]

4 minutes ago, Brandon said:

 

I don't think it's a difference in play calling,  I think it's a QB that's either playing hurt and/or scared. 

Wrong.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

Wrong.

Thus spake Zarathustra.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Tracker

[66 Chevelle]

4 hours ago, Brandon said:

I posted the stats of how many 300 and 250 + yard games Nichols had in his career with the Blue and Gold.

It's very clear that pre-injury Nichols pushed the ball down the field while post-injury Nichols has seen a sharp drop off on yards thrown.   

I don't think it's a difference in play calling,  I think it's a QB that's either playing hurt and/or scared. 

oh but it is... I talked about it in one of the other threads, but... we've reverted back to the dink and dunk, playing under the chains, Harris becoming the primary targeted receivers, and a crap load of check down passes... gone are the intermediate and deeper routes and passes, or, even involving more play makers in the game plan... and the out put shows... these are the total yards of offense by game/amt:  3/441 yds, 4/406 yds, 5/446 yds, followed by 6/324 yds, 7/344 yds, 8/297 yds...

[wbbfan]

8 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Wrong.

The difference in composure nichols shows in the face of pressure now is undeniable. At his best he did a great all though still conservative job of knowing when to throw it away, when to eat a sack and when to check down. This year we see a LOT of him over re acting to early pressure, having choppy indecisive footwork and tucking the ball while shifting around. 

He is different with out doubt. The question is can he get back to his best level of play, and can he do it here. He doesnt side step pressure any more. Or step up into the pocket and throw with poise. He doesnt roll to a spot and throw to escape pressure. He runs like his life depends on it. You can go back to last year, his previous peak year with us, or back to his early days here and in edm. Then watch this year and compare.

Youd swear its not even the same guy. In the 2017 banjo bowl he busted out a 41 yard run. Split defenders and beat the angle. Now his mobility is some where around the kerwin bell range. You can see it below at 6.56. 

https://www.cfl.ca/2017/09/09/recap-winnipeg-48-saskatchewan-28/

In this clip you can see he keeps his throwing frame open (shoulders and hips) as long as he can, and keep the ball in a ready to throw position as long as possible too. 

3 hours ago, 66 Chevelle said:

oh but it is... I talked about it in one of the other threads, but... we've reverted back to the dink and dunk, playing under the chains, Harris becoming the primary targeted receivers, and a crap load of check down passes... gone are the intermediate and deeper routes and passes, or, even involving more play makers in the game plan... and the out put shows... these are the total yards of offense by game/amt:  3/441 yds, 4/406 yds, 5/446 yds, followed by 6/324 yds, 7/344 yds, 8/297 yds...

The question is has the change come to cover for holes in nichols game right now? 

Edited August 14, 2019 by wbbfan

[Brandon]

8 hours ago, 17to85 said:

Wrong.

Great answer ,  I was really impressed by all the facts and numbers that show that I'm wrong.  

 

[66 Chevelle]

7 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

The question is has the change come to cover for holes in nichols game right now? 

Make no mistake, Nichols hasn't gotten any better or any worse skill wise game to game... however, his performance/success is effected by play calling... and it works both ways... so, in essence Nichols and Lapo are each other's 'ride or die'... the difference is, Nichols can only be as good as the game plan Lapo gives him... Lapo tries to manage Nichols thru play calling instead of managing the game in front of him...

Lapo gets spooked of Nichols abilities and or his weaknesses, because lets be honest here, everyone knows that Nichols' 'pros'; he generally makes good decisions with the ball and has good short range accuracy, 'cons'; decent arm strength, at least good enough to make all of the throws, inconsistent with the deep throws, and not very mobile. This is no secret and everyone has been saying it all the way back to his 2010 NFL draft profile...

this assessment is my own personal opinion but I think it tends to prove itself out... Nichols tends to be a momentum type QB, meaning, if he gets off to a hot start he tends to stay hot, conversely, if he starts out cold/bad it tends to follow him thru the game as well... I think it's pretty obvious that it gets to his head, when hot; quick. decisive, and good throw... when not; gets happy feet, bails on the pocket, makes quick, check down throws...

this next one is one that Nichols freely admits, at least this first part... he's so worried about throwing a pic and turning over the ball... it's really gets to him... to me, it's one of the reasons why we either see him not make a throw, check down all of the time, or throw it 20 yards out of bounds...

Now Lapo knows all of these issues, abilities, lack there of, etc. and comes up with these game plans that we've labeled the 'dink and dunk' because it hits high marks on a lot of traditional stats, like, completion % and low interception numbers...  this type of game plan plays into Nichols' strengths, but what it doesn't do is take into consideration the other play makers strength or yield a lot of production...  So sure, Nichols can go 22/28, 200 yds, 2 TDs, and 0 INTs... and everyone is screaming 'look how good he is!'

but that offense is full of screens, check downs, all of the receivers trying to run routes 'in the box', and running routes that basically have the receivers finding a spot to sit down in the defense to present a target or the slant or out... yeah, we do have 'success' in this offense, because the defense has no issue allowing these type of plays, ones that are in front of them and under the chains... they'll give you that all night long because it generates a lot of 2 and outs, or 3 and outs, few yards allowed, and a bunch of punts...

but in doing so, where basically throwing away receiver attributes that you can't coach; height and speed... in a league where most DBs or 6' or less, we're not exploiting Matthew's 6'5" advantage over a much shorter DB, or, Whitehead's 4.3 speed against DB that are trying to guess which direction he may go and keep up with him... or Darvin's combination of both... or physical build of players like Demski and Woli... every receiver gets dumbed down to Nichols' strengths...

Lapo gets so worked up over this 'ball control' thing and his fear of Nichols accuracy or possible INTs he thinks he's doing everyone a favor with this game plan and can't seem to see that the more aggressive and dynamic game plan that has receivers playing to their strengths instead of Nichols' weaknesses is a lot more productive overall.  Sure maybe Nichols' completion percentage goes down some and he probably throws a few more INTS, but when having receivers running routes at varied depths, using receivers to move defenders we create more space, especially for YAC, larger throwing windows, favorable match up that maximizes receivers opportunities, more even ball distribution among play makers,  and lessens Nichols weaknesses. when you have success in this manner it only opens up the running game that much more and is even more successful than the dink and dunk... in the end you can have results like 300+ yards passing, 80+ yards of rushing. same or more TDs, many a lower percentage rate of completions and a few more INTs...

in the end he may not string together 19 in a row, but, we'll have a more balanced attack and include more play makers and don't get bogged down into these 2 and outs with a ton of check downs... Nichols won't be a better passer, but, the better game plan doesn't exploit his weaknesses either, so he appears to be better than he actually is... we become a whole lots less predictable and a lot harder to actually stop... you can still win the TOP battle at least break even on turn overs but be able to move the ball when you need to and win more games...

[66 Chevelle]

made a post in error... sorry all... 

Edited August 14, 2019 by 66 Chevelle

[wbbfan]

Just now, 66 Chevelle said:

Make no mistake, Nichols hasn't gotten any better or any worse skill wise game to game... however, his performance/success is effected by play calling... and it works both ways... so, in essence Nichols and Lapo are each other's 'ride or die'... the difference is, Nichols can only be as good as the game plan Lapo gives him... Lapo tries to manage Nichols thru play calling instead of managing the game in front of him...

Lapo gets spooked of Nichols abilities and or his weaknesses, because lets be honest here, everyone knows that Nichols' 'pros'; he generally makes good decisions with the ball and has good short range accuracy, 'cons'; decent arm strength, at least good enough to make all of the throws, inconsistent with the deep throws, and not very mobile. This is no secret and everyone has been saying it all the way back to his 2010 NFL draft profile...

this assessment is my own personal opinion but I think it tends to prove itself out... Nichols tends to be a momentum type QB, meaning, if he gets off to a hot start he tends to stay hot, conversely, if he starts out cold/bad it tends to follow him thru the game as well... I think it's pretty obvious that it gets to his head, when hot; quick. decisive, and good throw... when not; gets happy feet, bails on the pocket, makes quick, check down throws...

this next one is one that Nichols freely admits, at least this first part... he's so worried about throwing a pic and turning over the ball... it's really gets to him... to me, it's one of the reasons why we either see him not make a throw, check down all of the time, or throw it 20 yards out of bounds...

Now Lapo knows all of these issues, abilities, lack there of, etc. and comes up with these game plans that we've labeled the 'dink and dunk' because it hits high marks on a lot of traditional stats, like, completion % and low interception numbers...  this type of game plan plays into Nichols' strengths, but what it doesn't do is take into consideration the other play makers strength or yield a lot of production...  So sure, Nichols can go 22/28, 200 yds, 2 TDs, and 0 INTs... and everyone is screaming 'look how good he is!'

but that offense is full of screens, check downs, all of the receivers trying to run routes 'in the box', and running routes that basically have the receivers finding a spot to sit down in the defense to present a target or the slant or out... yeah, we do have 'success' in this offense, because the defense has no issue allowing these type of plays, ones that are in front of them and under the chains... they'll give you that all night long because it generates a lot of 2 and outs, or 3 and outs, few yards allowed, and a bunch of punts...

but in doing so, where basically throwing away receiver attributes that you can't coach; height and speed... in a league where most DBs or 6' or less, we're not exploiting Matthew's 6'5" advantage over a much shorter DB, or, Whitehead's 4.3 speed against DB that are trying to guess which direction he may go and keep up with him... or Darvin's combination of both... or physical build of players like Demski and Woli... every receiver gets dumbed down to Nichols' strengths...

Lapo gets so worked up over this 'ball control' thing and his fear of Nichols accuracy or possible INTs he thinks he's doing everyone a favor with this game plan and can't seem to see that the more aggressive and dynamic game plan that has receivers playing to their strengths instead of Nichols' weaknesses is a lot more productive overall.  Sure maybe Nichols' completion percentage goes down some and he probably throws a few more INTS, but when having receivers running routes at varied depths, using receivers to move defenders we create more space, especially for YAC, larger throwing windows, favorable match up that maximizes receivers opportunities, more even ball distribution among play makers,  and lessens Nichols weaknesses. when you have success in this manner it only opens up the running game that much more and is even more successful than the dink and dunk... in the end you can have results like 300+ yards passing, 80+ yards of rushing. same or more TDs, many a lower percentage rate of completions and a few more INTs...

in the end he may not string together 19 in a row, but, we'll have a more balanced attack and include more play makers and don't get bogged down into these 2 and outs with a ton of check downs... Nichols won't be a better passer, but, the better game plan doesn't exploit his weaknesses either, so he appears to be better than he actually is... we become a whole lots less predictable and a lot harder to actually stop... you can still win the TOP battle at least break even on turn overs but be able to move the ball when you need to and win more games...

Skill wise no certainly not. However he has dropped off from last year, which was a drop off from the previous year. The biggest issues are mental, and mobility. This compounds previous issues like winding up on deeper throws at times, not having great ball placement etc. 

Like you said, that works both ways. He suffers from poor play call, but also struggles to execute any thing in the face of a rush. If he cant side step pressure, or step up into the pocket calling deeper shots isnt going to help him. 

The problem with the streakiness, is that he tends to still disappear when hot for decent chunks of the game. Hot nichols is a short term thing. Its no major surprise that his best season and stretch came when our OL was soo overpowered he would go whole games with out being touched.

I think no matter the QB plop will always coach a west coast inspired offense thats safe and conservative and relies on wrinkles and gadgets or exceptional plays to score big. 

We dont tailor enough plays to the strengths of our play makers I agree. I find that all too common and crazy. How can we not bring in good screen plays, hitch and goes, and slants to some one like lucky and iso fades to mathews. Same with more of the streveler package, especially working in more RPO, and run option plays. They could tear the stadium down with some shovel pass plays between harris and streveler. 

Its a catch 22. If you open up deeper routes when your qb is getting roasted by any pressure on short passes hes just going to get it worse. If you dont he continues to do more of the same and you hope to ride a hot streak for a short time. Some one has to break the stalemate and I dont like chances of either plop or nichols blinking first. 

 

[66 Chevelle]

But it doesn't always take longer to make those deeper throws, not when you start throwing to a spot as opposed to having to wait for your receiver to find that spot to sit down in...

during that 3 game span we saw a lot more effective Nichols and offense... Nichols was actually throwing spots, more space and larger throwing windows allowed receivers to make adjustments to balls if need be and over all we generated a lot of explosive plays and where we see those throwing TDs come from...

 

[wbbfan]

5 minutes ago, 66 Chevelle said:

But it doesn't always take longer to make those deeper throws, not when you start throwing to a spot as opposed to having to wait for your receiver to find that spot to sit down in...

during that 3 game span we saw a lot more effective Nichols and offense... Nichols was actually throwing spots, more space and larger throwing windows allowed receivers to make adjustments to balls if need be and over all we generated a lot of explosive plays and where we see those throwing TDs come from...

 

It does though. Even when you throw to a spot, which you dont throw blind deep passes like that because you have to see how coverage sets up. You throw to a spot on short and intermediate routes. When you throw to a spot before the dbs have turned their hips to run with the target they break to the same location for the ball. A play where you throw deeper to a spot and let your wr run under it is a tool you have to use very rarely. Like in a hitch and go or screen and go. You have to set that up and once you throw it deep the defense will adjust. The bite on the pump freezes the dbs so the wr can keep running and get enough of a cushion the dbs cant just run down the pass. Just like sayles pick in the endzone in last weeks game. 

 

We also saw a ton of huge catch and runs from great athletes. He was playing better, but still worse then last year and markedly worse then his best. Thats how it works though, when teams see you struggle with some thing, they use it in their own prep and exploit it. 

[66 Chevelle]

10 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

It does though. Even when you throw to a spot, which you dont throw blind deep passes like that because you have to see how coverage sets up. You throw to a spot on short and intermediate routes. When you throw to a spot before the dbs have turned their hips to run with the target they break to the same location for the ball. A play where you throw deeper to a spot and let your wr run under it is a tool you have to use very rarely. Like in a hitch and go or screen and go. You have to set that up and once you throw it deep the defense will adjust. The bite on the pump freezes the dbs so the wr can keep running and get enough of a cushion the dbs cant just run down the pass. Just like sayles pick in the endzone in last weeks game. 

 

We also saw a ton of huge catch and runs from great athletes. He was playing better, but still worse then last year and markedly worse then his best. Thats how it works though, when teams see you struggle with some thing, they use it in their own prep and exploit it. 

not necessarily, here's a link to a couple of good example of such... Winnipeg/Ottawa 

here is a pass to Demski in the first seconds of this highlight where you see Nichols getting rid of the ball qucikly and then a few more thru the middle and then another TD pass to Darvin about 3/4 of the way through... but watch it all  because is shows us playing at all different levels of the field and having success...

[Noeller]

 

[Nash00]

24 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 

Not surprising. He was going bat-**** crazy at points during the game to the point of shoving his own teammates when they tried to calm him down.

[Brandon]

41 minutes ago, Noeller said:

 

[JCon]

Just now, Brandon said:

[Mark F]

19 minutes ago, Nash00 said:

Not surprising. He was going bat-**** crazy at points during the game to the point of shoving his own teammates when they tried to calm him down.

which lineman was on him the most?

[Sard]

36 minutes ago, Mark F said:

which lineman was on him the most?

If I remember correctly it was the left side of the line, so Bryant if the depth chart is accurate.

[Mark H.]

1 hour ago, Sard said:

If I remember correctly it was the left side of the line, so Bryant if the depth chart is accurate.

Absolutely.  I re-watched the game on youtube today - Bryant gave him plenty of extra shots and was jawing at him constantly.

Hopefully the younger OL playing beside him are taking note. 

[Noeller]

4 minutes ago, Mark H. said:

Absolutely.  I re-watched the game on youtube today - Bryant gave him plenty of extra shots and was jawing at him constantly.

Hopefully the younger OL playing beside him are taking note. 

Desjarlais right next to him doesn't need a whole lot of teaching in that regard. He is a HUGE man with a nasty attitude...

[wbbfan]

16 hours ago, 66 Chevelle said:

not necessarily, here's a link to a couple of good example of such... Winnipeg/Ottawa 

here is a pass to Demski in the first seconds of this highlight where you see Nichols getting rid of the ball qucikly and then a few more thru the middle and then another TD pass to Darvin about 3/4 of the way through... but watch it all  because is shows us playing at all different levels of the field and having success...

That clip doesnt show the snap but still shows him on a 7 step drop taking 4-5 seconds minimum for the wr to get deep. Its not a throw to a spot, thats just a deep pass. With out pressure. 4-5 second + pockets / 7 step drop is a slow developing play for the pocket.