World Politics

[JCon]

3 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

First of all I've been paying taxes since 1971 when I got my fist job in HS at aresturant washing dishes in Winnipeg so I have an idea how they wor. Second, I read that post on Norway. Taxes on gasoline powered vehicles to pay for EV infrastructure. basically punishing drivers to get them to buy EV's. Every indusrty has subsidies. I already agreed with JCon about that. My point is O & G wa saround & functioning powering society long before any subsidies came their way. Unlike the Elon Musk's of the world relying on them to finance his Tesla vehicles long before they were viable. His company wouldn't exiist without government subsidies. But that's okay. Every industry has subsidies so Musk is entitled for Tesla to get them as well. 

That's still unaffordable to a lot of people. They need to be similar prices to gasoline powered cars like a Toyota Camry or Ford Fusion. Then they'll have something. I've no doubt that it'll get there someday but not right now. 

The gap between combustion and electric is not that dramatic any longer, is my point. Cost of ownership also plays an important role in the lifetime costs of EV vs combustion. 

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/vehicle-prices-in-canada-hit-all-time-high-with-average-topping-40-000-1.5267393 Vehicle prices in Canada have hit an all-time high with the average vehicle selling for more than $40,000.

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, Bigblue204 said:

This is 100% wrong. There is no truth tovthis at all. The ONLY reason oil and gas was made a reliable source of energy is BECAUSE of subsidies. 

You know, I did some quick research into subsidies of O & G going back to 1916 & the US government did subsidize O & G starting that year with tax breaks such as a "Depletion Allowance" which allowed oil companies to write off 27% of their revenues. So therefore, I withdraw my comments about O & G companies not getting subsidies at the turn of the century when they were getting established. I was wrong & withdraw what I said.... I still don't like the way things are being done today but I was wrong on subsidies. My apologies. 

Well, gents. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong. I have to go but this discussion was interesting. This Old Dawg learned something new today when it came to subsidies.  

[blue_gold_84]

6 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

You know, I did some quick research into subsidies of O & G going back to 1916 & the US government did subsidize O & G starting that year with tax breaks such as a "Depletion Allowance" which allowed oil companies to write off 27% of their revenues. So therefore, I withdraw my comments about O & G companies not getting subsidies at the turn of the century when they were getting established. I was wrong & withdraw what I said.... I still don't like the way things are being done today but I was wrong on subsidies. My apologies. 

Well, gents. I don't mind admitting when I'm wrong. I have to go but this discussion was interesting. This Old Dawg learned something new today when it came to subsidies.  

[Bigblue204]

Oil and gas companies are far and away the Masters of propaganda. No one compares even throughout history. They have it mastered.

They've been  able to get out of most messes they create, including cleaning up oil spills they say they'll clean up. Which is another form of subsidies...we know their products are literally destroying the human species nevermind basically all other species on the planet...don't get me started on the ocean.

We talk about war time propaganda and it's issues...or misinformation online and how it's impacted us. But never oil and gas propaganda....its so well done its often extremely hard to pin point. 

So I not surprised people don't know just how much oil and gas cost the public tax payers to set up their infrastructure, but to also continue working like they have all the while bringing in record profits.

"Hey I'm destroying your environment, charging you more and more for transportation and heating and food, while my bank account grows exponentially. im literally destroying your species, ruining the biggest source of life on the planet, contributing to wars and the cause of them etc etc....but don't you let "renewables" trick you into believing they're better!! It's a lie!! You can't survive without oil, don't let them get a foot up with governments help, that's communism!! Are you a nazi? No this is a FREE country!! Now go fill up your tank, the prices are going up tomorrow!...which is your governments fault fyi! ******* Trudeau!! You should tell your government to remove taxes at the pump if you want cheaper fuel...we PROMISE not to raise the price to bring it back up to the cost it was WITH taxes!" 

 

[SpeedFlex27]

2 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Oil and gas companies are far and away the Masters of propaganda. No one compares even throughout history. They have it mastered.

They've been  able to get out of most messes they create, including cleaning up oil spills they say they'll clean up. Which is another form of subsidies...we know their products are literally destroying the human species nevermind basically all other species on the planet...don't get me started on the ocean.

We talk about war time propaganda and it's issues...or misinformation online and how it's impacted us. But never oil and gas propaganda....its so well done its often extremely hard to pin point. 

So I not surprised people don't know just how much oil and gas cost the public tax payers to set up their infrastructure, but to also continue working like they have all the while bringing in record profits.

"Hey I'm destroying your environment, charging you more and more for transportation and heating and food, while my bank account grows exponentially. im literally destroying your species, ruining the biggest source of life on the planet, contributing to wars and the cause of them etc etc....but don't you let "renewables" trick you into believing they're better!! It's a lie!! You can't survive without oil, don't let them get a foot up with governments help, that's communism!! Are you a nazi? No this is a FREE country!! Now go fill up your tank, the prices are going up tomorrow!...which is your governments fault fyi! ******* Trudeau!! You should tell your government to remove taxes at the pump if you want cheaper fuel...we PROMISE not to raise the price to bring it back up to the cost it was WITH taxes!" 

 

I'd say cigarette companies were right up there, as well. How about Winston having cartoon characters Fred Flintstone & Barney Rubble hawking cigarettes at the end of that cartoon so little kids can see it. This is insidious.

 

 

[Bigblue204]

Cigarette propaganda took some lessons from oil and gas, but they still can't hold a candle to them.

[Tracker]

1 hour ago, Bigblue204 said:

Yes and if/when they do....oil and gas will STILL increase the price lol. I 100% guarantee it. So instead of the citizens receiving that money (taxes) it'll go to off shore bank accounts. Sounds like it will help! 

Again, oil and gas is RIDICULOUSLY good at making people angry at their governments (or other entities) for the issues oil and gas start.

at the start of the pandemic, when unfortunately a lot of information was coming out, about declining fertility in humans...and evidence was clear that a major factor was oil and plastic. Coincidentally the vaccine was released and almost immediately theories about it's impact on human fertility started...that was not by accident. Oil and gas saw an opportunity to get the spot light off them once again and took it. This is just one example of how easily they can change a narrative because of their grip on society. 

The environmental impact on fertility may be part of it, but I suspect that the economic distress (stagnated wages but rising living costs) and the attendant loss of confidence in the future have a lot more to do with it. Stress diminishes libido and sperm motility and production. The American middle class is being squeezed out of existence while the rich get richer. This is unsustainable but the upper class is oblivious and focused only on immediate gain.

[17to85]

48 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

we know their products are literally destroying the human species

Ummmm no... I would argue that their products are a large reason we see such a large population of humans on the planet. 

We as a species have thrived because of the cheap, reliable, easily transportable energy that fossil fuels have given us. 

Climate change will **** up lots of other species but humans are a resilient bunch. We as a species will get through just fine. 

27 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Cigarette propaganda took some lessons from oil and gas, but they still can't hold a candle to them.

I think you are backwards there too. Oil and gas hired the cigarette propagandists to work for them.

[Wideleft]

Just now, 17to85 said:

Ummmm no... I would argue that their products are a large reason we see such a large population of humans on the planet. 

We as a species have thrived because of the cheap, reliable, easily transportable energy that fossil fuels have given us. 

Climate change will **** up lots of other species but humans are a resilient bunch. We as a species will get through just fine. 

Millions have died in oil-related wars and millions more are being displaced due to oil wars and climate migration.

To suggest that humans can "get through" without other species is the height of hubris.  

[17to85]

Just now, Wideleft said:

Millions have died in oil-related wars and millions more are being displaced due to oil wars and climate migration.

To suggest that humans can "get through" without other species is the height of hubris.  

Oh no? You think we can't adapt as a species? When the population is billions and still climbing fast millions isn't that significant. The world is always in Flux. The most adaptable species survive and we just happen to be pretty good at adapting. Especially when we possess the brains and opposable thumbs to modify the environment to suit our needs. 

[Noeller]

Man, as soon as they make an affordable EV truck that compares to my current half ton (in terms of capability), I am done. Take the keys to my truck, and let's go. We've got plenty of charging stations and more to come....let's go. I absolutely can't wait to ditch this gas guzzler. 

[17to85]

11 minutes ago, Noeller said:

Man, as soon as they make an affordable EV truck that compares to my current half ton (in terms of capability), I am done. Take the keys to my truck, and let's go. We've got plenty of charging stations and more to come....let's go. I absolutely can't wait to ditch this gas guzzler. 

The biggest issues for me with EVs is the charging time. Who wants to sit and wait half an hour to recharge whe ln filling up a gas tank is super quick? 

For commuter vehicles sure absolutely but I still forsee a lot of issues if you want to drive any distance. Also not super up to date on current technologies but I wonder about battery life in extreme cold.

[Bigblue204]

38 minutes ago, Tracker said:

The environmental impact on fertility may be part of it, but I suspect that the economic distress (stagnated wages but rising living costs) and the attendant loss of confidence in the future have a lot more to do with it. Stress diminishes libido and sperm motility and production. The American middle class is being squeezed out of existence while the rich get richer. This is unsustainable but the upper class is oblivious and focused only on immediate gain.

I'm not talking about people choosing to not have babies...I'm talking about studying the fertility of humans regardless of there wanting children. There have been studies going on since the 70's that can directly link a societies use of oil to the reduction of male fertility. Yes all of the factors you listed play a role. But with the amount of oil we use and consume(like literally consume into our bodies) it is drastically dropping (specifically) the male fertility rate at about 1% per year...and has been since the 70s. This unfortunately means the average male today, is 50% less fertile than their grandfather. What this means for the future is not good (Obviously). And it very likely means having kids at all with be for the rich (fertility treatments are super expensive!).

[Bigblue204]

40 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Ummmm no... I would argue that their products are a large reason we see such a large population of humans on the planet. 

We as a species have thrived because of the cheap, reliable, easily transportable energy that fossil fuels have given us. 

Climate change will **** up lots of other species but humans are a resilient bunch. We as a species will get through just fine. 

I think you are backwards there too. Oil and gas hired the cigarette propagandists to work for them.

Oil and gas has helped us, no doubt. But the science is remarkably clear. The way we consume oil into our environment and our bodies is going to lead to the loss of fertility. Two things can be true at the same time. Oil helped us, it is now harming us.

They hired them because they were good. But not on the same level as oil and gas. Which is why cigarettes are losing money every year, while oil and gas continue to up hold unjust laws that squash competition and help lead the way when it comes to harming our environment. While they continue to take in extreme profits and convince us that we couldn't possibly survive without them.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Bigblue204

[blue_gold_84]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

The biggest issues for me with EVs is the charging time. Who wants to sit and wait half an hour to recharge whe ln filling up a gas tank is super quick? 

For commuter vehicles sure absolutely but I still forsee a lot of issues if you want to drive any distance. Also not super up to date on current technologies but I wonder about battery life in extreme cold.

EV technology is still relatively new. It's constantly improving, though. (https://www.motortrend.com/features/tech-trends-battery-fuel-cell-motors/)

[Bigblue204]

26 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Oh no? You think we can't adapt as a species? When the population is billions and still climbing fast millions isn't that significant. The world is always in Flux. The most adaptable species survive and we just happen to be pretty good at adapting. Especially when we possess the brains and opposable thumbs to modify the environment to suit our needs. 

What I meant about "literally destroying humans." Is our fertility. Not our health as it stands now. If our fertility rates continue to drop as they are, climate change or not won't matter to the survival of humans. And we know oil is negatively impacting our fertility rates at a surprising pace.

[Bigblue204]

14 minutes ago, blue_gold_84 said:

EV technology is still relatively new. It's constantly improving, though. (https://www.motortrend.com/features/tech-trends-battery-fuel-cell-motors/)

Yeah tech evolves so quickly now people don't even know. The original Iphone only came out 10 years ago. And look at how much it has changed since then. 10 years ago our world was VERY different than it is today. What does it look like in the next 10? We used to say that but it would be 100 years....than 50...then 20...soon it will be yearly.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Bigblue204

[Noeller]

10 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

Yeah tech evolves so quickly now people don't even know. The original Iphone only came out 10 years ago. And look at how much it has changed since then. 10 years ago our world was VERY different than it is today. What does it look like in the next 10? We used to say that but it would be 100 years....than 50...then 20...soon it will be yearly.

when you stop and think about the change in mobile tech over the last 10 years, it is staggering how fast things changed...

[JCon]

1 minute ago, Noeller said:

when you stop and think about the change in mobile tech over the last 10 years, it is staggering how fast things changed...

The iPhone is not even 15 years old yet!!

[Noeller]

I vividly remember the day 17to85 and I bought Blackberry's (blackberries?) for the first time in 2009....and I thought it was just the craziest technology. BBMs!! ZOMG! 

[Bigblue204]

4 minutes ago, Noeller said:

I vividly remember the day 17to85 and I bought Blackberry's (blackberries?) for the first time in 2009....and I thought it was just the craziest technology. BBMs!! ZOMG! 

buttons are the future!! No one wants touch screen keypads!!!

[WildPath]

O&G get subsidies beyond the financial benefits they continually receive. Oil and gas corporations never have to pay the true costs of their products, they never pay for the environmental harm that the rest of the population is "taxed" with. They never pay for the healthcare costs that their products cause the rest of the population to be taxed with.  They often even get away with the more obvious costs of environmental cleanup when there is a spill or when their wells hit end of life.

Beyond the financial subsidies O&G get, they also never have paid the true costs associated with their product. These are passed onto taxpayers and often the most vulnerable and financially poor pay these costs (nationally and globally) at much higher rates than the rich, kind of like the opposite of a progressive tax.

[17to85]

Honestly, the best answer is regulation on companies which is sorely lacking. Pretty much every business everywhere gets a subsidy at some point. Just make oil and gas companies fulfill their obligations to environmental safety.

50 minutes ago, Bigblue204 said:

What I meant about "literally destroying humans." Is our fertility. Not our health as it stands now. If our fertility rates continue to drop as they are, climate change or not won't matter to the survival of humans. And we know oil is negatively impacting our fertility rates at a surprising pace.

Now how much of this is attributed to other factors as well? It wasn't that long ago lead was taken out of things, and I would hazard a guess there are plenty of other factors at play in modern times too. Decline in quality of diet, added stress levels due to always being connected etc. So I guess I  asking, how did these studies control for outside factors? 

[Rich]

8 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

Honestly, the best answer is regulation on companies which is sorely lacking. Pretty much every business everywhere gets a subsidy at some point. Just make oil and gas companies fulfill their obligations to environmental safety.

Now how much of this is attributed to other factors as well? It wasn't that long ago lead was taken out of things, and I would hazard a guess there are plenty of other factors at play in modern times too. Decline in quality of diet, added stress levels due to always being connected etc. So I guess I  asking, how did these studies control for outside factors? 

It is still early, but there has been a number of studies that point to plastics (ultimately part of the oil economy) affecting male fertility.   More and more data is coming out on this.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7967748/

Moving to EV's is a great start, but we still need to move our economy away from plastics.   Some recent strides made in moving away from plastic straws and bags, but plastics are not good for the ecosystem at all.

[Mark F]

heres an example of the power of oil in Alberta.

 

"A doctor servicing the community of Fort Chipewyan, Alta. (Fort Chip) has been fired and said he was given no explanation as to why.

Dr. John O’Connor made international headlines when he first spoke out about elevated cancer rates in Northern Alberta communities and believed they were linked to tar sands activity from toxins leaking out into the surrounding land and water systems. A claim that was later supported by a study partially funded by Health Canada.

“I am in shock,” said O’Connor about the sudden termination. “I am stunned. I got chest pain when I heard this. I’m very sad.”"

In 2007, four years after O’Connor sounded the alarm regarding his concerns of a rare type of cancer he noticed trending among residents in Fort Chip, Health Canada accused him of engendering mistrust, blocking access to files, billing irregularities, and raising undue alarm in the community.

The professional misconduct charges threatened his medical license with the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons, however O’Connor was cleared of all charges minus raising undue alarm.

Then in March 2009, the residents of Fort Chip released a statement in support of O’Connor and demanded that the remaining charge against him be dismissed."

 

https://www.aptnnews.ca/national-news/alberta-doctor-found-higher-rates-cancer-first-nation-communities-fired-health-board/

 

at this time chevron has managed to jail a New York lawyer who successfully sued chevron for an Amazon Indian tribe, whose home was destoyed by chevron.

exxon was licking its chops over russian oil when trump was elected. So exxon ceo rex tillerson was appointed secretary of state under trump.

 

their power is unlimited as far as I can see. The destruction they are doing right now.... staggering.

Flooding right now in australia..... 1000 year flood, hitting sydney.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by Mark F