Plop vs Nichols

[B-F-F-C]

14 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

So... you're candidates are:

1. Buck Pierce: A guy who's never been an offensive coordinator.

2. Ryan Dinwiddie: A coordinator that sounds like nothing more than a puppet with the current staff in Calgary. Dickenson calls the plays, and Dinwiddie's formal title is Quarterbacks Coach. When Dinwiddie was in full control in Montreal, in 2013 - 2015, they never posted a winning season... and oddly enough that was in large part due to their putrid offense.

Dave Dickenson: 1 year as a running backs coach, 1 year as a receivers coach and then year 3 he was promoted to OC. 

Jason Maas: pretty good OC/crappy head coach.  3 years as a QB coach and then year 4 he was the OC in Ottawa. 

Buck pierce: 2 years as a running back coach, currently in year 4 as a QB coach. 

 

[SpeedFlex27]

10 minutes ago, B-F-F-C said:

Dave Dickenson: 1 year as a running backs coach, 1 year as a receivers coach and then year 3 he was promoted to OC. 

Jason Maas: pretty good OC/crappy head coach.  3 years as a QB coach and then year 4 he was the OC in Ottawa. 

Buck pierce: 2 years as a running back coach, currently in year 4 as a QB coach. 

 

Time for LaPo to go & let Pierce step up. Only problem I see is he'll stick with LaPo's system so will things change that much?

[Eternal optimist]

5 minutes ago, B-F-F-C said:

Dave Dickenson: 1 year as a running backs coach, 1 year as a receivers coach and then year 3 he was promoted to OC.
Jason Maas: pretty good OC/crappy head coach.  3 years as a QB coach and then year 4 he was the OC in Ottawa.
Buck pierce: 2 years as a running back coach, currently in year 4 as a QB coach.

My issue isn't with the suggestions, it's the fact that regardless of how good (or bad) a coordinator will eventually be, the first few years there is always some learning and growing pains:

Dickenson's first year as OC was 2011, when they finished 3rd in the West (11-7), this was a regression from 13-5 the previous year.
Maas's first year (2015), the Redblacks went 2-16.

Although we'll eventually have to move on from LaPo, in the middle of the year isn't the time to do it, and certainly not with the team sitting at 6-2. If we were say, even 3-5 I could understand the logic, but at 6-2 you're really risking blowing up a perfectly good season. Not to mention Winnipeg fans are fickle to begin with, could you imagine the backlash if they promoted Pierce to OC, then went 0-2? That's how you end up with the cyclical firings we were notorious for most of the last decade, which would then make it more difficult to attract coaching talent, and the problem perpetuates itself.

 

[SpeedFlex27]

6 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

My issue isn't with the suggestions, it's the fact that regardless of how good (or bad) a coordinator will eventually be, the first few years there is always some learning and growing pains:

Dickenson's first year as OC was 2011, when they finished 3rd in the West (11-7), this was a regression from 13-5 the previous year.
Maas's first year (2015), the Redblacks went 2-16.

Although we'll eventually have to move on from LaPo, in the middle of the year isn't the time to do it, and certainly not with the team sitting at 6-2. If we were say, even 3-5 I could understand the logic, but at 6-2 you're really risking blowing up a perfectly good season. Not to mention Winnipeg fans are fickle to begin with, could you imagine the backlash if they promoted Pierce to OC, then went 0-2? That's how you end up with the cyclical firings we were notorious for most of the last decade, which would then make it more difficult to attract coaching talent, and the problem perpetuates itself.

 

I don't think anyone is calling for LaPo to be replaced mid season by Pierce or anyone else. Where did you get that idea?

[Eternal optimist]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

I don't think anyone is calling for LaPo to be replaced mid season by Pierce or anyone else. Where did you get that idea?

...just the tone from the forum. Also, this thread?

[Brandon]

Nobody is getting changed mid season,   it all comes down to what happens come play off time.    If they win the big game then myself and a whole lot of people will look foolish about complaining about the QB and coaches and all will be great.    If they get bounced then something will need to change. 

[JuranBoldenRules]

42 minutes ago, Eternal optimist said:

My issue isn't with the suggestions, it's the fact that regardless of how good (or bad) a coordinator will eventually be, the first few years there is always some learning and growing pains:

Dickenson's first year as OC was 2011, when they finished 3rd in the West (11-7), this was a regression from 13-5 the previous year.
Maas's first year (2015), the Redblacks went 2-16.

Although we'll eventually have to move on from LaPo, in the middle of the year isn't the time to do it, and certainly not with the team sitting at 6-2. If we were say, even 3-5 I could understand the logic, but at 6-2 you're really risking blowing up a perfectly good season. Not to mention Winnipeg fans are fickle to begin with, could you imagine the backlash if they promoted Pierce to OC, then went 0-2? That's how you end up with the cyclical firings we were notorious for most of the last decade, which would then make it more difficult to attract coaching talent, and the problem perpetuates itself.

 

So you're attributing those team records to those coaches OC ability?

This post is at the same time way overthought and way oversimplified.  Almost like a scene from Billy Madison.

[Pete Catan's Ghost]

2 hours ago, Throw Long Bannatyne said:

This site has gone loony lately, it could use a good cleansing.

 

Well, this looks oddly familiar.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Pete Catan's Ghost

[rebusrankin]

Actually Ottawa was 12-6 and lost a close Grey Cup game to Edmonton in 2015 during Maas's only year as their OC. Calgary was 11-7 in 2011 aka Dickenson's first year as OC but they were tied for 1st and had a pretty good offense.

As for an earlier post on our total touchdowns, we're scored 4 in the past 3 games.

[Eternal optimist]

7 minutes ago, rebusrankin said:

Actually Ottawa was 12-6 and lost a close Grey Cup game to Edmonton in 2015 during Maas's only year as their OC. Calgary was 11-7 in 2011 aka Dickenson's first year as OC but they were tied for 1st and had a pretty good offense.

As for an earlier post on our total touchdowns, we're scored 4 in the past 3 games.

 

23 minutes ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

So you're attributing those team records to those coaches OC ability?

This post is at the same time way overthought and way oversimplified.  Almost like a scene from Billy Madison.

Ugh... got my years wrong. It's not often I mix things like that up, but I'll admit when I'm at fault here.. sorry for the misinformation.

[Fatty Liver]

26 minutes ago, Pete Catan's Ghost said:

Well, this looks oddly familiar.

Well of course, you're a purging agent, cast a damn spell.

[B-F-F-C]

1 hour ago, Eternal optimist said:

My issue isn't with the suggestions, it's the fact that regardless of how good (or bad) a coordinator will eventually be, the first few years there is always some learning and growing pains:

Dickenson's first year as OC was 2011, when they finished 3rd in the West (11-7), this was a regression from 13-5 the previous year.
Maas's first year (2015), the Redblacks went 2-16.

Although we'll eventually have to move on from LaPo, in the middle of the year isn't the time to do it, and certainly not with the team sitting at 6-2. If we were say, even 3-5 I could understand the logic, but at 6-2 you're really risking blowing up a perfectly good season. Not to mention Winnipeg fans are fickle to begin with, could you imagine the backlash if they promoted Pierce to OC, then went 0-2? That's how you end up with the cyclical firings we were notorious for most of the last decade, which would then make it more difficult to attract coaching talent, and the problem perpetuates itself.

 

You have it wrong. I’m not advocating getting rid of Lapo or Nichols. That’s why I said I didn’t vote. But the poster asked about potential candidates for OC. 

Thats why I responded. Not because I want Lapo fired mid season. 

[17to85]

5 hours ago, Blueandgold said:

Sure, we could've said the same thing about the 7-1 2011 Bombers as well.

What happened to that team when the turnovers started to dry up? You can't rely on returning kicks for touchdowns to win and the offense has to be able to score the ball. 

Hey remind me who was running the offense that season....

[66 Chevelle]

20 hours ago, Noeller said:

But I think the greater point, made well by TLB, is not "almost nobody has more 2 and outs" but "nobody has more wins"....

doesn't change the fact that he made this statement:

"Give credit where it's due, it may be a boring conservative strategy but it does move the ball effectively and consistently which produces a majority of wins, even if some fans don't like it."

regardless of wins, if as a team you have the second most 2 and outs you have to wonder if that is the case, which in turn begged the question...  not to mention, our inability to actually move the ball effectively and consistently is directly responsible for 1 of our 2 losses... so, if that statement were actually true, we'd be 7-1 right now, 2 games up in the West, instead of 6-2 with 3 other teams only 1 loss behind and breathing down our necks...

[66 Chevelle]

23 hours ago, Eternal optimist said:

Well, actually OTT is tied with us for 2-and-outs. Although our 2-and-outs (44) are above league average (35.6), we also still lead the league in the following offensive categories, despite the bad road trip to Ontario:

- Offensive touchdowns (23)
- Overall touchdowns (25)
- Passing touchdowns (15)
- Rushing yards (982) - This is particularly good, considering how much more frequently SSK attempts to run the ball (SSK has 187 rush attempts, we have only 151 but still manage to lead the league in rushing yards).

We are also 2nd only to EDM in passing efficiency (EDM - 104.5, WPG 102.6)

I'd be more concerned with the high number of two-and-outs if we didn't maintain the ball offensively for so long, the two other teams with more two-and-outs (OTT, TOR) are also dead last in average time of possession (25:38 and 26:46), whereas the bombers (32:34) are much closer to the top average (MTL - 33:16).

This is indicative of OTT and TOR having to change their strategy to more pass-happy because they play from behind more often. This in turn is riskier, and thus results in more two-and-outs.

Changing your starting QB or offensive coordinator when you're 6-2 is nothing short of ridiculous. 

I'm pretty sure that the question was posed as a hypothetical and regardless of what you chose in the poll it resulted in somebody being gone...

I'd be willing to bet cash money that had it been presented differently, as in something that the team should actually pursue at this point and time in the season, that the responses would be completely different...

but if you want to play the 'stat' game I can give you all kinds of numbers that would show you that our offense is hardly the juggernaut that you are trying to paint them to be, if that's what you want to do...

for instance, over the last 3 games, games that resulted in a win-loss record of 1-2, the offense has only scored on average 9 pts a game...

in that same span, the lone game we won, our offense scored exactly ZERO pts... a situation that is hardly sustainable if we plan on winning more than we lose...

also, in that same game, the offense was only able to move the ball into the red zone TWICE the entire game... and when gifted with a turnover on their 18 yard line we had to settle for a field goal...

that the backbone of our offense, Harris, is on track to have 340 touches by year's end, if he is actually able to endure that type of workload injury free or not worn to a frazzle...

that if Harris does go down his loss of production would account for 38% of our total offensive yards and 33% of our touchdowns...

that your TOP numbers are actually misleading and not a fair representation of what could be expected routinely because in 3 of our games that we won handily, BC and the 2 Ottawa games, we had a 110:47 to 69:13 TOP advantage... that in fact, in one of our wins we actually lose in the TOP battle, Edmonton where we had on 23:40 TOP to their 36:20 TOP... yet another game, our last lost to Toronto, we lost that TOP battle as well, to the then winless Argos, 31:06 to 28:54...

also, Ottawa does NOT have more 2 and outs than we do, we are tied, at least we were prior to the last game and last published stats by the league... not to mention that your "argument" as to why they would have more 2 and outs than the Bombers actually makes us look worse as you say that have more because they play with more risk... basically saying that if they didn't suck and weren't constantly playing from behind we'd have more than every team in the league...

that 4 of our 6 wins are against teams with a combined record of 5-18... one of our losses is against a previously winless 1-6 team, our other loss was against a back up QB that probably few had heard of before and was held to only 9 pts in 3 and 1/2 quarters...

that the first 5 games of the year we scored 168 pt, or 33.8 pts per game as opposed to our opponent scoring 80 pts, or 16 pts per game... over the last 3 games we have scored 68 pts, or 22.6 pts per game as opposed to our opponent who has scored 75 pts (only 5 pts less than allowed in the previous 5 games) or 25 pts. per game... in summary, we are scoring 11.2 pts per less game while our opponents are scoring 9 pts more per game and on average 2.4 pts less than our opponent per game...

as you can see, we are trending in the wrong direction... I could go on and on...

Edited August 11, 2019 by 66 Chevelle

[JuranBoldenRules]

EDIT: BC staying in Hamilton, 2 practices fly out Wednesday.

BC is traveling  3 times zones west, off-day, then 2 practices and traveling 2 time zones east.

Our team is waiting at home, 3 full practices and zero travel.

This is a week they all better shine, coaches and players.

Edited August 11, 2019 by JuranBoldenRules

[Bigblue204]

All these stats, all these words. 6-2 with room to improve in early August is all you need to know.

[JCon]

2 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

EDIT: BC staying in Hamilton, 2 practices fly out Wednesday.

BC is traveling  3 times zones west, off-day, then 2 practices and traveling 2 time zones east.

Our team is waiting at home, 3 full practices and zero travel.

This is a week they all better shine, coaches and players.

Send them to Guelph. Did wonders for the Bombers. 

[Mark H.]

12 hours ago, JCon said:

Send them to Guelph. Did wonders for the Bombers. 

I recommend an evening in Montreal - with plenty of booze for the train ride. 

[Brandon]

1 hour ago, Mark H. said:

I recommend an evening in Montreal - with plenty of booze for the train ride. 

Charles Roberts can be their party planner

[wbbfan]

On 2019-08-10 at 4:02 PM, SpeedFlex27 said:

Time for LaPo to go & let Pierce step up. Only problem I see is he'll stick with LaPo's system so will things change that much?

That would bring the best immediate improvement imo. Even just let pierce call the plays. Plop is a good player coach and good xs n os guy. I

 

On 2019-08-11 at 10:02 AM, Bigblue204 said:

All these stats, all these words. 6-2 with room to improve in early August is all you need to know.

With out offensive touchdowns and the ability to get first downs in the last 5 minutes of the game its no better then smoke and mirrors. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by wbbfan

[Mark H.]

Some of the stats quoted above do not compute.  Apparently we have 23 offensive TDs & 25 overall TDs.

We had 2 TDs from special teams last game and the D has at least one pick 6 - what gives? 

[Nickthesizz]

On 2019-08-09 at 5:42 PM, NorthernSkunk said:

This seems to be an odd poll for a team that is currently  6-2 and first in their division.   I will not be voting.

It's so weird because when Nichols was actually playing well for the first couple games of the season (lead the league in efficiency and passer rating) you were the first one who wanted him gone, now that the offence has all but dried up you've hanged your stance. Sounds like you're just a contrarian who is looking for arguments.

Edited August 13, 2019 by Nickthesizz

[NorthernSkunk]

9 minutes ago, Nickthesizz said:

It's so weird because when Nichols was actually playing well for the first couple games of the season (lead the league in efficiency and passer rating) you were the first one who wanted him gone, now that the offence has all but dried up you've hanged your stance. Sounds like you're just a contrarian who is looking for arguments.

What I say is.... I don't think matt has what it's going to take to get us a cup if it comes down to him , especially late in a game.  And I don't so much want him gone as wanting to see a bit more of any back up QB we have. 

[Nickthesizz]

Just now, NorthernSkunk said:

What I say is.... I don't think matt has what it's going to take to get us a cup if it comes down to him , especially late in a game.  And I don't so much want him gone as wanting to see a bit more of any back up QB we have. 

While I agree with you, I don't think Streveler will be a passer in this league. Liked what I saw from Mcguire in the preseason, hopefully he turns out.