Osh is a Legend

[M.Silverback]

1 hour ago, WBBFanWest said:

Ummm, as far as I know, GM's pick their HC and the HC hires/fires all other coaches.  And I'm pretty sure that the HC decides the types/philosophies of those working under him.  I'm sure that a GM provides some insight, but because the actions of the assistant coaches directly affects the HC's livelihood,  it only goes to follow that the HC would want to make sure that the buck stops with him.  What you're describing results on a "double reporting" org chart where a person has two different bosses to report to.  Those just don't work.

I don't think there's "double reporting", or a carved in stone org chart. GM's and head coaches work collaboratively to various degrees in all sports. Some coaches, like Popovich and Belichick wield as much or more power than the GM's. Because they've earned that. In most cases, the GM is higher in the "org chart." HC's hire assistants and coordinators, but never in a vacuum. One because of their status in the organization. Two because who they hire may impact player personnel decisions for the GM. Masai Urjiri hired a couple of assistant coaches who were tight with Kawhi Leonard to appease Kawhi. I'm sure he ran it past Nick Nurse, but in the "here's what we're doing sense", but not in a "do you approve?" sense. Plus, let's say a GM has plans to go after a specific free agent. Maybe a top QB. You can bet that GM is going to discuss with the HC who would be a fit in terms of OC for that big investment before they hire one. No sense hiring LaPo if in a fantasy world Patrick Mahomes decides he wants to play in the CFL for the Bombers.

Vikings GM Rick Spielman hired Gary Kubiak as an "offensive consultant". Most reports indicate that this wasn't a Mike Zimmer HC decision, this was a GM "I need you to stay out of the offense, and possibly have a HC succession plan" decision by the GM.

HC's definitely seek out, talk to and recommend assistants. They may even be given the autonomy to hire some lower level ones outright - maybe the receivers or DB coaches. But, I'd say they definitely discuss coordinators or lead assistants with the GM's and get buy in pretty much every time, unless your're Pop or Belichek. Assistant coaches also often stay on after a HC is fired. The Raptors kept some after Dwane Casey. In fact the GM promoted one. 

[WBBFanWest]

1 minute ago, M.Silverback said:

I don't think there's "double reporting", or a carved in stone org chart. GM's and head coaches work collaboratively to various degrees in all sports.

I think that you're changing the goal posts in this discussion.  You initially suggested that GM's can hire/fire the coordinators to now saying that there is collaboration.  Of course there's collaboration but in the CFL, it's been my observation that HC's pick their staff except in extremely unusual circumstances, like joining a team part way through a season.  I acknowledge that this may change with the new rules regarding a salary cap for coaches.

[Stickem]

There comes a time when fans say to themselves...'enough us enough' and it starts getting louder and louder with each loss....You can never say that Mike O hasn't received enough time to build and coach a winner along with Walters....His record shows one....yeah... count em ....ONE lousy playoff win in 5 years....How could anyone expect that to continue with a different result...The record speaks for itself and unless O'Shea finds some magic somewhere and we end up in the Cup, I think his tenure here is over....Contract up....openings back east...time for a change of scenery for our hc I would say....Failing that expect a lot of season tix holders to walk away...Hope for the best and Mike finds an answer in these last games of the reg. season and the playoffs....if not the writing will become very clear on the wall

[M.Silverback]

1 minute ago, WBBFanWest said:

I think that you're changing the goal posts in this discussion.  You initially suggested that GM's can hire/fire the coordinators to now saying that there is collaboration.  Of course there's collaboration but in the CFL, it's been my observation that HC's pick their staff except in extremely unusual circumstances, like joining a team part way through a season.  I acknowledge that this may change with the new rules regarding a salary cap for coaches.

But, GM's can hire and fire any or all coaches on a staff. HC only. HC and all assistants. HC and some assistants. Do you think any HC arbitrarily hires or fires any assistants without advising GM's? I disagree, unless you're in that echelon of Pop or Belichick.

My initial "goal posts" were that this off season Kyle Walters needs to put on his GM hat and tell HC O'Shea that Hall and Lapo have to go (assuming the Bombers slide continues - disregard all of this if we somehow win the Grey Cup). If O'Shea agrees, they collaboratively look at options. Perhaps Walters gives O'Shea a bit more input into the final decision. If he disagrees, two options - fire O'Shea; or O'Shea stays on board, but Walters overrules his decision a la Rick Spielman with Gary Kubiak. 

[DR. CFL]

3 hours ago, 17to85 said:

And his team has more wins than any non Calgary team the last while. Thinking oshea has poor results is a grass is greener thing. 

Can we now revise that in terms of playoff wins vs everyone else?

[DR. CFL]

1 hour ago, 17to85 said:

I was theorising the other day that is this current slump not just a little bit similar to the one we went through with Nichols last season? Lots of punts and turnovers and just can't get any traction? Almost exactly the same time of year as well. 

If you want another sample pull up 2011 and the decline that year...great start and then fade. Teams watch hours of video and game plan against predicable play calling.

[blueandgoldguy]

3 hours ago, JuranBoldenRules said:

Look at his QB's, and look at his record, and his consistent results over a relatively long period, and now think about the rest of the market for head coaches.  He's a commodity.   It's not a black mark on the head coach to lose playoff games to better QB's, that's an organizational problem.

Who do you think is tops among available coaches for head coaching positions?  Rick Campbell?  Following an open revolt in Ottawa?  Tommy Condell?  He was garbage until June Junes taught him Run and Shoot, no guarantee he's going to be able run a whole organization.  Lapolice?  A guy who hasn't developed a half decent QB or playmaker in 3 football lifetimes.  Dinwiddie?  Kavis Reed?  Mark Washington?  Reinebold?  Mark Kilam?  Not likely after the disaster Calgary's special teams have been this season.

O'Shea is pretty clearly the top of the head coaching market if available.

Based on how this season is shaping up I would be fine with Lapo being shown the door, but I disagree that Lapo hasn't developed a half decent QB.  Durant emerged as a starter in 2008 and 2009 under Lapo's offensive schemes in Saskatchewan.  

Campbell was given a bad hand to deal with when his GM let many top free agents leave for other teams.  I don't anything about this whole revolt against him.  IF that's that case, perhaps he is gone.  If this revolt is merely speculation on your part, or is being highly exaggerated by a source, then he is likely to receive a second chance to right the ship in 2020.

[blueandgoldguy]

2 hours ago, 17to85 said:

I was theorising the other day that is this current slump not just a little bit similar to the one we went through with Nichols last season? Lots of punts and turnovers and just can't get any traction? Almost exactly the same time of year as well. 

Our offense faded ....at least the passing aspect of our offense faded in the second half of the 2017 season.  Nichols seemed to be throwing for 300 or nearly 300 yards per game in the first half but around Labor Day/Banjo Bowl his stats took a noticeable dip.

[BomberfanMKS]

On 2019-10-05 at 11:59 PM, Floyd said:

Going back a bit further...  I remember how Ritchie took Reinbold's disaster and turned them into a team after one season

 

Ritchie took over in 1999, had a mediocre team that didn't make the playoffs, 2000 had a mediocre team that was out in the first game of the playoffs (and got Khari some starting time) - Come 2001 Khari was ON FIRE and they almost won the cup based on Khari + Stegall + Roberts + Arland Bruce
 

Not to say Ritchie wasn't pretty good, but the turnaround in 2001 was also in part due to having a bunch of hall of fame guys in their prime on the team at the same time.

[blueandgoldguy]

2 minutes ago, BomberfanMKS said:

Ritchie took over in 1999, had a mediocre team that didn't make the playoffs, 2000 had a mediocre team that was out in the first game of the playoffs (and got Khari some starting time) - Come 2001 Khari was ON FIRE and they almost won the cup based on Khari + Stegall + Roberts + Arland Bruce
 

Not to say Ritchie wasn't pretty good, but the turnaround in 2001 was also in part due to having a bunch of hall of fame guys in their prime on the team at the same time.

No the team in 2000 turned around near the midway point when Khari supplanted Bell as the starting QB.  5-3 in the final 8 games of the season.  They also won in the east semi-final over the Ti-Cats before losing in the east final.

[BomberfanMKS]

7 minutes ago, blueandgoldguy said:

No the team in 2000 turned around near the midway point when Khari supplanted Bell as the starting QB.  5-3 in the final 8 games of the season.  They also won in the east semi-final over the Ti-Cats before losing in the east final.

yeh right - the point remains the same - Hall of Fame QB starts playing for Dave Ritchie and he starts to win.

Not saying Ritchie wasn't a good coach... but at least some of his success was having multiple hall of famers in their prime on the team through the 2000-2003 seasons (I'd consider Sellers a future hall of famer if he'd stayed in the league as well)

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, Stickem said:

There comes a time when fans say to themselves...'enough us enough' and it starts getting louder and louder with each loss....You can never say that Mike O hasn't received enough time to build and coach a winner along with Walters....His record shows one....yeah... count em ....ONE lousy playoff win in 5 years....How could anyone expect that to continue with a different result...The record speaks for itself and unless O'Shea finds some magic somewhere and we end up in the Cup, I think his tenure here is over....Contract up....openings back east...time for a change of scenery for our hc I would say....Failing that expect a lot of season tix holders to walk away...Hope for the best and Mike finds an answer in these last games of the reg. season and the playoffs....if not the writing will become very clear on the wall

Other than the fans here who don't want Mike to go, I think the majority of the Bomber fanbase won't be unhappy if he leaves. I think if O'Shea is given a new contract if we lose out in the playoffs there'll be a lot of season ticketholders who won't renew. 

[DR. CFL]

Like it or not ...agree or not coaches have a shelf life in all sports. Cal Murphy had passed his best before date....others have and it will continue to happen.

[wbbfan]

4 hours ago, BomberfanMKS said:

yeh right - the point remains the same - Hall of Fame QB starts playing for Dave Ritchie and he starts to win.

Not saying Ritchie wasn't a good coach... but at least some of his success was having multiple hall of famers in their prime on the team through the 2000-2003 seasons (I'd consider Sellers a future hall of famer if he'd stayed in the league as well)

Chicken or the egg. Before Ritchie we made terrible talent decisions that kept great players off the roster. remember when we chose reggie slack over anthony calvillo?

But yes, great coaches generally benefit more from great players then vice versa. Though some times, like joe montana and the 49ers offense, they benefited much more from having the west coast offense and bill walsh. 

[wbbfan]

16 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Other than the fans here who don't want Mike to go, I think the majority of the Bomber fanbase won't be unhappy if he leaves. I think if O'Shea is given a new contract if we lose out in the playoffs there'll be a lot of season ticketholders who won't renew. 

I could possibly see him getting a bit of a pass with onus being put on the front office for not getting a QB that can win the big game. But still very true.

5 minutes ago, DR. CFL said:

Like it or not ...agree or not coaches have a shelf life in all sports. Cal Murphy had passed his best before date....others have and it will continue to happen.

yep. and the coach that rebuilds the franchise into a respectable out fit is not automatically the one that will win you a championship. 

[SpeedFlex27]

6 hours ago, BomberfanMKS said:

yeh right - the point remains the same - Hall of Fame QB starts playing for Dave Ritchie and he starts to win.

Not saying Ritchie wasn't a good coach... but at least some of his success was having multiple hall of famers in their prime on the team through the 2000-2003 seasons (I'd consider Sellers a future hall of famer if he'd stayed in the league as well)

Hugh Campbell had Tom Wilkinson & Warren Moon playing for him & won 5 Grey Cups. Bud Grant had Ken Ploen. Frank Clair had Russ Jackson. Eagle Keys had Ron Lancaster. Great coaches had great players. Would Frank Clair have won 3 Grey Cups with Gary Wood? Eagle Keys never won in BC with Don Moorehead. Bud Grant never would have won with John Schneider.  Hugh campbell never would have won with Don Trull or Corey Colehour. Winning championships go hand in hand with HOF qbs.  All those coaches had multiple Hall Of Famers playing at other positions as well. Otherwise they never would have won. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[DR. CFL]

After the Mack disaster.....3/4 of the people of this site could have rebuilt this team....but ultimately it is about can you take the team to the next level?

[SpeedFlex27]

57 minutes ago, wbbfan said:

I could possibly see him getting a bit of a pass with onus being put on the front office for not getting a QB that can win the big game. But still very true.

yep. and the coach that rebuilds the franchise into a respectable out fit is not automatically the one that will win you a championship. 

As I stated earlier on another thread, see Ray Jauch. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[VoR]

Just a wee bit of trolling, but my 2cents-

I can only base on the history I know, but in comparison- Shivers and Barrett took over the Riders at the end of the 90's- a team that had brief flashes but zero consistency 

Over the next 6 years we were regularly more competitive,  but could never seem to get much over .500

2006, we had a stud RB, decent oline, star DE and LB, and again were 9-9

Tillman and Austin take over Dec 2006, 

And with a few tweaks to the roster deliver a grey cup in 2007

Sometimes change is necessary 

[Wanna-B-Fanboy]

1 hour ago, VoR said:

Just a wee bit of trolling, but my 2cents-

I can only base on the history I know, but in comparison- Shivers and Barrett took over the Riders at the end of the 90's- a team that had brief flashes but zero consistency 

Over the next 6 years we were regularly more competitive,  but could never seem to get much over .500

2006, we had a stud RB, decent oline, star DE and LB, and again were 9-9

Tillman and Austin take over Dec 2006, 

And with a few tweaks to the roster deliver a grey cup in 2007

Sometimes change is necessary 

And an opponent losing their QB in the east division final.

[VoR]

7 minutes ago, wanna-b-fanboy said:

And an opponent losing their QB in the east division final.

Oops ,  sorry,  had honestly not thought about that part of it 

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2019 by VoR

[Noeller]

I honestly feel sick to my stomach right now....no joke.

https://3downnation.com/2019/10/09/how-pinballs-hiring-could-affect-the-blue-bombers/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

"There’s also the fact that O’Shea isn’t under contract for next season. That’s not because the Bombers haven’t offered him a new contract — it’s because O’Shea chose not to commit to Winnipeg beyond 2019.

Turning down a contract extension — which he’s done multiple times, per source — could be a negotiating tactic, but the CFL’s operations cap prevents teams from spending lucrative amounts of money on coaches... "

[rebusrankin]

If we lose MOS, I hope that Miller makes an offer to Khari (not under contract past this year) that he can't refuse.

[M.O.A.B.]

I'm actually OK with O'Shea to leaving after this season. 6 seasons is more than enough chance to win the Cup. He can't say he was not given the opportunity. There's still a chance to make it happen though. 

 

[Noeller]

14 minutes ago, M.O.A.B. said:

I'm actually OK with O'Shea to leaving after this season. 6 seasons is more than enough chance to win the Cup. He can't say he was not given the opportunity. There's still a chance to make it happen though. 

 

This is one of the single dumbest things posted on this board in recent memory...