Week of Stamps @ Bombers

[TrueBlue4ever]

21 minutes ago, JCon said:

Let's take Flanders. Lapo was criticized for not getting him more involved. Well, what has he done since?

Lapo was criticized for not getting Matthews more involved. And, where is he now?

Bowman? What did he do after he left? 

Dom Davis. Look at him now!

Simonise. 

Lankford. 

 

Who stands out? 

Bowman may be the only arguable player who thrived after LaPo. However, in his one year with LaPo as his head coach, he did put up 925 yards and 6 TDs so he hardly suffered here. And his big issue was drops, not restrictive play-calling.

[JCon]

1 minute ago, Mark F said:

So everyone that’s been through here just sucks?

i don’t think so.

lankford actually been ok returner in bc

I don't know that everyone sucks but it's not like we have a ton of players that didn't work in the Lapo system that, all of sudden, excelled when they went elsewhere. 

Lankford was an ok returner here too. But he drops the ball (and Medlock gets them). Also, he hasn't been that good.

[JCon]

5 minutes ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

Bowman may be the only arguable player who thrived after LaPo. However, in his one year with LaPo as his head coach, he did put up 925 yards and 6 TDs so he hardly suffered here. And his big issue was drops, not restrictive play-calling.

Good point. I was thinking the recent history of Bowman 2.0. 

[GCn20]

1 hour ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

That is such a ridiculous comment. You say that LaPo did well only because he had great players in 2002 (I believe you said even you could have crafted a great offensive game plan with that talent). So when he does well (like 14 club records on offence in 2002) all the credit goes to the player, not him. But if a player does not do well, it's because LaPo has not "elevated" them, so he gets all the blame. Maybe, just maybe, the "talent" right now is not as earth shattering as some think.

But for the sake of argument, let's look at the talent LaPo has had in the past and now. In 2002, he took an MVP QB and that QB produced even better numbers than the year before and according to Milt Stegall should have won MOP that year too. He took an all-star receiver and got him to the greatest receiving season of that receiver's career and lifted him to MOP status and league records. He took a part-time running back and made him a star in the backfield, and the next year got him his first league rushing title. Also the 2 best receiving years of Roberts' career those 2 seasons.

He went to Saskatchewan and turned Darian Durant into an all-star and got them to the Grey Cup.

He came to Winnipeg and found a way in 2011 to keep Buck Pierce healthy long enough for Buck to have his most productive season ever and get to a Grey Cup. Like with Khari before him, once he lost his effective starting QB due to injury, the lesser talent at back-up hindered him.

Now that he is back, he has "elevated" Andrew Harris into bar none the best running back in the CFL. Harris had zero rushing titles and two 1,000 yard seasons before coming here, will get his 3rd consecutive 1,000 yard year (and second 1,300+ yard year), and his 3rd rushing title, on top of becoming the best receiving running back in CFL history in 2017. He took Matt Nichols and devised a system that minimized his weaknesses (average arm strength, low mobility) and fed off his strengths (passing accuracy, "game manager", low turnover risk) to create the most efficient QB in the CFL this year who had the team #1 in the CFL standings before he got hurt. But you expect the entire playbook to be thrown out to cater to a new QB who does little else but run the ball and hasn't shown he can pass very well rather than expect management to have as a back-up someone who can step into the existing system and execute it to relatively the same degree, like Calgary, Sask, and Hamilton did. And LaPo to a great extent has tweaked that playbook to incorporate more runs and option/pass from his QB. But having a QB who can't throw very well or get into his second or third progressions efficeiently does not seem to have gotten us very far.

So how about you tell us who has suffocated under LaPo only to have their obvious underdeveloped talents shine elsewhere? It is possible, but no one obvious springs to mind for me.

I'm not going to defend Lapo but we seriously need a heavy upgrade in talent on O. Our receiving corps is well below average, our OL is good but not great, our QB stable in bottom 3rd of the CFL. Only our RB is top notch and it's why we use him as much as we do. If anyone thinks we have the makings of an elite offence with a different coordinator they are vastly incorrect. We have some of the pieces but serious upgrades are needed.

[TrueBlue4ever]

48 minutes ago, Mark F said:

Flanders, wolktarski, Bailey, Augustine, lucky, this season. Lucky has one play they use for him.

peterman.

basically anyone other than the two I mentioned have done little. Can’t just be lousy players.

 

not sure thriving elsewhere matters, not too many of those from any team.

I would say thriving elsewhere matters most, as it gives an objective standard to measure the system here versus elsewhere, as opposed to a personal opinion as to who is above average or not. Flanders and Augustine both did well here when given the chance, but their restriction was being slotted behind Harris, not handcuffed due to LaPo's play-calling. Blame the depth chart and the head coach's roster decisions for them, not the OC play-calling.

As for the receivers, well hard to make a definitive statement on them, since we are run heavier than all other teams. But none of them have shown enough obvious game-breaking talent that they warrant a fundamental change in the playbook to get them the ball a dozen times a game and for us to change to a passing game. And our current QB/RB combo would have a lot to do with the decision to avoid the pass, no? Darvin Adams was able to put up a 1,000 yard season in this offence, Woli is a very good blocker and runs decent routes, but he isn't a burner, has dropped a few this year, and doesn't look like he is being ignored despite getting great separation from DBs this year (because he really isn't busting coverages). Bailey was not being given a chance to start, again a roster decision and not a play-calling one. And since his QB has been the pass-averse Streveler, maybe his running QB has something to do with his lack of production (in limited sample size). Whitehead for all his speed does not seem to get separation much on long downfield routes (from the iso replays I have seen). So lousy may be an exaggeration, but I would say above-average is as well. LaPo runs the offence based on what he has to work with, and I believe pretty much everyone thought our receiving corps was sub-par going into the season and crying out for a Matthews, Zylstra or a Duke Williams to get picked up. Not sure where all these underused stars suddenly materialized from in the eyes of the fans.

Sometimes the most obvious explanation is the right one. We were 7-2 with a #1 scoring and efficiency, ball-control style offence (not flashy, but effective). Then our QB got hurt. We have struggled to win since then. With our back-up. Not all his fault, as the D has collapsed at times. But the fundamental offensive change was at QB. That result doesn't fit the agenda of many who wanted Nichols gone from the start of the year and figured Strev was the guy to lead us to the promised land. He has not lived up to the hype, so people look for a scapegoat to save face and credibility in their opinions, and have pinned it on LaPo. He is not above criticism himself, but axing him is not the only obvious solution here, as so many wish it would be.

[Mr Dee]

Is that the defining point of who’s good? Leaving the Bombers and starring somewhere else? Every team has their own good signings, they don’t need any of ours. The difference is those other teams find out, sooner than later, who can cut it and who can’t. The Bombers can’t do that because we really don’t know. And that’s because of the system they play in. 
You can’t tell me Wolitarsky wouldn’t shine with more receptions. Bailey, Lawler, don’t get nearly enough chances because we’re locked into what we do.

Now, I don’t mind a running attack, but you have to leave the playbook open or you’ll get jammed, and jammed we have gotten. 
Undeveloped talent does not have to leave us and shine elsewhere. What if they’re just remaining under-developed for obvious reasons?

Nobody can tell me who’s good or not good through what we’ve seen so far. We only have hints, and hints aren’t doing our passing game any favours. 

[GCn20]

23 minutes ago, Mark F said:

So everyone that’s been through here just sucks?

i don’t think so.

lankford actually been ok returner in bc

we saw what flanderssssss could do when given a chance

mathewd scored two td against us. For Montreal.

 

 

Not everyone has sucked that has been through here but most have been average at best. Wolitarsky, Demski, etc are not star players and never will be. They are not being held back by our offensive system. Every team has a dynamic receiver or two and we are unable to get that on our team. Adams was very good but his body is breaking down on him. Without a true threat at number one and two receiver the passing game fizzles. We simply do not have an upper echelon receiver by any CFL standard and that is compounded by not having good enough QBs as well. Nichols can get the job done but he will never elevate his receivers like a Reilly does.

[SpeedFlex27]

2 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

Is that the defining point of who’s good? Leaving the Bombers and starring somewhere else? Every team has their own good signings, they don’t need any of ours. The difference is those other teams find out, sooner than later, who can cut it and who can’t. The Bombers can’t do that because we really don’t know. And that’s because of the system they play in. 
You can’t tell me Wolitarsky wouldn’t shine with more receptions. Bailey, Lawler, don’t get nearly enough chances because we’re locked into what we do.

Now, I don’t mind a running attack, but you have to leave the playbook open or you’ll get jammed, and jammed we have gotten. 
Undeveloped talent does not have to leave us and shine elsewhere. What if they’re just remaining under-developed for obvious reasons?

Nobody can tell me who’s good or not good through what we’ve seen so far. We only have hints, and hints aren’t doing our passing game any favours. 

When we waste player talents & we certainly do that offensively then that is all on LaPo. One hundred & ten percent. Hoping things change this off season. 

[GCn20]

4 minutes ago, Mr Dee said:

Is that the defining point of who’s good? Leaving the Bombers and starring somewhere else? Every team has their own good signings, they don’t need any of ours. The difference is those other teams find out, sooner than later, who can cut it and who can’t. The Bombers can’t do that because we really don’t know. And that’s because of the system they play in. 
You can’t tell me Wolitarsky wouldn’t shine with more receptions. Bailey, Lawler, don’t get nearly enough chances because we’re locked into what we do.

Now, I don’t mind a running attack, but you have to leave the playbook open or you’ll get jammed, and jammed we have gotten. 
Undeveloped talent does not have to leave us and shine elsewhere. What if they’re just remaining under-developed for obvious reasons?

Nobody can tell me who’s good or not good through what we’ve seen so far. We only have hints, and hints aren’t doing our passing game any favours. 

Bailey and Lawler have been getting the most touches of anyone over the past 3 games.

[JCon]

All of this ignores the fact that we have the best RB and running game in the league. 

[TBURGESS]

I agree that sometimes the obvious answer is the right one, but Nichols going down isn't the obvious answer.

The obvious answer is we played bad teams in the first half of the year. Now that we're playing better teams, our offence and defence are getting exposed for who they really are.

[GCn20]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

When we waste player talents & we certainly do that offensively then that is all on LaPo. One hundred & ten percent. Hoping things change this off season. 

Be more specific. What talents are we wasting? Drew Wolitarsky? Hit and miss all season when touches go his way. Demski? Just not a very consistent performer at all even with the Riders. Lawler and Bailey...getting as many touches as a rookie realistically should. Whitehead...great athlete and KR but a well below average receiver.

[SpeedFlex27]

Just now, gcn11 said:

Not everyone has sucked that has been through here but most have been average at best. Wolitarsky, Demski, etc are not star players and never will be. They are not being held back by our offensive system. Every team has a dynamic receiver or two and we are unable to get that on our team. Adams was very good but his body is breaking down on him. Without a true threat at number one and two receiver the passing game fizzles. We simply do not have an upper echelon receiver by any CFL standard and that is compounded by not having good enough QBs as well. Nichols can get the job done but he will never elevate his receivers like a Reilly does.

Wolitarski will  never be a star player? I disagree. He has never been used the way he would be in other offenses.  He'd be a thousand yard receiver if he didn't play in the stinking pile of hot garbage offense we have now. 

[GCn20]

1 minute ago, TBURGESS said:

I agree that sometimes the obvious answer is the right one, but Nichols going down isn't the obvious answer.

The obvious answer is we played bad teams in the first half of the year. Now that we're playing better teams, our offence and defence are getting exposed for who they really are.

That is your opinion.

[GCn20]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

Wolitarski will  never be a star player? I disagree. He has never been used the way he would be in other offenses.  He'd be a thousand yard receiver if he didn't play in the stinking pile of hot garbage offense we have now. 

Wolitarsky is a dependable possession receiver. Nothing more. He may develop into a 1000 yard guy but this year he has struggled to get open. Last year he had a coming out party, but he is not a guy that will ever take the top off coverages or win a lot of battles in man to man. He needs other receivers to create space for him and we don't have those guys right now.

Edited October 23, 2019 by gcn11

[SpeedFlex27]

2 minutes ago, JCon said:

All of this ignores the fact that we have the best RB and running game in the league. 

At the expense of everyone else. Other teams can run the  ball & pass effectively. I think our top receiver is #22 catching the ball. Why can't we have both thousand yard rushers & receivers?

[17to85]

2 hours ago, TrueBlue4ever said:

That is such a ridiculous comment. You say that LaPo did well only because he had great players in 2002 (I believe you said even you could have crafted a great offensive game plan with that talent). So when he does well (like 14 club records on offence in 2002) all the credit goes to the player, not him. But if a player does not do well, it's because LaPo has not "elevated" them, so he gets all the blame. Maybe, just maybe, the "talent" right now is not as earth shattering as some think.

But for the sake of argument, let's look at the talent LaPo has had in the past and now. In 2002, he took an MVP QB and that QB produced even better numbers than the year before and according to Milt Stegall should have won MOP that year too. He took an all-star receiver and got him to the greatest receiving season of that receiver's career and lifted him to MOP status and league records. He took a part-time running back and made him a star in the backfield, and the next year got him his first league rushing title. Also the 2 best receiving years of Roberts' career those 2 seasons.

He went to Saskatchewan and turned Darian Durant into an all-star and got them to the Grey Cup.

He came to Winnipeg and found a way in 2011 to keep Buck Pierce healthy long enough for Buck to have his most productive season ever and get to a Grey Cup. Like with Khari before him, once he lost his effective starting QB due to injury, the lesser talent at back-up hindered him.

Now that he is back, he has "elevated" Andrew Harris into bar none the best running back in the CFL. Harris had zero rushing titles and two 1,000 yard seasons before coming here, will get his 3rd consecutive 1,000 yard year (and second 1,300+ yard year), and his 3rd rushing title, on top of becoming the best receiving running back in CFL history in 2017. He took Matt Nichols and devised a system that minimized his weaknesses (average arm strength, low mobility) and fed off his strengths (passing accuracy, "game manager", low turnover risk) to create the most efficient QB in the CFL this year who had the team #1 in the CFL standings before he got hurt. But you expect the entire playbook to be thrown out to cater to a new QB who does little else but run the ball and hasn't shown he can pass very well rather than expect management to have as a back-up someone who can step into the existing system and execute it to relatively the same degree, like Calgary, Sask, and Hamilton did. And LaPo to a great extent has tweaked that playbook to incorporate more runs and option/pass from his QB. But having a QB who can't throw very well or get into his second or third progressions efficeiently does not seem to have gotten us very far.

So how about you tell us who has suffocated under LaPo only to have their obvious underdeveloped talents shine elsewhere? It is possible, but no one obvious springs to mind for me.

With the bold you are not doing a whole lot to convince me that Lapo doesn't just ride his star players as far as they'll take him... 

[JCon]

Just now, SpeedFlex27 said:

At the expense of everyone else. Other teams can run the  ball & pass effectively. I think our top receiver is #22 catching the ball. Why can't we have both thousand yard rushers & receivers?

But we don't have a 1,000 yard RB, we have 1,300 yard RB. 

[SpeedFlex27]

1 minute ago, gcn11 said:

Wolitarsky is a dependable possession receiver. Nothing more. He may develop into a 1000 yard guy but this year he has struggled to get open.

He's struggled because of LaPo. So, has every qb & receiver. This offense is one of the worst in the past 20 years. We're just lucky our defense & ST's have helped out with touchdowns of their own. 

[17to85]

It's a damning statement about our offense that Harris is far and away the leading receiver in terms of catches.

[SpeedFlex27]

25 minutes ago, JCon said:

But we don't have a 1,000 yard RB, we have 1,300 yard RB. 

That hasn't helped us much. If having a 1,300 yard running back means a bunch of 400 & 500 yard receivers then no thanks. The offense is too unbalanced.  We have no vertical passing attack. Defenses don't have to worry about us attacking the field. Don't know why we can't have both but we don't. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by SpeedFlex27

[sweep the leg]

2 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

 He'd be a thousand yard receiver if he didn't play in the stinking pile of hot garbage offense we have now. 

Speedflex with the hot take. 1k yards would have him near the top 10 and the best Canadian receiver in the league.

[HardCoreBlue]

4 minutes ago, 17to85 said:

It's a damning statement about our offense that Harris is far and away the leading receiver in terms of catches.

Wonder how many of those catches are of the check down variety . . .

[JCon]

4 minutes ago, SpeedFlex27 said:

That hasn't helped us much. If having a 1,300 yard running back means a bunch of 400 & 500 yard receivers then no thanks. The offense is too unbalanced.  We have no vertical passing attack. Defenses don't have to worry about us attacking the field. Don't know why we can't have both but we don't. 

We're second in points per game. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by JCon

[SpeedFlex27]

9 minutes ago, sweep the leg said:

Speedflex with the hot take. 1k yards would have him near the top 10 and the best Canadian receiver in the league.

A receiver is a terrible thing to waste.